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cracklover
May 17, 2012, 6:59 PM
Post #26 of 32
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Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
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rgold wrote: Gabe, you are initiating a somewhat different discussion, having to do with the nuanced decisions faced by experts. My comments were aimed at a beginning trad climber who had two pieces pull unexpectedly, and in that context I do not think it is wise to reply to a simple and direct question with an avalanche of hypothetical situations in which gear might be expected to pull after serving some purpose, which is why I said and still maintain, "you should be damned concerned."
We both agree about the level of concern the OP should have, and there's not much more to be said about it. In my opinion, a beginning trad climber should strive to make every piece in the system bombroof, both as a matter of training, and because they are bound to err in individual placements and/or miss better placements, so the other pieces around must be capable of picking up the slack.
But beyond that, you (not I) raised the somewhat different discussion around the issue of expert climbers and zippering when you stated: rgold wrote: In my experience, zippering pieces is by far the most common mistake expert climbers make. No matter how good you are, it is going to happen occasionally, but this is not a reason to dismiss the seriousness of it. Every time it happens, it is important to understand why and to make sure that you won't repeat that particular mistake again.
Unless I'm mistaking your meaning, you seem to be saying that even expert climbers (and I'm not sure I fall into that category) occasionally have pieces zipper in situations like the OP, and when this happens, one should always admit that a mistake has been made, and something should be done to prevent that mistake from happening the next time.
You later amended your statement to say simply "it is serious when a piece pops that you didn't expect to pop", but this merely sidesteps the question of whether an experienced climber ever *should* expect a piece to pop.
In reply to: But nuances are what you are after with your example of a piece placed off to the side and your demand for a clearer definition of what "good" pro is. OK, you want a definition, here is one: it isn't "good" if it will hold a fall near it but pop out later. That doesn't mean that we all don't use such pro, but I wouldn't call it good.
OK, thanks for that. So it appears we do have a difference of opinion. My issue is that it seems reasonable for experienced trad climbers to consider a piece "good" if it would serve its purpose. So if it is capable of holding a fall directly on it, (likewise if the piece above it were to rip) and if a fall higher up might clean the piece without adding significant slack to the system, then I don't see a problem with calling it "good".
In reply to: I guess I should also add that because I always climb with double ropes, problems like this for single-rope climbers are often not an issue. This is one of the many often unappreciated reasons that double ropes are useful way beyond their ability to reduce rope drag.
I prefer to climb on doubles for much the same reasons, but in some cases, a single rope is more expedient.
GO
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blueeyedclimber
May 17, 2012, 7:57 PM
Post #27 of 32
(1619 views)
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Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4602
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NJSlacker wrote: While lowering off, two of my pieces pulled. The two pieces were on opposite sides of the rope, at almost the same heights. One was a BD nut in a horizontal crackthat I had thought I'd oriented for a downward and rope-ward pull. The other was a tri-cam in a vertical crack that I thought was solid (at least for a downward pull). My question is, which piece pulled first? I'm assuming the whip-back from the rope pulled the second.
It's impossible for any of us to know which piece pulled first, but generally speaking, pieces pull because they are subjected to forces or directions that they are not suited for. IMO, this is usually for 2 reasons: 1. The first piece is not multidirectional and the belayer is not in line with the first piece or the piece(s) is not slung appropriately, causing pull in an unintended direction.
In reply to: and more importantly, should I be concerned? Was this a bad placement that would have pulled if I'd fallen? Or does a tensioned rope do this often?
It sounds like to me, that you should have slung them longer. When you weighted the rope it appears that they were pulled in a direction that they were not intended for. IMO, tricams are poor choices for vertical cracks. Their most stable position is best suited for horizontals.
As a beginner, you should be concerned about everything, but especially the soundness of your gear placements.
Josh
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ecade
May 17, 2012, 9:13 PM
Post #28 of 32
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Registered: Jun 23, 2011
Posts: 132
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In reply to: david_g48 wrote:Sometimes people place a piece of gear down low that is not necessarily there to catch you before a ground fall but because it is bomber for multi directional pulls it will help stop any zippering effect. It must have a shorter sling than the next piece if the next piece placed can not be multi-directional.
Can you please elabroate on this point. Perhaps the poster made a typo in the bolded section and meant to write "and the next piece can't be multi directional..." either way, I still do not understand. why couldn't the second pc be MD? why must the first piece have a shorter sling than the second piece? and does that hold true if the second piece is high enough up past the first such that 1st piece sling extended upwards and 2nd piece sling extended downwards are far enough apart not to touch?
I'm very new to trad, i've done 15 leads, I've finally started testing my pieces while on lead with takes and bounce tests and so far its all holding. Was planning on taking a lead fall on a piece (found a route that has bolts and a good crack thought that would be a good testing place, back up placement with bolt... thoughts welcome to this approach)
i was taught that the first is always multi directional so either Hex placed horizontally for upward/downward mutl directional, Cam, or opposing nuts taut with clove hitched sling. if first placement is a cam I always use an extendable draw 60cm (24in) draw and ussually double it so its 30cm(12in) unless route calls for full extension and i'm high enough up that it will make sense to do so.
Please advise if you have a chance
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climbingaggie03
May 17, 2012, 10:40 PM
Post #29 of 32
(1589 views)
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Registered: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: 1173
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dr_feelgood wrote: If you can't get solid pro on a 5.4, you should probably be spending a lot more time placing gear at ground level. Definitely don't venture onto harder terrain until you are solid.
Dude, I've climbed 5.1 in Josh with terrible pro, and 5.8's with fantastic pro, I think what you're saying is that if a new leader has trouble placing good gear then they shouldn't push their climbing ability, but I don't think you said it very well.
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surfstar
May 18, 2012, 6:09 AM
Post #30 of 32
(1556 views)
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Registered: May 31, 2011
Posts: 206
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One of the gems of knowledge I've learned from the climbing interwebs:
"when all else fails, the ground always stops a fall"
Climb on.
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viciado
May 18, 2012, 9:41 AM
Post #31 of 32
(1548 views)
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Registered: May 9, 2003
Posts: 429
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ecade wrote: In reply to: david_g48 wrote:Sometimes people place a piece of gear down low that is not necessarily there to catch you before a ground fall but because it is bomber for multi directional pulls it will help stop any zippering effect. It must have a shorter sling than the next piece if the next piece placed can not be multi-directional. Can you please elabroate on this point.
The first piece should be slung anticipating how it will protect the second piece. A shorter sling on a bomber multi directional piece will hold the rope near to the wall and help prevent an outward/upward pull or lift in the event of a fall. A longer sling on the first piece allows an increase of the angle of the rope in relation to the wall (depending on the position of the belayer in relation to the wall) and increase the possibility of an outward/upward pull on the second piece. If that second piece is not multi directional, it can easily be pulled out in this way.
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