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crankinv9
Jan 16, 2003, 3:23 PM
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"you have zero
credibility in the real climbing world,"
Maybe according to a self rightous moron, but when I pull a really hard and high problem I feel like a real climber. If I fall off of a 20+ foot boulder I break real bones.
Whatever dude, don't worry so much about labels and try to boulder more and you(kalcoreo) might be able to do that v2 some old man just hiked.
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boulderingmadman
Jan 16, 2003, 4:08 PM
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i just want kalcario to come out here and "work" his 5.10b sport route while i onsight the same one thats been bugging him for months...
lemme guess, kalcario, youre onsight level is right around, what, say, 5.10a(being generous)?? hmm....wouldnt brag about that, dud...
so...when do i have credibility? when i onsight youre porjects, or when i send 'em in my flip flops?? cause maybe then i could be a real climber...hehehe
[ This Message was edited by: boulderingmadman on 2003-01-16 08:10 ]
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dingus
Jan 16, 2003, 5:03 PM
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"Encouraging people to clean pins so as to leave"finger locks" you are mistaken. It is encouraged in Zion to clean pins emphazing the upward blow, thus creating CLEAN AID PLACEMENTS."
The short answer is BOTH. This has been done and routes subsequently freed since long before you started climbing my friend. Moonlight Buttress would be a prime example. Pinned in a way to create clean chock placements I agree. But always with the eye toward an eventual free ascent. In either case, by the way, it's still purposeful chipping.
Cheers and thanks for the clarification. It's a good point,
DMT
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jds100
Jan 16, 2003, 11:58 PM
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MHR: sorry if you took my comments so personally. I'm trying to flesh out the full picture, not stretch the topic. My comment about "rocks not being here for us to climb" is a paraphrase of Reinhold Messner's comment some years ago, to a similar sentiment, in the heyday of the early bolt wars (which I don't want to resurrect here). Simply put, my primary concern with chipping is that if it's done on publicly managed land, people -maybe other climbers- are eventually going to make a stink about damaging the environment, etc., and a typical land manager will be happy to add the complaints to his list of why he is prohibiting climbing. Chipping on private land is a private matter. The ethical "slippery slope" problem is something each of us individually can deal with. Whatever standard is extant for a given area should be observed, even if it isn't one that the individual climber necessarily respects. I'll refer you to my earlier post for that message. Yeah, as Dingus says, if it's a choss pile with otherwise no hope, and permission is obtained, go ahead, if that's what the local climbers can accept. Unilateral chipping, however, will serve no one well.
Whoever said boulderers aren't climbers and have no valid opinions about ethics needs to suck more oxygen, and try reading a little more history about people such as John Gill, and maybe, as suggested, pay a little more attention to climbers -yeah, "climbers"- such as Sharma, Rands, Graham, etc. etc. Do their opinions count when they climb, but not when they boulder? Wha....???
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kalcario
Jan 17, 2003, 1:13 AM
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*Maybe according to a self rightous moron, but when I pull a really hard and high problem I feel like a real climber. If I fall off of a 20+ foot boulder I break real bones.*
You're playin yourself. Risking bone fracture does'nt make you a real climber, skateboarders and rollerbladers break arms and legs all the time and you don't hear them carping on about how dangerous it is, and they don't use spotters and crash pads and would get clowned if they did. Do whatever you want I don't care, but if you equate bouldering to real climbing you leave yourself open to ridicule and slander from real climbers. And not just me.
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drector
Jan 17, 2003, 1:37 AM
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There is no solution to the chipping problem because no one can agree on what is the problem is.
As for local ethics, I will not respect local ethics if they seem to be ethics that promote things to which I believe are wrong. I will not accept racism in a racist community and I will not accept chipping in a chipping community.
With that said, chipping is certainly not at all like racism and only the idea that some ethics should be global is the point. Chipping seems to be accepted on a small scale and I, as a fairly new climber will not condemn it outright without more thought. I will, on the other hand, not chip a damn thing since it seems like there is plenty of climbing available to me now.
Chipping will never hurt the environment as much as the chipping done on Mt. Rushmore so I'm not too worried about that aspect of it. Only the issue of access is critical in my mind. Chipping will make non-climbers think that we are hypocrites and condemn us as being the same as the 4x4 driving, beer drinking, rowdies who tear up the fields and make noise near their local housing tracts.
Dave
PS; Now go ahead and slam me...
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boulderingmadman
Jan 17, 2003, 6:27 AM
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sounds to me like kalcario is sick of boulderers tying-up and sending all his projects...hehehe
hey kalcario--what about it? its been asked twice now...do you have as little respect for: gill, sharma, graham, rands, wills young, greg loh,etcetcetcetc as you do for me?? why not? theyre boulderers too...not real climbers according to you....
ps-mhr2000--yes, i have a chip onmmy shoulder. when people go into one topic and rant about how gluing on a flake isnt chipping, then entirely contradict themselves in another very similar topic...i have a problem with that. i have a problem with anyone that uses rhetoric and circular logic to try(uselessly, i may add) and make me look foolish. i dont play games like that, and i dont like what yours and other peoples responses say about you, both on your ethical standpoint and on your logical standpoint...basically, im of the opinion that some of you have neither...
[ This Message was edited by: boulderingmadman on 2003-01-16 22:29 ]
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boulderingmadman
Jan 17, 2003, 12:04 PM
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"First, I haven't contradicted myself even once.---ive said it before, mhr2000, i am not referring only to you. i was replying to your question, but in a general manner...chill out dude. i dont hate you. and you couldnt knock the chip off my shoulder if i gave you a bullseye and sledgehammer...
now i am referring to you--"You should quit comparing chipping a small unknown local crag to chipping EL CAP. These two things couldn't be further apart"
IMHO--you couldnt be more wrong. size and popularity do not dictate, or at least should not dictate, how much respect you deserve and/or recieve. for example...you are small, unimportant, and unknown. that does NOT mean that youre opinion counts any less or should be respected any less than say jgill's(relax, dude, its a compliment...)
just because a crag is small and unknown doesnt mean its OK to chop it up with chisels and crowbars(relax...its an opinion)
"I'm still trying to figure out why you are so pissed off at people chipping a route you'll most likely never visit, but if you do would probably never realize it was chipped."--
bnecause too many poeple are advocating this sort of behavior, and most of them WILL end up in "my backyard"(bishop) climbing at some point, and i dont want these sort of ethics being brought to "my" areas(chill out, man...im not claiming to OWN them, its just easily descriptive...) TRUST ME ON THIS!!! if i see chipping, gluing, wirebrushing, etcetcetc in the bishop area, i WILL say something, and i will probably NOT be very nice about it...
personally, i dont consider preservation of the future a "trivial" thing, and quite frankly, i consider it a pity that you do...
"So what does your holiness think my responses say about me? I'm glad you are capable of judging a person by something so damn trivial as this."---
youre responses say to me that you are the type of person that finds nothing wrong with cleaning a sloper with a wirebrush. thats bull$#!&...plain and simple. if you cannot stick the hold, train, climb, and get stronger. if youre afraid a flake will break off and crush you, dont climb the rock. if the gear doesnt meet your safety and comfort level, train, climb and get (mentally) stronger...etcetcetc...
mhr2000---let me put it quite simply...the topics that i respond too have been asking for opinions. i am stating my opinions. i am passionate about these subjects because i am passionate about preserving the future of climbing, bother in terms of future generations of climbers, and in future access to climbing areas, both of which can be hurt by the activities discussed here and in the "other topic"...
IF you do not like my opinion, that is TOO BAD!!! i am not here to be your friend, i dont care if you like me, i dont care if you find me amusing, and i couldnt possibly care any less if you agree with me. an opinion was asked for, and i ahev been giving mine...as has everyoine else. you seem to have picked mine out of the lineup as the one you want to debate. good for you. but dont cry about my rhetoric when it shoves your circular logic back at you.
if you really have a problem with me, ignore me. if you really want to debate a passionate topic with me, expect me to be passionate about it. and if you want to use circular logic to try and prove a point that i find ridiculous, expect to get called on it. its quite simple really. get used to it, get over it, or ignore it. i will not dumb down ,my responses or censor my opinions so as to not offend you...i could not possibly care any less about your feelings...
and above all else...quite taking it soooo damn personally. its the friggin internet already....
[ This Message was edited by: boulderingmadman on 2003-01-17 04:08 ]
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crankinv9
Jan 17, 2003, 4:33 PM
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" You're playin yourself. Risking bone fracture does'nt make
you a real climber, skateboarders and rollerbladers break arms
and legs all the time and you don't hear them carping on
about how dangerous it is, and they don't use spotters and
crash pads and would get clowned if they did."
So I guess the pads and helmets are fake? You know what I do when my body needs a break from bouldering?
I go sport climbing!
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jonf
Jan 18, 2003, 3:39 AM
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Kalcario,
You are a disgrace to "real climbers." Being a real climber has NOTHING to do with taking large risks. Yes risks are a natural part of climbing, but danger is a weak reason to be a climber, and you mentioned that you are a sport climber. WHERE is the danger in sport climbing? Do you not realize that sport climbers were ridiculed for years for taking the danger out of climbing. I climb sport, trad and boulders, and i have been injured much more when bouldering. Also many of these boulderers you are attacking have also done lots of very dangerous routes, inluding many that I guarantee would make your little balls shrivel up. Tim Kemple for example has done first ascents of numerous V10 and V11 problems. Tim has also done the first ascent of trad routes such as Absolute 5.13X and Thicker Than Water. Both of those routes have a high risk of ground falls. Sport routes dont offer a high risk of fatal falls, unless by some incredibley bad luck you fell and pulled out 4 or 5 bolts. Ground falls would only be a problem at the beggining of the route and the fall would probably be around the same height as a fall from a tall boulder problem. Im not trying to say that bouldering is more dangerous than routes, but it certainly isnt "safe".
The comment about the skateboarders didnt work at all. Most falls you take when skating are somewhat small and you can land on your feet without any injury, of course on occasions skaters will take much larger falls. The amount and severity of falls between skating and bouldering are actually very similar. Also not all boulderers use pads, and not all use spotters. Even when using pads or spotters it isnt rare to miss the pad and fall straight to the ground, so you really cant yell at boulderers for protecting themselves with a little piece of foam when other climbers drill metal bolts into the wall to keep themselves safe.
Saying that because boulderers dont climb high off the ground means that they are not climbers is absurd. They make similar moves that are as hard and harder than those in routes, and they climb the same rock (usually just a piece that happend to fall of the cliff). Bouldering may not be liked by a large amount of climbers, but most climbers ive talked to wouldnt say that they are not also rock climbers. Most of these climbers are also from the gunks which is known for its ban of bolts and difficult sparsely protected routes. i would have to say that you and your misdirected friends are alone in your beliefs of bouldering not being seen as an equally credible form of climbing.
Now to back up boulderingmadman's question. I am wondering what your opinions are on "boulderers" like Sharma, Caldwell, Graham, Gill, Sherman, and Kemple. Oh and how bout Lynn Hill, the one time that I climbed with her we were out BOULDERING at the gunks. Do her opinions not have any crediblity? Is she not a "real climber"?
People like you are the ones that ruin the spirit of rock climbing. You are entitled to your opinion, but it doesnt seem like the members of this site want to hear your bitching.
[ This Message was edited by: jonf on 2003-01-17 20:04 ]
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socalbolter
Jan 18, 2003, 4:51 AM
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enough is enough.
while i agree that at times his postings can be a bit volatile, if you truly feel that he is "bashing and belittling" is it really necessary to stoop to the same action?
at their base some of his postings ring true, and a few have been very informative. if some of his postings reek of strong convictions and passion - so be it. the world would be a very boring place without passion.
and for those that would try to diminish his climbing abilities - don't bother. while he may not have jumped on the bouldering bandwagon kalcario is a very accomplished sport climber. he's travelled the world in this pursuit and can more than hold his own in most circles.
what started out as an interesting thread has once again gone awry.
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varstar10
Jan 18, 2003, 6:00 AM
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I think you all should
CLIMB MORE AND TYPE LESS!!!
Jon
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roninthorne
Jan 18, 2003, 4:09 PM
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Great thread, dingus, and a topic that we've blown many a fattie over, hashing it out while packing up at the end of a long day of cleaning and bolting and falling off gear placements at new crags all over West Virginia. Every one of us was vehemently opposed to chipping/manufacturing for the express intent of creating holds. And every one of us was honest enough to accept that what we were doing was somewhat the same, different only in our goals; to creat a safe new crag with well-spaced bolts/better gear placements, while preserving the overall character of the area. So far, feedback indicates that we succeeded.
Where does cleaning become chipping? I think it is all intent. If you remove the loose flake with a crowbar or screwdriver, it may be more for the fact that doing so all the way up a 100-foot wall is much easier on the fingers and hands you need to climb with, instead of the intention to creat new holds or because it took that much force to remove the detritus. Limestone and sandstone, here in the southeast, often hide bulletproof faces under a weathered patina of choss and loose flakes. This has always been the reason for my own use of tools in the cleaning process (which, BTW, is usually followed by a ground up bolting session or gear attempt).
Again: if you scrub a sandstone hold with a steel brush to remove lichen or dirt, then you are doing so to expose the hold's quality. If you do so because the hold is too slick or sloped for your comfort, then you are attempting to improve the hold's quality.
As you say, a matter of degrees, but I think the judging process should be conducted in light of intent, as well as degrees.
Once again, a great thread.
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karma274
Jan 20, 2003, 6:10 AM
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Kalcario, several weeks ago I went on a climbing trip with several people, one of whom had much experience in trad and sport climbing, but little in the way of bouldering. While he didn't share as much disdain for bouldering as you do, the idea of cranking on some small stones didn't exactly excite him.
The group of us went bouldering, and after crankin for a bit I went wandering around just to look at problems and scope for new lines and stuff. I came back to see the group goofing around on this piece of rock that was no more than 8 feet high. Even to me, a boulderer, it looked kind of pointless to climb. But the trad/sport guy did this arete sloper problem on it that he thought was just phenomenal. I put my shoes on, and gave it a shot. While it was pretty easy, it was indeed really fun, and the holds were really cool. The sport/trad guy decided that he would like to pursue bouldering more in the future, in addition to sport and trad climbing.
My point is this: If it's fun, who cares what it's labeled, or what it looks like to an observer? I've had equally enjoyable days bouldering and sport climbing. Frankly, I don't understand why you think bouldering is so stupid. I hope that some day someone will get you to shoe up, chalk up, and crank on some small stones without a harness, and you discover how much fun bouldering can be. If you limit yourself to sport climbing, you're missing out on some good times.
And if you don't think bouldering is bold, just take a look at Evilution, or the Thimble, or Fear of the Black Hat. You could be seriously injured or die falling off of these problems. In fact, injury is pretty likely. More than can be said for lots of sport climbs.
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karma274
Jan 20, 2003, 6:39 AM
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I must agree with Ronin in that there is a notable difference between cleaning and chipping.
The sport crags in MN would not be climbable without excessive cleaning, testing, and removing of loose holds and flakes. And without large amounts of brushing, there would be insane amounts of dirt and rockdust to wade through. We don't have the best limestone here. Without large amounts of preparation, it would be entirely worthless to try and climb. Much of this cleaning would be impossible armed with only a toothbrush.
Even the trad climbers on the north shore of Lake Superior in MN, who are completely opposed to the use of bolts, and chalk, have used crowbars to pry off the many loose death flakes that are created by the vicious freeze-thaw cycle. Wire brushes are also widely employed, as the rock is extremely hard (its very much like granite)and also covered with excessive lichen.
I must ask: Why would you be opposed to the removal of loose holds, as long as said removal is not done with the intent of making the climb easier or harder, only safer, more enjoyable, and cleaner?
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karma274
Jan 21, 2003, 7:00 PM
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Anyone? Anyone?
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boulderingmadman
Jan 21, 2003, 7:06 PM
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ill bite...again
it depends, really, on the climb, the location, and the methods used to clean. out in the fjords of greenland, i would say cleaning for safety should be frowned upon, as it is a wilderness, and should be climbed as is, including any dangers due to the condition of the rock.
if its in a place like sport park, where the lives and health of thousands of climbers could be at risk, cleaning for safety should be practiced, though it should be done under the supervision of the land managers...and better yet by the land managers to prevent causing access issues.
there is no cut and dry answer to the questions posed in the original topic, nor to your question. but just the fact that it causes people to re-think their stand on the issue is enough to warrant a response...
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karma274
Jan 22, 2003, 4:18 AM
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You flame madman, yet no one else, including yourself, has the balls enough to even tackle the situation I have described.
When the situation isn't black and white, you RC.com'ers fold like a cheap card table and resort to flaming.
So can anyone come up with a solid, logical, flame free reasons as to why the cleaning that I have described is wrong, without making sweeping generalizations?
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jonf
Jan 22, 2003, 11:36 PM
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I think its because if you need to use a crowbar to remove those flakes maybe they wont break from the stress they will endure from climbing. Thats a touchy situation though because the flake may come off, maybe not for a number of years though. You could always just leave those flakes and make sure that people are cautious when on those routes and belaying, and maybe eventually the hold will break maybe it won't. I can understand people wanting to remove large flakes like these if they pose a serious danger.
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dingus
Jan 22, 2003, 11:59 PM
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“So can anyone come up with a solid, logical, flame free reasons as to why the cleaning that I have described is wrong, without making sweeping generalizations?”
I thought the thread had died! Perhaps I am not the best to answer this as I am not so generous as to appreciate the distinction between this sort of cleaning and outright chipping, but here it goes:
You challenged previously: “I must ask: Why would you be opposed to the removal of loose holds, as long as said removal is not done with the intent of making the climb easier or harder, only safer, more enjoyable, and cleaner?”
Intent? Does it all come down to intent? Now we have to understand the mindset of the chipper? Did she do it out of convenience? Cowardice? Public service? What constitutes “more enjoyable” anyway?
Safer is arguably easier. If a chipper pries 12 blocks out of a choss pile on the way to the creation of a route, and 11 of them are removed for safety reasons, does the intent behind removal of the 12th make a difference? What if the chipper deluded herself into the rationalization that “it was loose anyway.”
I’d suggest that the ‘intent’ argument is not the way to go. I still respectfully suggest that only logical basis for making the determination is local ethic. I know of many cliffs where such aggressive cleaning would simply not be tolerated, for a variety of reasons, safety or no.
Finally, back in the early 80’s, Jr. Bishop and I established about a dozen routes on Sydney Bluff, just across the river from Ashland City near Clarksville Tennessee. This cliff is the epitome of “loose limestone.” In those days there was never any discussion about top down anything, bolts or cleaning. You simply played the cards you were dealt. Most of the routes are death climbs. Since we were the only ones doing them, it didn’t matter to us what others might have thought, or what risk they might incur attempting them. Never entered our minds.
So the justification of “safety” is a straw dog in my opinion. Safety is not a requirement for climbing, though I’ll personally take it when I can get it if you know what I mean. Nowadays, had I to do it over again, I would rap clean and bolt and create some routes others might enjoy following. And yet, oddly or not, I’m quite proud of those crazy climbs we led with hexes and false bravado.
Nope, the safety exclusion to chipping is lost on me. That distinction is just another way of altering the rock. And I say, in certain situations, at certain areas, that’s cool by me.
As far as I know, the routes are still there, most of them awaiting 3rd ascents (we each led and followed every one of them). I did once publish the route info to the long defunct Tennessee Climber’s Coalition newsletter, circa something like 1985 or so…
DMT
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boulderingmadman
Jan 25, 2003, 3:06 AM
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mhr2000--for someone who was soooo adamant about me reading into his posts, you have certainly drawn an awful lot of false conclusions.
never have i said cleaning was wrong...as long as it is not done with tools other than your hands. nowhere in the above post do i advocate the use of tools, as you seem to have assumed.
i also stated that if it was a wilderness area, it should be left alone.
i also see a huge differencing between pushing loose an already broken section of rock, and reattaching an already, or about to break, piece of rock.
i also stated that the sitatutions would warrant the approval of the land managers if not the participation before any cleaning is done.
so, please point out for me...exactly where is the contradiction? exactly how idiotic are gonna make yourself look before you back the %@#$ up off me?
[ This Message was edited by: boulderingmadman on 2003-01-24 19:08 ]
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marks
Jan 26, 2003, 10:02 AM
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no chipping-as simple as that ,if you are not good enough to climb a route tough luck thats your fault,so dont chip the rock.
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karma274
Jan 28, 2003, 5:33 AM
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Oh, I've always agreed with the local ethics stance. I just wanted to hear some other opinions on the issue.
Another log for the fire:
If a block gets pried off of the face of a cliff, because it was deemed a safety hazard by the first ascensionist, some would argue that the route has been manufactured, brought down to one's level, chipped, whatever. Many of you seem to hold this belief.
However, if the block came off under a climber's foot, the cliff face is being altered just the same, no?
And yet, it's been argued that, "intent does not matter". Foothold or crowbar, if the block or flake or whatever gets pulled off, the cliff face is still being altered in a way.
What do you guys thing about this? You are either knocking holds off beforehand to make the climb less hazardous, or you are allowing the blocks to be knocked off by the climber that is unlucky enough to use them in the wrong way. (Let's assume the block would definitely come out under body weight, for the sake of arguement. I know there are grey areas.)
Discuss.
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kalcario
Jan 28, 2003, 5:48 AM
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*Frankly, I don't understand why you think bouldering is so stupid. I hope that some day someone will get you to shoe up, chalk up, and crank on some small stones without a harness, and you discover how much fun bouldering can be. If you limit yourself to sport climbing, you're missing out on some good times.*
Uhh...climbing since 70's, bouldered tons all over western U.S., 4 trips to Hueco between 84 and 89, usually in the company of some of the luminaries of our sport, in addition to 3 El Cap routes and thousands of pitches of trad climbing, would never dream of limiting myself to just sport climbing...basically done it all so don't label me either. Just feel sorry for all the kids who are new to the sport and who had the misfortune to buy into the current bouldering fad and who will never become real climbers.
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karma274
Jan 28, 2003, 5:58 AM
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You have yet to define the aspect that separates bouldering from "real climbing". Or define "real climbing" for that matter.
Making generalizations and analogies about sports that have nothing to do with climbing is a really poor argument.
The way I, and 99% of other people see it, if you're climbing on rocks outdoors, its "real climbing".
Your failure to address the questions posed to you does little to sway others towards your stance.
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