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zionvier
Jun 27, 2007, 10:37 PM
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duckbuster_13 wrote: Check out road bike helmets. While you definitely won't gain any style points, many road cyclists... especially tri-atheletes are in an aero position which forces them to look "up" during the ride. Subsequently, most road bike helmets have pretty decent clearance for vertical visibility. Also, road bike helmets are probably the most ventilated you're likely to find. the negatives? ventilation means you're exposing your scalp to smaller rocks in the event of a rockfall... or potentially big sharp ones.
Personally, I would not want to wear my road bike helmet when rock climbing. You're right about them having more visibility when looking "up" since you're basically doing that on a road bike when you're leaned over, but the helmet is made of foam, where rock climbing helmets are made from a hard plastic.
hard plastic will hopefully deflect objects, where a foam helmet will try to absorb it. So a sharp object on foam sticks in it, try mountain biking real fast through a thick forest where you basically use your helmet to protect your eyes sometimes from branches. You'll end up pulling sticks out of it.
Anyway, don't go out and use a bike helmet for rock climbing. Rock climbing is not a sport where you should try to be cheap with gear. You depend on your gear to save your life, so if you value your life more than $90 buy a real helmet. Would you show up at an OSHA job site that said "hard hats required" with a bike helmet?
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Rocknovice
Jun 27, 2007, 11:45 PM
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So a pillow and some duct tape is a bad idea?
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duckbuster_13
Jun 28, 2007, 12:55 AM
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zionvier wrote: Personally, I would not want to wear my road bike helmet when rock climbing. You're right about them having more visibility when looking "up" since you're basically doing that on a road bike when you're leaned over, but the helmet is made of foam, where rock climbing helmets are made from a hard plastic. hard plastic will hopefully deflect objects, where a foam helmet will try to absorb it. So a sharp object on foam sticks in it, try mountain biking real fast through a thick forest where you basically use your helmet to protect your eyes sometimes from branches. You'll end up pulling sticks out of it. Anyway, don't go out and use a bike helmet for rock climbing. Rock climbing is not a sport where you should try to be cheap with gear. You depend on your gear to save your life, so if you value your life more than $90 buy a real helmet. Would you show up at an OSHA job site that said "hard hats required" with a bike helmet?
In the OP's question, he was concerned about handling a fall... not falling objects being deflected.
If rockfall is the issue then yeah, you've got a point and are correct.
But if the fall is all he's concerned about, i don't see any problem with using a bike helmet. Both offer almost the exact same protection areas for the sides of the head and the front of the head/face.
I'd actually almost wager (almost) that a bicycle helmet would yield greater protection and energy absorption from a fall directly on top of your head than a climbing helmet would. Simply because ( as another poster mentioned) falling on your head isn't terribly common in climbing and the helmets are designed more to protect from rock fall... whereas in cycling, you almost never encounter things falling on you while you ride ( unless you're an American on "Le Tour" and winning) and thus the helmets are meant to protect your noggin from impacting the pavement or other riders/objects head on.
Maybe I misunderstood the purpose for the helmet, or perhaps he wasn't clear in the reason for wanting a helmet... but if as the original posts suggests it's to protect from a fall... i don't see any reason not to use a bicycle helmet if he's got one lying around.
Afterall... using what you've got is better than not using anything at all.
(same goes for using a zip lock bag instead of a condom... true story.)
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zionvier
Jun 28, 2007, 4:56 PM
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I see you are right about the OP asking about helmet for falling. Which made me then go back and look at some more detail about him.... he's only been climbing since March by his own statement.... you should read some of his posts.... they definitely are amusing.
From reading his posts, either he hasn't lead climbed yet, or just started to within this month. Nothing against him, he's just still a n00b. But it would seem that he doesn't know what a fall is really like and how you fall. I applaud him for wanting to be safe and get a helmet, but realize that people have been doing this for longer than just 3 months like he has, there's a reason the helmet are designed the way they are. If it was better to make them of foam they would be. I could go on about how falling while climbing is different than on a bike, but I'll spare everyone :)
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duckbuster_13
Jun 28, 2007, 5:06 PM
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yeah i've seen some of the posts... i think i got wrapped up in one not long ago about home depot biners...
valid questions really...poor guy gets flamed a lot though.
Regardless, I think it's like anything else... there are at least 3 options for any situation.
-unsuitable
-adequate
-ideal
The deciding factor between which to use is usually money or availability. I think at the very least we can agree a bicycle helmet is adequate... while I'll be the first to admit that they're probably not ideal.
Anyway, thanks for not launching into a comparative essay on the trajectories and forces encountered during a road bike crash and how they affect helmet construction. 
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zionvier
Jun 28, 2007, 5:07 PM
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duckbuster_13 wrote: energy absorption from a fall directly on top of your head
If you fall directly on top of your head, your spine might act more of a cushion/spring for the impact than any helmet.... and if you couldn't guess, that's bad with or without a helmet. But you are right, foam would take a side hit on a rock better, but I can't think of a time when I fell that I used my head as the part of my body to hit the rock first, that's what my hands are for. And I always climb with a helmet on, but it's not to protect from a fall
In reply to: (same goes for using a zip lock bag instead of a condom... true story.) |
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duckbuster_13
Jun 28, 2007, 5:09 PM
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zionvier wrote: translation... do your part for the environment, recycle those used ham sammich bags!
Helpful Tip: Rinse out the crumbs and mustard first... just don't use burbon.
(This post was edited by duckbuster_13 on Jun 28, 2007, 5:10 PM)
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markc
Jun 28, 2007, 5:39 PM
Post #33 of 50
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zionvier wrote: ...there's a reason the helmet are designed the way they are. If it was better to make them of foam they would be...
You keep suggesting climbing helmets don't utilize foam, which is incorrect. A number of climbing helmets feature a hard shell with a foam interior. Examples include the Petzl Meteor, the Camp Starlight, and BD Tracer.
There are helmets without foam, such as the HB El Cap, which I own. Adjustment isn't as easy as with other helmets, but I like it.
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zionvier
Jun 28, 2007, 6:27 PM
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you are correct.... I guess my point is more of the hard shell is an important part.
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duckbuster_13
Jun 29, 2007, 2:49 PM
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I know this is probably more than the OP wanted....
but this is a helmet by kong certified for 4 separate sports, biking, climbing, paddling and skating.
http://www.gearexpress.biz/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=G&Product_Code=432462
I guess there is enough crossover with these sports to at least engineer something to to work. It doesn't look a lot different than your standard biking helmet.... just a few odd angles.
It's polycarbonate outer shell, with a foam core for the impact absorption.
Anyway... turns out there is a helmet out there that does everything!
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alx
Jul 3, 2007, 9:37 PM
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Check this out.
http://www.climbhigh5.com/..._dyneema_helmet.html
Awesome. Light, cool looking and I'm pretty sure it'll stop a bullet. Anything that'll puncture this helmet will break your neck anyway.
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richardvg03
Jul 3, 2007, 10:09 PM
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Now THAT looks like my type of helmet!
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phillygoat
Jul 3, 2007, 10:23 PM
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THIS is your type of helmet!
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el_layclimber
Jul 3, 2007, 10:52 PM
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I am among those that think a BMX or other bike helmet is adequate. If you look at the testing specs, Bell certification covers both pointy object impacts and hitting the road, whereas climbing helmets (as others have stated) are mostly designed only to handle rockfall.
I just wish I could find one that was adjustable so I could wear it with or without a hat.
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richardvg03
Jul 3, 2007, 11:11 PM
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that's pretty good hahaha
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zionvier
Jul 3, 2007, 11:52 PM
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But if you were wearing a "non-climbing" helmet and for some reason it failed. (take the word "failed" in whatever way you want it to mean) The company would definitely stand behind a very simple statement "We never designed, advertised or advocated the use of that helmet for climbing", would you personally always wonder if a climbing helmet have prevented more injuries?, and would the climbing community back you in your decision to use a non climbing helmet for climbing with the same expectations that it should work?
Unfortunately in our world if someone got injured from a case like this the helmet company would get sued. I would like to think that it would not be from the individual that made the choice, we all know climbing is dangerous and we assume our own risk, but it would be your insurance company who was covering the hospital cost that would look for compensation anyway they could so they don't have to spend any money. And we all know what happens when lawyers get involved in climbing.... the same thing as when you drink too much Tequilla, you end up waking up next to some fat chick.
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richardvg03
Jul 4, 2007, 12:44 AM
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zionvier wrote: But if you were wearing a "non-climbing" helmet and for some reason it failed. (take the word "failed" in whatever way you want it to mean) The company would definitely stand behind a very simple statement "We never designed, advertised or advocated the use of that helmet for climbing"
You make it sound like he'd sue the company because he fell... I don't think he's a bitch... only a bitch would sue a company because they fell off of a cliff...
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the_climber
Jul 6, 2007, 9:21 PM
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el_layclimber,
Bike/skate/bmx helmets are a one shot deal. They are designed that way, to take ONE hit. Most climbing helmets (I say most b/c a couple of the light weight helmets are Styrofoam) are constructed with a hard shell that is designed to take multiple small strikes and tested against a single large strike as well. In addition to this CLIMBING helmets use a suspension system type of harness, similar to a construction hard hat. The reason for this is that this allows the helmet to have some give in the event of a severe blow to the head vertically. Construction companies do not allow for helmets without this type of suspension fitting b/c without it the chances of a broken neck or severe head injury is far higher without it. This is the same reason climbign helmets have a harnes system which sepatates the head from the helmet. Last time I check the biggest reason to wear a helmet was to prevent injury from rock fall (ie. a vertically oriented force).
I personally don't even like the light weight foam climbing helmets. I;ve seen them killed after one ice climb, from simplely clearing ice as per usual. I also wouldn't take one on a muiti-pitch of alpine route. Once that first strike causes damage, the helmet is compromised. Same as a bike helmet.
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cintune
Jul 6, 2007, 11:22 PM
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Except for Pro-Tec's SXP foam, which is designed to bounce back after multiple impacts.
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sky7high
Jul 7, 2007, 12:11 AM
Post #46 of 50
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tisar wrote: To add a question that might or not be of interest: Is there any reason not to use skater helmets? They are designed to protect your head in fall scenarios - plus they often look much better than the standard climbing models. Besides maybe weight I can't imagine anything wrong with them. Any experience out there? - Daniel
Well, I don't have this experience, but I did come across a "universal helmet"
Only two sports it wasn't designed for one of them was climbing
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truello
Jul 7, 2007, 12:44 AM
Post #47 of 50
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richardvg03 wrote: You make it sound like he'd sue the company because he fell... I don't think he's a bitch... only a bitch would sue a company because they fell off of a cliff...
Do you live in the United States? Idiots are always suing anyone and everyone just to make themselves feel better about being dumb, and to try to get money for nothing.
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tradrenn
Jul 7, 2007, 1:20 AM
Post #48 of 50
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cintune wrote: Except for Pro-Tec's SXP foam, which is designed to bounce back after multiple impacts.
Is that what new Petzl Helmet is made of ?
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davidji
Jul 7, 2007, 2:15 AM
Post #50 of 50
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Bern also makes multi-impact helmets. From what I've seen multi-impact helmets are a little heavier than EPS models. They might work better though: I expect they'll have a lower "activation threshold". There's a certain level below which EPS helmets don't seem to absorb energy, but you can still get a head injury.
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