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ahwoo
Jun 6, 2006, 7:50 AM
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In reply to: Making the pdf's available online (or putting it online in some form). I feel that would be worse than making a book and selling it because then you would give people the decision of (free vs. 35 bucks). I know very few people that would spend the 35 bucks just because.
topos for my area are free online, but i went ahead and bought a hard copy. it's nice not having to worry about your topos flying off in a light breeze. it's always nice to have. free's not always better.
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mdude
Jun 6, 2006, 10:06 AM
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This tread is full of elitism. Holy cow. Caught Inside's hypocrisy is amazing.
In reply to: Hmm, sounds like you're making a little too much of the whole 'elitism' thing. It's not about 'climbing hard' but if you've only been climbing for a year, chances are you've pretty much learned to climb at this area. So you've been climbing there on weekend days for a year? There are likely people who are much more local to the area, have climbed there a ton more days than you, know the other locals, etc. Can you say the same? And I guess climbing ability does has something to do with it. Let's say you climb .11a reasonably well, and can flail a bit on harder stuff. What percentage of the routes there would you say you can climb? If you can only climb 50% or so (made this number up) of the routes at the crag, are you really a qualified source of information?
Read it again.
What is all this crap that "YOU HAVE TO EARN IT" in my eyes. Lots of eyes out there.
Who gets to determine who is "the most qualified". Seams like most people that have made a post here.
I believe in the learning curve but to a point. Quick and sharp point.
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mdude
Jun 6, 2006, 10:23 AM
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I LOVE guidebooks. I have seen the biggest collections and have a great one of my own.
American Alpine Club
Putnam's in Flagstaff, AZ
Gordon's in J-tree
I have every guide to Yosemite. That's right 2 of the red guide 1964. Awesome stuff out there.
Let us take a closer look at guide books.
I there is an author that has climbed every route in their guide or even 90% I would be AMAZED. Truly.
Randy Vogel sure hasn't climbed all the routes in J-Tree. Todd Swain said in the beginning of his Red Rocks guides that he sure has not climbed even 1/2 of the routes in his guide.
Look at the New Red Rocks Guide by Roxanna Brock and Jared Mcmillen. That book is not five star and they sure did get most of there info from the other guides before them. Very blatant.
I believe that Chris McNamara said he climbed all the routes in his first SUPERTOPO guide. Any others out there.
Some guides are good. Some bad.
Some have a bunch of info and some are penciled lines and numbers. There are so many guides that are skipping the FAs and in depth history now. If one guide already has it then the next does not.
Give the people a choice. Stripped down or coffee table reading.
Guides are not MOVE by MOVE instructions.
How about this so called research that everyone talks about. Do you mean REsearch or a new search.
Writing a guide is not rocket science. It is simple notes, trail map, and numbers.
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mdude
Jun 6, 2006, 10:47 AM
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Sounds like a gang out there.
Got to get your street cred before you get your colors.
I bet that climbing every weekend is more than most on this website and through out the climbing world.
52/365=.14
Does anyone do a hobby 14 percent of the time/days? A minority
Sleep = 33% if 8 hrs a day and who gets that
Work = 35% of days if 5 days a week
Surf Internet = to much
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happiegrrrl
Jun 6, 2006, 12:02 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: you havent been climbing long enough to know what it takes to make a guide book.....i'd wait and listen to the guy above me. Just so you know "the guy above you" is a girl. sorry about that, i hope i didnt offend you. i was just using a general that "guy" term. i didnt see who it was that wrote it, just what they wrote. In the future ill look at the person before giving him or her a gender classification.
I wasn't offended at the guy reference. Just assumed you didn't look at the username as you said. I think Tradrenn was just pointing it out since he knows me.
I will say, however, that a person I climb with has called me "dude!" when he's talking to me.....more than once. Though, in some respects, it is cool because it tells me that the dynamic is based on personality and not gender. But I do admit, it doesn't flow when I hear it. I "notice" it. So, guys - If you're calling girls "dude," just imagine how you would feel if your friend who's a woman causally said something like "Awesome move, chica!" to you......
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happiegrrrl
Jun 6, 2006, 12:38 PM
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I guess I would be one of those being thrown into the "elitist" pit? If so, I will point out something that I have pointed out, asap, to everyone that climbs, when I am first getting to know them. Don't wnt any misrepresentations of myself, however unintentional.
This is my 3rd season climbing.
Some people make an assumpition that I have been around longer; I attribute that to a few things:
- I have been lucky to have a work gig that allows me freedom. Got about 100 days out in 2005, 30 on the road. This year it's turning out to be about the same.
- I am intrigued with the historical and cultural side of climbing and can converse fluently(to a point) on some aspects of related topics.
- I like to travel. Though Jtree is my crag away from crag, I am interested in other areas, and know a tiny bit about a lot of different climbing areas in the world. I do a lot of reading.....
- I volunteer. Doing that is rewarding in and of itself, and B/Saint - I would HIGHLY suggest that route for you, as a first step in your efforts.
The volunteer thing has some side effects, too, in that you will get to know the locals - the ones you will NEED in order to make a credible guidebook, if you decide to pursue the thing.
It's a shame that people are calling out others here as "elitist." And sort of funny. They are simply stating basic information that is well known to people who have been around long enough to have gone through their own growing pains.
I THINK that the best suggestion for action has been that you contact the current guidebook author, and offer to volunteer. You will learn SO much, if you actually provide valuable assistance. That means - you're available to help consistently, the value of what you provide is greater than the effort expended to include you in the projects, you're enjyable to be around in those circumstances.
This avenue may be a more humble path than attempting to author a book with your name on the front, but if you are seriously wanting to do the community a service, it is a more reasonable one. Making a guidebook is a huge undertaking, and chances are, if you really do hope to publish something - it will be more than you are capable of. Sorry if that offends you; it's just the simple truth, and not an elitist statement. You have said that you have some time/finance issues........two items you're going to need, for the project of writing a guidebook.
But - in volunteering, you WILL make an impact. And the effect will be apparent immediately, to yourself, if no one else. Plus, you will learn a LOT. You will probably meet the people who have creted the history in the areas you climb in, and you will meet a lot of the inetrmediates and new people too. You will become part of that community in a more meaningful way. AND - you will learn what goes into the work that is involved in these community services form people who have already gone the route! Much better, imo, than having to ask the rc.com "elitists" to point out the travails and pitfalls you're likely to encounter......
By the way, B/S and others accusing folks of elitism - and this is a rhetorical question; please do not answer, except to yourselves - DO you volunteer in any capacity, within your climbing community? If you do, that is great. If not - maybe - just maybe - that is why you misinterprate some of the things said as being elitist.
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chossmonkey
Jun 6, 2006, 2:12 PM
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In reply to: And since climbing experience and level of climbing seem to be so important, please tell me how long do I need to climb (and how often per week/month should I climb) in order to achieve status. And how hard do I need to climb? Since I'm not sure I'll ever climb 5.13 can I get by with just 5.12c/d or something like that? Also do I need to be able to onsight at that level to be able to write/design or will redpoints count? And pleaes don't just ball park it, this is serious stuff and I need accurate figures.
If you need to ask someone if you are ready to write a guide book, you are NOT ready to do so. A climbing guide is more than numbers and names, it is record of climbing history.
You should be able to climb a majority of the routes you will be reporting on. For the other 15-20% of the routes you can't do you need to know the people who have repeated them and the people who put them up. Even if you can climb the routes you should make every attempt to talk with the F.A.'s and the people who have done the routes.
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marc
Jun 6, 2006, 2:32 PM
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What I see here is a young guy who asked the question expecting an answer, but received one opposite to his expectations.
Boondock - perhaps its best to take the kind advice offered? Get the latest version of Illustrator, create beautiful and accurate topos, look at cutting-edge guides (see Rockfax for this), work with the current author, stick around the place long enough to become knowledgable and competent, find and develop your own crags, and don't worry about rushing.
Guides take a lot of work and its easy to put out a crap product. Use your time to climb/explore/research/collaborate.
M (author of 2 guidebooks and contributor to another 3)
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boondock_saint
Jun 6, 2006, 2:59 PM
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I wasn't asking if I am ready to write a guide book. I will most likely start making a version for myself and I'll see where it goes from there.
Part of the reason I didn't really consider volunteering is the commitment factor. Perhaps I will never get more then 10% of the book done. If I'm doing it for myself .. oh well ... I can always tear out the history pages of the current one. However, if I have volunteered my services, then I would feel really really bad about backing out for whatever reason. (Please don't write how I shouldn't feel bad since I am volunteering, it's just the way I am and I'd be very unhappy if put in that situation.)
So the question should have been. If I made a book for myself and I actually finished it, and it actually turned out good, would it be a bad idea to offer it to others while another (very good book) exists??
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crimp2bfree
Jun 6, 2006, 3:47 PM
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double
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crimp2bfree
Jun 6, 2006, 3:49 PM
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If you haven't talked to the guide book author and don't feel comfortable doing so that is proof alone that you are not qualified. You're gonna have to talk to him at sometime because I bet he put up a lot of the routes you want to write about. A published guidebook is lot more than maps and route descriptions. Guides are volumes of history that are used to guide management descisions. It is somewhat common for authors to omit or even provide incorrect information for reasons of safety and politics. Do you have a good understanding of these issues?
Also after climbing a year do you lead trad? One of the most important things for a guide to do is let me know is that I am going to be scared out of my mind on this route or if I need some special piece of gear. (And don't argue that that is innapropriate beta because your publishing the LAZY man's guide).
So the best thing you can do is start the damn thing. It won't be ready for many years, but you can start taking notes, start building the collection of knowledge. When it's ready to be published you won't need to ask some internet forum, the So Ill climbing community will ask you for it because you are the guy with years worth or route notes and actively involved in the community. Oh and at that point you just might feel like including some history... It's not a elitist thing, it's about actually understanding what guidebooks do.
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caughtinside
Jun 6, 2006, 4:34 PM
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In reply to: Let us take a closer look at guide books. I there is an author that has climbed every route in their guide or even 90% I would be AMAZED. Truly. Randy Vogel sure hasn't climbed all the routes in J-Tree. Todd Swain said in the beginning of his Red Rocks guides that he sure has not climbed even 1/2 of the routes in his guide. Look at the New Red Rocks Guide by Roxanna Brock and Jared Mcmillen. That book is not five star and they sure did get most of there info from the other guides before them. Very blatant. I believe that Chris McNamara said he climbed all the routes in his first SUPERTOPO guide. Any others out there.
Sure, I bet Randy hasn't climbed all the routes in Jtree. But I bet you he has climbed most of the good ones, and knows a ton of Josh locals, and get good info from them. How long has he been climbing there?
Never climbed at RR, don't know the Swain guide. But how long has he been climbing there?
Yeah, all the supertopo guides (about 5 of them? RR, Yos, Walls, TMeadows, AK), all routes have been climbed by the authors.
Anyway, here is a story. There briefly existed a Falcon guide called Rock CLimbs of NorthWest California. The author documented crags all over NW CA. He was a local at none of these spots. Basically, he showed up, ripped off topos, drew bad topos, got tons of route info just plain wrong. Locals from all these areas complained, as did those who bought the guide when they found out what a piece of shit it was. Falcon pulled it.
So whatever. If you want to write a guide, write a guide. But you can expect that the people who have climbed there for years, put up the routes, built the trails, etc, will wonder what you are doing. And yeah, they will likely be miffed if you show up, and start writing a guide about a place they feel somewhat possessive of without their imput.
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helios
Jun 6, 2006, 4:45 PM
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Boonie, when you mentioned last week about coming out with a new guidebook, I had some of the same problems people have brought up here especially stepping on Eric' Ulners toes. He's done so much for the climbing community in So. Ill. And his guide is nothing if not complete.
Their are only two 'problems' with the guidebook, as I see it, that you could improve on. Removing all the history and superfluous photos. And adding better maps and photos of routes.
I just fixed problem one with my copy about 2 days ago, rebound the book without the history section. This history is interesting though, and I rebound that section to keep at home. But this ain't enough for a new book.
I'd like to see you do something about the maps and photos, but I would say to just get going on it and see where it takes you. I'm just annoyed by the puppy dog footprints that Eric used for the trails in the guidebook. I just like accurate maps, not cute maps. Other than that, it is a complete guide to So Ill.
I can envision a 10 page pdf download of nothing but maps/photos of Jackson Falls. But I wouldn't post it anywhere until you 1) Finish it. Because you might not realize how much effort it will take away from climbing. 2) Talk with Ulner. and 3) find out who would want it. Maybe even contact dr. topo and see if you could update their offering?
Oh, and I would guess you have to at least climb 5.12 before you can write a guidebook. :lol:
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boondock_saint
Jun 6, 2006, 5:36 PM
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Hahahaha. You little shitbird :lol: you were all about it last week. The GPS cliff outline was YOUR idea. (And I too have much respect for Ulner and I'd hate to step on his toes.)
Yes the dogpaws and the stretched fonts are like rusty nails in my eyes. But I could live with that if at least the routes were easily located.
Helios has put little tabs on his guide book for different sections. Why? Because the book follows no logic. From one page to the next you find yourelf in areas that are 30 minutes away.
I guess this issue is just much more practical and objective in my mind, and it seems to be very personal to most of you. I really do not care who's made the topo as long as it works. I love the history part but I think it should be in a different book appropriately titled "So Ill climbing History" and I would honestly consider buying and reading it.
I was mostly interested in taking pictures of the rock and putting routes to go with it. But that felt like a rip-off to me so the idea of going the extra step was born.
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dbrayack
Jun 6, 2006, 5:39 PM
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Just do it, do an online guide
-Danno
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crimp2bfree
Jun 6, 2006, 5:45 PM
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Well it sounds like much of the problem is with the topos and maps. Go ahead and do just those, put them in PDF's that are formated to tape into the current guidebook. Set them up to work with the current guide, as long as its free and better I don't think many will complain. It's not a replacement, just an addition. Offer them to the author to use in the next edition.
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helios
Jun 6, 2006, 5:46 PM
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In reply to: Hahahaha. You little s--- :lol: you were all about it last week. The GPS cliff outline was YOUR idea.
Yeah, but didn't you hear, if you use GPS, people will die!!! :lol:
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mdude
Jun 6, 2006, 6:32 PM
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boondock_saint
Don't let others treat you like a 3rd grader telling you that you are no good, that you can't do it, watch out for the locals.
Just crap
Just do it. That's right NIKE up.
I am sure you have something to offer. Maybe you are an expert at publishing, graphics, maps, the piano????
You might have a geography degree and we don't know it.
Build it and they will come.
Brilliant minds have always had to overcome adversity.
Lots of people here are saying that making a guide is like writing a textbook.
It requires effort but come on IT IS NOT THAT HARD.
Helios
In reply to: Their are only two 'problems' with the guidebook, as I see it, that you could improve on. Removing all the history and superfluous photos. And adding better maps and photos of routes.
Looks like big things to me.
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happiegrrrl
Jun 6, 2006, 6:43 PM
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1) GPS coordinates are being used in books. Some people find them useful, especially in areas like Wonderland of Rocks (Jtree) where it's difficult to visually orient yourself.
2) "Dog Paws" and fonts you don't care for - When was the guide you refer to published? Times change, and what was "very cool" at one point seems archaic down the road. Even so - you can bet that there will be people who will have things about your choices they will not agree with too.
3) Most guidebooks include a (climbing)history of the area. It helps one to find their place in the scheme of things (and maybe have a little respect for those who have done all the work that they may enjoys the fruits of the labor). It tells of the important testpieces for their day, climbs put up by important climbers visiting from other areas and such. But, if one thinks all that matters is being able to locate their climb, I can see how this would seem uneccessary.
An interesting point - guides were originally created NOT for the locals, but for those visiting the area from distant places. The local climbers knew all the routes, as they were usually the ones putting them up. They would spread the information verbally. But people coming from, for example, the Gunks to Yosemite, with limited available time, would not get in as much climbing as possible because they were unfamiliar. The guide books were simply a courtesy, and it was expected that a person would certainly be able to find their way around without them.
Imo, a guide with no history is a guide with no soul.
B/S - you got good advice/information here. Go start your project now, if that is what you have decided. Doesn't sound to me like you're going to have to worry about getting into any real trouble. By the time you finish the work(if it is any good, I mean) you will have learned an extensive amount, simply through trial and error, and the school of hard knocks will probably have given you at least an Associates degree in humility.
Here....I'll even help you - A good time to take cliff pictures is after the leaves have come off the trees. That way, you can see them.....
Let us know how things come along, now.
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mcernie
Jun 6, 2006, 7:33 PM
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In reply to: i don't know what the so ill book is like, but if you want to see an AMAZING guide book, well worth every penny i payed for it, check out Ray Ellington's ne Red River Gorge guide book. Brilliant. so nice, that i might by a copy to keep at home and keep nice, and a copy to keep in my pack (nasty).
i would have to agree. one of the best guide books i've used. color photos of the crags are very helpful. ray (and any folks that may have helped him) did a good job of relating the routes to a prominent feature at the crag, on or off the wall. has made it easier to find the climbs you're looking for. i can only imagine the amount of work needed for this kind of detail.
my 2 cents: do it for yourself and your friends. if the demand for your new book arises from others in your climbing community, cross that bridge then.
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boondock_saint
Jun 6, 2006, 7:40 PM
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In reply to: Imo, a guide with no history is a guide with no soul.
I agree with you 100% hence the original questions. I know I can make a better visual guide but for me to include history and stuff would pretentious and IMO downright rude, since I don't know it. Making a map and saying here's a 5.10c route with 5 bolts and anchors is not rocket science. I would strongly encourage people to get his book but I would just like something that's more practical for myself. Get it? And maybe others would too. Like I said, I loved reading the history, but let's be real: If you removed all the action shots or let's say HALF of the action shots you would have 70 or so pages for the guide. The history is like 100 pages. How many guide books do you own where the history part is bigger than the actual guide part??? I could be way wrong, but it doesn't sound like the norm.
As for the dogpaws and stuff, I think it was published pretty recently. It's typical stuff I see home-computre-designer-wanne-be's do all the time.
I think I'll start collecting images of routes that arent completely obscured by trees and go from there.
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boondock_saint
Jun 6, 2006, 7:47 PM
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In reply to: Imo, a guide with no history is a guide with no soul.
I agree with you 100% hence the original questions. I know I can make a better visual guide but for me to include history and stuff would pretentious and IMO downright rude, since I don't know it. Making a map and saying here's a 5.10c route with 5 bolts and anchors is not rocket science. I would strongly encourage people to get his book but I would just like something that's more practical for myself. Get it? And maybe others would too. Like I said, I loved reading the history, but let's be real: If you removed all the action shots or let's say HALF of the action shots you would have 70 or so pages for the guide. The history is like 100 pages. How many guide books do you own where the history part is bigger than the actual guide part??? I could be way wrong, but it doesn't sound like the norm.
As for the dogpaws and stuff, I think it was published pretty recently. It's typical stuff I see home-computre-designer-wanne-be's do all the time.
I think I'll start collecting images of routes that arent completely obscured by trees and go from there.
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tslater
Jun 6, 2006, 8:40 PM
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I am an author so here is my opinion.
I think the answer is very simple...
If you have to ask these questions here then you shouldn't be writing a guidebook.
Give yourself 5 years in this area and you'll answer all these questions for yourself.
Also, you can't imagine the energy, effort, time, commitment it takes to do a guide. You're looking at at least a year, probably more.
And you must remember that future guides are usually built on the shoulders of those that came before. Just the fact that someone made "mistakes" on the guide you were talking about, means that maybe the next one will be better because someone else was willing to give it a go.
There is a factor of respect here.
You will not be able to please everyone. Not everyone is "practical" like you. Some don't mind carrying around the 2 oz. of history in the book.
When you are ready to do a book, ask these questions:
1. Am I willing to devote a year or two?
2. Who is going to pay the thousands of dollars to PROFESSIONALLY DESIGN the guide so that it is print ready?
3. Who is going to pay the thousands of dollars to PRINT the guide?
4. Am I one of the best candidates to do this new guide (are you a major player at all the areas... lots of FA's etc?)
5. Are you ready to have someone come along and tell you that YOUR guide sucks and that they're are going to do another one?
It might be more respectful, and wiser, to start doing some photo work, research, drawing, etc. and THEN maybe when this other guide is near the end of its run, THEN print another one.
(This post was edited by tslater on Aug 25, 2009, 3:26 PM)
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guangzhou
Jun 7, 2006, 12:32 AM
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In reply to: Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:40 pm You have 5 votes left. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am an author so here is my opinion. I think the answer is very simple... If you have to ask these questions here then you shouldn't be writing a guidebook. Give yourself 5 years in this area and you'll answer all these questions for yourself. Also, you can't imagine the energy, effort, time, commitment it takes to do a guide. You're looking at at least a year, probably more. And you must remember that future guides are usually built on the shoulders of those that came before. Just the fact that someone made "mistakes" on the guide you were talking about, means that maybe the next one will be better because someone else was willing to give it a go. There is a factor of respect here. You will not be able to please everyone. Not everyone is "practical" like you. Some don't mind carrying around the 2 oz. of history in the book. When you are ready to do a book, ask these questions: 1. Am I willing to devote a year or two? 2. Who is going to pay the thousands of dollars to PROFESSIONALLY DESIGN the guide so that it is print ready? 3. Who is going to pay the thousands of dollars to PRINT the guide? 4. Am I on of the best candidates to do this new guide (are you a major player... lots of FA's etc?) 5. Are you ready to have someone come along and tell you that YOUR guide sucks and that they're are going to do another one? It might be more respectful, and wiser, to start doing some photo work, research, drawing, etc. and THEN maybe when this other guide is near its run, THEN print another one.
I have authored a couple too, and I agree completely.
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