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beethovenboy
Dec 12, 2002, 9:12 PM
Post #26 of 225
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Um...some of us might like the ",shoving 2 cents up our ass," part!
Spiral out...
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camhead
Dec 12, 2002, 9:26 PM
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Quote:because i can put my #2.5 camalot two inches to the right?
I didn't know there was such a thing as a 2.5 camalot!
Anyway, think of it in this way. You have a favorite jeep trail that takes you way out into the middle of nowhere. People start coming along, whining about how not everyone can afford a jeep, and they wat to enjoy the trail too. So they pave it, allowing every idiot with a car to invade your previously favorite place. Would you be happy?
follow me?
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newland
Dec 12, 2002, 9:56 PM
Post #28 of 225
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Posts: 44
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The reason why people don't climb trad, is because THEY DON"T WANT TO. For most people, it has little to do with money.
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elvislegs
Dec 12, 2002, 10:09 PM
Post #29 of 225
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leaverbiner
Dec 12, 2002, 10:14 PM
Post #30 of 225
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Registered: Sep 18, 2002
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Mnutz - you're f'n NUTZ . . . don't blame access and evironmental issues on sport climbers . . . it's a totally innacurate generalization . . . there are planty of trad areas that are over populated and have seriuos erosion problems . . . look no further than the Gunks . . . the crowds are insane . . . and there are areas that are undergoing serious revegitation and restoration because of the nice work of TRAD-CLIMBERS!!!!
Get off your high horse . . . You are no better than anyone else simply because you place gear . . .
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rockram
Dec 12, 2002, 10:19 PM
Post #31 of 225
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Registered: Oct 2, 2002
Posts: 127
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ummm...i don't want to disgrace myself by joining in on a forum with so much hatred and profanity...but i'm going to anyways in an attempt to stop the pointless and immature arguing. so i'm just going to say this and not pay any more attention to this particular post...
let's all realize that climbing is a blast no matter what you are climbing (sport, trad, or whatever)!!! can anyone disagree with me? if so, i don't know how. as for me...i love it all, and will climb ANYTHING!
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drector
Dec 12, 2002, 10:23 PM
Post #32 of 225
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Registered: Aug 27, 2002
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dig_scott,
You made a post complaining about someone not reading your original post BUT YOU EDITED IT! So us late-comers don't have any idea what you said. Kind of a sucky way to make a point, by deleting it.
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talons05
Dec 12, 2002, 10:33 PM
Post #33 of 225
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I would just like to point out that many of your posts are attacking other users rather than addressing the actual question. Here's my answer to the ORIGINAL post: Often, Trad climbers find the idea of defacing the rock with a bolt horrifying. More than this though, sport climbers are often younger, or not as "outdoors oriented" as many trad climbers. This variance in interest or gap in generation often leads to tension between the two groups. Most of the time, its just talk, so it really doesn't matter anyway...
A.W.
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pbjosh
Dec 12, 2002, 10:51 PM
Post #34 of 225
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Registered: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 1518
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Adam,
Normally I'm with you man but on this one:
Quote:
Bagging on another style serves no purpose, but in fact creates a rift in the climbing community, when what we need is unity.
If you're referring to bolting stuff that doesn't need bolts, then I'm not with you any more... I'm fine with there being a rift between people who would bolt a crack for lack of money/cams and people who wouldn't.
josh
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holmeslovesguinness
Dec 12, 2002, 10:57 PM
Post #35 of 225
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Registered: Oct 10, 2002
Posts: 548
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Score another one for the Trolls. This guys was just trying to get a rise outta people - he made a whiny candy ass post with a subject title that sounded inflammatory just to get a response. After a few people replied (mostly nice) and picked apart his original post he completely deleted it and replaced it with what's there now. Lame.
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pbjosh
Dec 12, 2002, 11:05 PM
Post #36 of 225
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oh, and sport climbers are not regularly dissed by trad climbers.
However, morons are regularly dissed by people who are sick of them.
josh
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flying_dutchman
Dec 12, 2002, 11:09 PM
Post #37 of 225
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Posts: 708
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weren't bolts orginally used cause nothing else would work to protect the leader? An example being, climbing a slab that offers no natural protection on lead. Bolts simply allowed more climbs to be lead with an element of safety.
Now what, people want to customize climbs to their own prefrences? Use whats avalible on a climb; if there is a crack, use the crack. If bolts were placed by the one who established the route, use em. Dont bolt a crack cause u cant lead trad. Thats like chipping the route cause its too hard for u.
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jonzoclimber
Dec 12, 2002, 11:13 PM
Post #38 of 225
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Registered: Dec 9, 2002
Posts: 155
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Blarg, climbing is climbing
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mnutz
Dec 12, 2002, 11:41 PM
Post #39 of 225
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Registered: Jul 22, 2001
Posts: 334
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Leaverbiner,
I don't think I'm better than anyone else because I place gear. I do think I'm better than anyone else who does not respect the environment and who does not do everything possible to limit impact.
I'm not saying that sport climbers are soley responsible for access problems. Sure trad climbers can contribute to the problem, and a lot of the time it's non-climbers who cause the most problems.
But the fact remains that if you bolt it, they will come. More traffic anywhere is never good. My personal experience with sport climbers has been that they are generally not as well versed in outdoor ethics as the average trad climber. I know that is not true of all sport climbers (or all trad climbers) so if it doesn't include you (anyone) don't be offended.
More bolts = more people. More people = more problems. Therefore, it stands to reason that less bolts = less problems.
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dig_scott
Dec 13, 2002, 12:35 AM
Post #40 of 225
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Registered: Aug 30, 2002
Posts: 303
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humans f*ck everything up.
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climbsomething
Dec 13, 2002, 12:38 AM
Post #41 of 225
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Registered: May 30, 2002
Posts: 8588
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Hmm, which do I like more, elvislegs' troll or apollodorus' kung-fu baby?
Choices, choices
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pbjosh
Dec 13, 2002, 12:42 AM
Post #42 of 225
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Registered: Mar 22, 2002
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Quote:
humans f*ck everything up.
On this we agree. A bolted crack is something that has been very well f*cked up.
josh
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knuckles
Dec 13, 2002, 1:15 AM
Post #43 of 225
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Registered: Nov 26, 2002
Posts: 650
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If this is becoming a survey I gotta vote for the troll, nothing against kung-fu baby but he just doesn't seem as appropriate for the thread. Unless of course said troll has aforementioned 2 cents showed up his ass... can't abide no queers in climbing, running around in tight little ballet shoes and harnesses is MACHO dammit. This whole argument is moot, we should protect everything with pink tricams.
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ljthawk
Dec 13, 2002, 1:31 AM
Post #44 of 225
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Registered: Dec 2, 2002
Posts: 245
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For anyone interested, here is the thread that compelled the poster to start this thread.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=21478&forum=16
L.J.
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jefesuave
Dec 13, 2002, 1:46 AM
Post #45 of 225
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Registered: Sep 2, 2002
Posts: 92
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So I heard there are alot of people starving in the world, and that Africa has an AIDS epidemic....oh wait my bad, we were discussing something way more important. whether or not to bolt a crack...hmmmm...back to cnn.com
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ljthawk
Dec 13, 2002, 2:19 AM
Post #46 of 225
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Registered: Dec 2, 2002
Posts: 245
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I posted it in the other thread, but here's an amusing site worth reading
http://www.mindspring.com/~bjfaber/
It looks like the person who owns the site gets some pretty funny fan mail.
L.J.
[ This Message was edited by: ljthawk on 2002-12-12 18:20 ]
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orangekyak
Dec 13, 2002, 3:59 AM
Post #47 of 225
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Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 1832
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that's a great site. i think.
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camhead
Dec 13, 2002, 5:01 AM
Post #48 of 225
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Registered: Sep 10, 2001
Posts: 20939
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the owner of that site is an active member of rc.com as well, in case you guys didn't know.
haha
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leaverbiner
Dec 13, 2002, 3:57 PM
Post #49 of 225
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Registered: Sep 18, 2002
Posts: 482
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mnutz - my apologies for my harsh response . . . your follow up was much more enlightening as to your point of view . . . and I agree that the "average" sport climber probably doesn't have the same ethics as the "average" trad climber, too often someone just goes and buys a few quickdraws a rope and a harness and heads out to the crags without any knowledge of their surroundings and thus fails to properly treat the environment . . . whereas a trad climber usually has had to either invest time in learning or had to spend time with other more experienced climbers that hopefully have instilled a sense of responsibility and ethics . . . I generally clip bolts, but I was lucky enough to be taught by a mountaineer/trad climber who made sure I knew more than just how to clip the bolt . . . he emphasised ethics, lessening impact, and respect for the environment and others . . . don't get me wrong, I would love it if the Gunks was bolted, for purely selfish reasons because there are so many climbs there that I would love to do but can't lead yet . . .but I agree that if the gunks were bolted way back when ti would now be a disaster . . . I'm not advocating bolting protectable lines, there are simply times where I would love to be able to climb a killer gunks 12 or 13 but can't because I can't trad that hard . . . and I am still scared to death of falling on gear . . .
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rrrADAM
Dec 13, 2002, 4:44 PM
Post #50 of 225
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Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
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My reply has nothing to do with bolting or not bolting... It has to do with the title of this post... "Why Sport Clibers are bagged on By Trad"...
No one style should bag on another, as it's all climbing. Bagging on other styles only create rifts within the climbing community, when we as a whole need unity.
(And people actually had a problem with this statement ??? )
As for ethics, and my opinion on bolting "established Trad protected climbs", I am vehemently opposed to it. I have a very clear stance on this, and it has been posted in such threads as "Bolt Wars", "Bolt The Cracks", "Retro Bolting", etc... There is no excuse.
I love it when people say that bolting a Trad line makes it safer, or if Trad climbers don't like the bolt, then don't clip it. This is analogous to bolting a HighBall Boulder problem to make it "safer" since someone doesn't want to commit to it, and if the boulderer doesn't like the bolts, then they shouldn't clip them. I think we can all agree that bolting a boulder problem would be unethical, and a bit &#$$&ish, right ???
You see... I am all for the ethic of the Area. I love climbing at The Gunks and Tuolumne, and many people would like to see bolts added to the R/X Rated Routes at Tuolumne especially. I would not, as they have long since been climbed Traditionally, so there is no need.
IMHO... To bolt everything would only homogonize climbing, and lower the commitment required for many climbs. There is a reason there are no R/X rated Sport Climbs, they are bolted to take this level of commitment out of the climb.
Basically... I believe that if one does not have what it takes (gear, head, skill, etc...) to climb an established route as it has been climbed, then they should not climb it, and come back when they have what it takes to climb it. Don't lower the level of the climb, they should rise to the level of the climb.
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