I think we are saying the same thing in different ways. I just tend to be more extreme in my expression of my thoughts than others.

While I agree it's important to teach a client to belay properly, I don't think it's smart to start leading with a client who's just learning to belay (unless there is a backup belayer). To do otherwise is foolish.

Once YOU (the guide) leaves the ground, you no longer have control over what the client is doing. You can bark orders all you like, but it's of little use when you 50 feet off the ground. This includes intermediate clients as well.

Most of my partners/friends are big names in the yosemite lore of guides. I have heard horror stories of what clients are capable of once you leave the ground. One in particular (think Yosemite Facelift) and you'll know who I am talking about, told me a tail of a client who started tearing down the anchor in the name of efficiency while he was just finishing a pitch (still on belay). If you think this guys is careless or not capable of assessing his clients then you're just being foolish for the sake of argument.

I'm not willing to take this risk with clients. I'll lead, but I'm not trusting them. Hence, why I only lead routes I'm very comfortable on.

This is why I say that you might as well be soloing.

I say all of this because a big part of risk management is being able to assess yourself and what you are getting the client into. It's every bit as important as assessing and training the client.

That's proper risk management.

I'm a student researching accidents involving guides with their clients. If you know of any accident reports which I could look at it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Brenden

If a guide feels s/he is soloing when belayed by a client, the fault is with the guide. I would argue that the guide has done a lousy job of teaching the fundamental skill of belaying...clients can be (and should be!) taught to belay effectively, and we do a disservice to ourselves and them if we fail to do so...Clients are by definition inexperienced. With the occasional exceptions however, they are not hopeless fools who cannot be taught fundamental skills.

Why?

But a guide who climbs in a way or at a level that might produce a leader fall is the one who is at fault in my book.

It depends on what we are defining a guide as. Anyone who teaches climbing? This would include certified and uncertified guides, gym instructors, summer camps, outdoor adventure programs, etc. The rate of accidents and type of accidents would most likely be different for all of these.

One thing that also might skew the results is how an accident is reported. I know of at least one incidence of an accident happening and then the program in question did not report it accurately. If clients are putting their safety in the hands of someone else, and then they are hurt or killed, it can be quite embarrassing at the least, and career-ending and lawsuit-inducing at worst. I wonder how much of THAT goes on.

Josh

Postulating that every novice belayer's lapses are the fault of the teacher defines the problem out of existence without in any way reflecting reality. Belaying takes time and practice to learn. It involves a host of intuitive and situational reactions that have to be almost instantaneous, as well as rope management skills that quite a few moderately experienced climbers aren't all that good at. It may be a "fundamental skill," but that does not mean can be acquired without a lot of practice. Surely good instruction is critical, but it is hardly sufficient, and guides, by the nature of the job, go out with people who haven't had enough practice.

If a hold breaks completely unexpectedly or they get clocked by a rock, of course the guide hopes the client belayer will stop the fall in an appropriate distance. But a guide who climbs in a way or at a level that might produce a leader fall is the one who is at fault in my book.

I think the soloing mentality, with all that it implies about full control and complete reversibility, is the only appropriate mindset for a guide who would prefer to both stay off the injured list and eventually die of old age.

I guess he might feel this way, I have never felt that way about my clients or any new climbers I've taken out. I'm just a firm believer in error on the side of caution.

Sorry you feel that puts clients down. That's in your mind, not mine.