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johnwesely
Jul 16, 2010, 12:54 PM
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That is a bit of a hyperbole. You are not going to get harness hang from hanging conscious in your harness while you fiddle with the autoblock. You may never actually get off the mountain though.
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MS1
Jul 16, 2010, 1:38 PM
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I brought up harness hang based on the scenario where you get knocked unconscious during a rappel. Low probability, but why risk it?
If I need to do a lot of cleaning while descending, I usually get lowered if it is possible.
If I am rappelling and a fireman's belay is possible, I prefer that to any sling backup.
It is a rare situation in which I'd want to back-up a rappel. There are times when I would do it, but I would be nervous due to the risk that something happens during the rappel. Basically, I treat autoblocks as convenience tools for going hands-free, but I do not trust them as safety aids.
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bill413
Jul 16, 2010, 1:59 PM
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I'll chime in late, and repeat some of what was said above from my perspective.
- A NYLON sling makes a fine autoblock.
- Using the device in normal mode works quite well. If you need more friction, use two carabiners; or bring the rope around your back.
- You can go hands free by wrapping the rope multiple times around your leg.
- Why do you need the backup? If you are not first down on rappel, you can get a fireman's belay.
- Why do you need the backup? What is the scenario where you need it? (Especially in a scenario where you have no slings or cordage)
- You probably have some material on you that you could use to make an autoblock anyway (chalkbag belt? Core fibers from last 5 feet of rope? Cut off some hair & weave it? The back of the leg keeper up strap from your harness?)
But, again, why do you really need the backup? For many people it's a comfort to have it, but does it really buy you much additional safety?
Autoblock mode can be difficult to release, and difficult to modulate. If you are holding it open in order to descend, and keeping your brake hand on the brake side of the rope, you have no hands left to fend yourself off the rock should the need arise.
(Confession, I'm using a backup myself more than I used to, but still don't consider it essential).
(This post was edited by bill413 on Jul 16, 2010, 2:01 PM)
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Gmburns2000
Jul 16, 2010, 3:12 PM
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waveknave wrote: Does anybody rappel using an autoblock device in autoblock mode? I know a prusik is a better option for security but what if you're caught without one?
God no. This not only sounds like a serious pain in the ass, it would also worry me that I might bounce the rope too much on the way down. If the rope is over any kind of an edge above you, well, that would be bad news.
There are much, much simpler ways of backing yourself up than doing this. I'm not sure what the name of the the knot is that I use (it isn't really even a knot), but all I do is girth a chord to my leg loop at one end, then wrap it three to five times around the rope on the brake side (# of wraps depending on how much friction I want based on the thickness of the rope), and clip the remaining end back to my leg loop with a biner.
The chord is always on my harness, too, so it's not even as if I have to redo the girth hitch every time.
It's quick, easy, and I can't think of a way that it wouldn't work if I was suddenly knocked unconscious.
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Gmburns2000
Jul 16, 2010, 3:21 PM
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This might be a function of where I climb and the types of climbs I get on, but I tentatively would think that I'd much rather have harness hang syndrom with an autoblock than rocket downward in a freefall rappel if I knocked unconscious.
I don't know, I've been really sick lately, so maybe I'm not thinking clearly, but under my current mindset I'd rather be in a position where my partner has to get to me rather than in a position where decking or hitting ledges on the way down was possible.
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healyje
Jul 16, 2010, 3:42 PM
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Hmmm, yes, we seem to be seeing a lot more of beginners attempting to 'innovate' the basic mechanics of climbing of late - unfortunately it's always a case of people getting too 'clever' and way out ahead of themselves.
This sort of 'clever' is wholly inappropriate if you are a beginning climber - instead learn the basics of existing best practices. Once you've mastered them and have developed several years of experience, knowledge, and understanding you can start considering such things, but by and large even then you shouldn't mess with what works.
This may sound like stodgy old-folk talk, and guess what? It is. It's directly from the mouth of an old guy who is still trad climbing at a reasonably high level and putting up FAs thirty six years later. I and others got old by learning the basics, sticking with what works, and only innovating / breaking the rules once we really knew the game cold inside and out. And even then we don't stray far, or very often from accepted best practices.
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waveknave
Jul 16, 2010, 4:03 PM
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In this case healyje, the OP is not trying to innovate a new technique but was inquiring about whether or not this is common practice or safe to do in a hypothetical kind of way. Your age does show but only in your need to express that you are not too old to be a hardcore climber.
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MS1
Jul 16, 2010, 4:06 PM
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I think it's going to vary situationally. As you said, part of it is a function of terrain. I tend to climb steeper sport and ledgier trad, lowering on the former and rappelling on the latter. So I'm thinking of this in terms of falling and breaking a leg on a ledge vs. dying while your partner tries to reach you on a loaded rope.
I also tend to climb with people who haven't put much thought into rescue trickery, so I am not sanguine about the chances of being rescued within the short time frame before harness hang sets in.
On the few occasions when I've done really steep, free-hanging rappels, with no one below me to give a firemans, I've used an autoblock for piece of mind. But if I was climbing in an area with a lot of rockfall, I might reconsider that equation.
Mainly, I just wanted to get the OP out of the "autoblocks are always a good idea" frame of mind.
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j_ung
Jul 16, 2010, 4:23 PM
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adatesman wrote: If it weren't binary why all the reports about people dropping the second when releasing the device per the instructions? Go play with it and you'll realize that: 1. what you have in mind isn't possible, and 2. if you do manage to unlock the device (by leveraging it open with a wrench) you'll become fast friends with the floor, which means its probably best to do this experiment close to it.
At least part of that (most?) is due to the position of the brake hand relative to the belay device, which while in auto-block belay mode, is utterly inadequate for controlling the rope. In the set up being discussed here, the brake hand would automatically be in the correct position relative to the device.
I'm not saying this is a great idea or anything, but I might be curious enough to try it out, too. The biggest question in my mind is whether or not I can actually make the device release. I haven't used a Reverso 3, but some folks on this site have reported very little trouble doing so with nothing but a biner leveraged into the appropriate hoop. If it works, hey, another trick in the bag. I promise I'll build appropriate back ups into the system if I ever try it.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Jul 16, 2010, 4:45 PM)
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csproul
Jul 16, 2010, 4:24 PM
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waveknave wrote: In this case healyje, the OP is not trying to innovate a new technique but was inquiring about whether or not this is common practice or safe to do in a hypothetical kind of way. Your age does show but only in your need to express that you are not too old to be a hardcore climber.
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Gmburns2000
Jul 16, 2010, 4:26 PM
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MS1 wrote: I think it's going to vary situationally. As you said, part of it is a function of terrain. I tend to climb steeper sport and ledgier trad, lowering on the former and rappelling on the latter. So I'm thinking of this in terms of falling and breaking a leg on a ledge vs. dying while your partner tries to reach you on a loaded rope. I also tend to climb with people who haven't put much thought into rescue trickery, so I am not sanguine about the chances of being rescued within the short time frame before harness hang sets in. On the few occasions when I've done really steep, free-hanging rappels, with no one below me to give a firemans, I've used an autoblock for piece of mind. But if I was climbing in an area with a lot of rockfall, I might reconsider that equation. Mainly, I just wanted to get the OP out of the "autoblocks are always a good idea" frame of mind.
I agree with a lot of what you said there, but mostly that it depends.
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healyje
Jul 16, 2010, 4:33 PM
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waveknave wrote: In this case healyje, the OP is not trying to innovate a new technique but was inquiring about whether or not this is common practice or safe to do in a hypothetical kind of way.
The leap in assuming that 'autoblocking' in belaying and rappeling are the same might I suppose be an honest mistake, but what I took from the OP was they were in fact attempting to [cleverly] juxtapose the two as a good idea. Possibly a misread on my part, and also a case where autoblocking ATCs are unfortunately the norm these days such that beginners are exposed to functionality it would be better they are not exposed to.
(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 16, 2010, 4:34 PM)
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sknowlton
Jul 16, 2010, 4:47 PM
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healyje wrote: Hmmm, yes, we seem to be seeing a lot more of beginners attempting to 'innovate' the basic mechanics of climbing of late - unfortunately it's always a case of people getting too 'clever' and way out ahead of themselves. This sort of 'clever' is wholly inappropriate if you are a beginning climber - instead learn the basics of existing best practices. Once you've mastered them and have developed several years of experience, knowledge, and understanding you can start considering such things, but by and large even then you shouldn't mess with what works. This may sound like stodgy old-folk talk, and guess what? It is. It's directly from the mouth of an old guy who is still trad climbing at a reasonably high level and putting up FAs thirty six years later. I and others got old by learning the basics, sticking with what works, and only innovating / breaking the rules once we really knew the game cold inside and out. And even then we don't stray far, or very often from accepted best practices.
+1
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mihir
Jul 17, 2010, 3:48 AM
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insted of going through all the trouble use a simple device like petzl shunt .it can be used as assender also and so is versatile.
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jeepnphreak
Jul 17, 2010, 3:55 AM
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waveknave wrote: Does anybody rappel using an autoblock device in autoblock mode? I know a prusik is a better option for security but what if you're caught without one?
No its a pain in the ass for the most parts.
HOWEVER
I have seen a rappel using a ATC guide in auto block mode. A SAR group was practicing rappelling off an three pitch climb while carrying a "disabled" climber tied to there back (yes they where using another SAR group member to play the hurt climber role). I did not see how it was set up but what they told me was that while in the natural semi seated rappelling position the ATC locked off, but once you leaned a certain direction the auto block gently let off and allowed the rescuer to make a controlled rap with all the extra weight.
So in other words this is a technique that a beginner should not monkey with. Just rap the tried and true way.
(This post was edited by jeepnphreak on Jul 17, 2010, 3:57 AM)
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davidnn5
Jul 17, 2010, 6:11 AM
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MS1 wrote: I think it's going to vary situationally. As you said, part of it is a function of terrain. I tend to climb steeper sport and ledgier trad, lowering on the former and rappelling on the latter. So I'm thinking of this in terms of falling and breaking a leg on a ledge vs. dying while your partner tries to reach you on a loaded rope. I also tend to climb with people who haven't put much thought into rescue trickery, so I am not sanguine about the chances of being rescued within the short time frame before harness hang sets in. On the few occasions when I've done really steep, free-hanging rappels, with no one below me to give a firemans, I've used an autoblock for piece of mind. But if I was climbing in an area with a lot of rockfall, I might reconsider that equation. Mainly, I just wanted to get the OP out of the "autoblocks are always a good idea" frame of mind.
I'm still yet to hear anything remotely definitive as to how long it *takes* for harness hang to kick in. Anecdotally, it's anything from 43 seconds to 4 hours.
Edit: Jay made me do it.
(This post was edited by davidnn5 on Jul 17, 2010, 6:13 AM)
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rgold
Jul 17, 2010, 2:41 PM
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davidnn5 wrote: I'm still yet to hear anything remotely definitive as to how long it *takes* for harness hang to kick in. Anecdotally, it's anything from 43 seconds to 4 hours.
The problem is that individual tolerance to orthostatic shock varies considerably, the physical condition of the person hanging has a significant effect (with everything pertaining to other injuries tending to bring on orthostatic shock sooner), the type of harness used in the testing matters, and the amount of leg motion the subjects can indulge in matters.
Certainly the worst possible situation (and one relevant to the discussion of rappel back-ups) is if the hanging person is unconscious. This is precisely the situation that has not been tested, for obvious reasons, but it is clear that the time it takes for orthostatic shock to occur will be minimal in this case.
When death occurs in the field to a climber who has been hanging, it isn't necessarily clear that the cause was orthostatic shock, but see the cases reviewed in
http://www.hse.gov.uk/...df/2002/crr02451.pdf
for evidence of the level of danger.
The US Dept of Labor, OSHA, takes the following position:
"Research indicates that suspension in a fall arrest device can result in unconsciousness, followed by death, in less than 30 minutes."
http://www.osha.gov/...shib/shib032404.html
Some of those who skimmed my referenced comment have failed to understand it. My suggestion is that rappel back-ups only be used, when circumstances merit it, for the first person down, and that all other members of the party be protected by a "fireman's belay."
This eliminates the dangerous, time-consuming, and complicated rescue scenarios for an unconscious rappeller for all but possibly the first person down.
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mheyman
Jul 17, 2010, 4:48 PM
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johnwesely wrote: That is a bit of a hyperbole. You are not going to get harness hang from hanging conscious in your harness while you fiddle with the autoblock. You may never actually get off the mountain though.
Sounds like harness hang syndrome to me! :)
MS1 wrote: I brought up harness hang based on the scenario where you get knocked unconscious during a rappel. Low probability, but why risk it? If I need to do a lot of cleaning while descending, I usually get lowered if it is possible. If I am rappelling and a fireman's belay is possible, I prefer that to any sling backup. It is a rare situation in which I'd want to back-up a rappel. There are times when I would do it, but I would be nervous due to the risk that something happens during the rappel. Basically, I treat autoblocks as convenience tools for going hands-free, but I do not trust them as safety aids.
Uh you'd rather just die and get it over with?
(This post was edited by mheyman on Jul 17, 2010, 4:53 PM)
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gazoo9224
Jul 18, 2010, 6:30 AM
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i am lazy too length of a prusik is easely modified.
replace all the laces in your clothing with prusiks and you'll always have one.
shoes short backpack...... there are all place where you have laces. put prusiks in there!!!
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MS1
Jul 18, 2010, 3:01 PM
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mheyman wrote: MS1 wrote: I brought up harness hang based on the scenario where you get knocked unconscious during a rappel. Low probability, but why risk it? If I need to do a lot of cleaning while descending, I usually get lowered if it is possible. If I am rappelling and a fireman's belay is possible, I prefer that to any sling backup. It is a rare situation in which I'd want to back-up a rappel. There are times when I would do it, but I would be nervous due to the risk that something happens during the rappel. Basically, I treat autoblocks as convenience tools for going hands-free, but I do not trust them as safety aids. Uh you'd rather just die and get it over with?
No, it's just that I realize that orthostatic shock can kill you as surely as a fall can, and not all falls are likely to end in death.
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petsfed
Jul 18, 2010, 3:42 PM
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patto wrote: Leg loop attaching is lazy, needs to be perfect length to even remotely work and is not always effective. If you want to do it properly extend you belay device off your harness. All this is explained in nice pretty pictures in the Petzl Catalogue. Just download it.
Which works great if you weigh enough to get the rope to slide from below. Otherwise, you're inching your way down as you feed rope into the prusik, and then feed rope from the prusik into the device. If you're using a 10.2mm or larger rope, you really will never get down. If you haven't played with your backup enough to know what an appropriate length sling is, then yes, do without one, you'll be safer.
Mind you, I only use the backup when I can't visually confirm that the rope is on the ground, so it doesn't come up that often, but it remains a legitimate issue.
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moose_droppings
Jul 18, 2010, 4:39 PM
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petsfed wrote: patto wrote: Leg loop attaching is lazy, needs to be perfect length to even remotely work and is not always effective. If you want to do it properly extend you belay device off your harness. All this is explained in nice pretty pictures in the Petzl Catalogue. Just download it. Which works great if you weigh enough to get the rope to slide from below. Otherwise, you're inching your way down as you feed rope into the prusik, and then feed rope from the prusik into the device. If you're using a 10.2mm or larger rope, you really will never get down. If you haven't played with your backup enough to know what an appropriate length sling is, then yes, do without one, you'll be safer. Mind you, I only use the backup when I can't visually confirm that the rope is on the ground, so it doesn't come up that often, but it remains a legitimate issue.
When I use an autoblock I hold it with my guide hand around it and the rope and the rappel goes as if it's not there till I release my hand from it. Never had a problem with the rope feeding through it.
I've never used a prussic for this application, it's to finicky.
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petsfed
Jul 18, 2010, 7:21 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: petsfed wrote: Which works great if you weigh enough to get the rope to slide from below. Otherwise, you're inching your way down as you feed rope into the prusik, and then feed rope from the prusik into the device. If you're using a 10.2mm or larger rope, you really will never get down. If you haven't played with your backup enough to know what an appropriate length sling is, then yes, do without one, you'll be safer. Mind you, I only use the backup when I can't visually confirm that the rope is on the ground, so it doesn't come up that often, but it remains a legitimate issue. When I use an autoblock I hold it with my guide hand around it and the rope and the rappel goes as if it's not there till I release my hand from it. Never had a problem with the rope feeding through it. I've never used a prussic for this application, it's to finicky.
That's what I do as well. But if you extend your device off your harness, but still attach the autoblock or prusik to your belay loop, you have to weigh a fair bit to get the rope to move at all, even without the autoblock in place. With the device up by your eyes, you have to have your hands up that high to lift the rope so it will slide through the device, a task made all the more difficult if you have to manage the autoblock with one hand, and lift the rope with the other.
(This post was edited by petsfed on Jul 18, 2010, 7:21 PM)
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moose_droppings
Jul 18, 2010, 8:18 PM
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petsfed wrote: moose_droppings wrote: petsfed wrote: Which works great if you weigh enough to get the rope to slide from below. Otherwise, you're inching your way down as you feed rope into the prusik, and then feed rope from the prusik into the device. If you're using a 10.2mm or larger rope, you really will never get down. If you haven't played with your backup enough to know what an appropriate length sling is, then yes, do without one, you'll be safer. Mind you, I only use the backup when I can't visually confirm that the rope is on the ground, so it doesn't come up that often, but it remains a legitimate issue. When I use an autoblock I hold it with my guide hand around it and the rope and the rappel goes as if it's not there till I release my hand from it. Never had a problem with the rope feeding through it. I've never used a prussic for this application, it's to finicky. That's what I do as well. But if you extend your device off your harness, but still attach the autoblock or prusik to your belay loop, you have to weigh a fair bit to get the rope to move at all, even without the autoblock in place. With the device up by your eyes, you have to have your hands up that high to lift the rope so it will slide through the device, a task made all the more difficult if you have to manage the autoblock with one hand, and lift the rope with the other.
That makes sense if your device is extended.
I don't use it much but when I do, I've never extended the device and my autoblock has always been tied short off my harness leg loop.
I know, I'm gonna die.
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gunkiemike
Jul 23, 2010, 6:14 PM
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adatesman wrote: FYI, it'll require much, much more leverage than you can provide with just your hand.
True. But I just set up a test rap in my garage, and my nut pick provided enough leverage to release my ATC Guide. (Other details - I'm 150 lb, the rope was 9.7 mm in VG condition, nut tool is about 8" long) But putting that much pressure on the nut pick was not something I'd want to maintain through a long (or multiple) raps. Just 5-10 sec. of it left a mark on my palm. I also don't believe you can wedge the hook of the nut tool into the larger eye of the Reverse 3 like you can the ATC-G.
adatesman wrote: And then there's the little issue of it being more of a binary friction/no friction kind of thing, so all around it just won't work.
Disagree. The release was very gentle and controllable. MUCH better control than say, pulling the lever on a Grigri.
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