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rockprodigy
May 21, 2003, 5:02 AM
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How can you rate something A6 if you walked away from it!? How do you know a placement is "bodyweight only" unless you fall on it? Then if you do, and you don't die, it's not "bodyweight only".
He's free to rate stuff as hard as he wants, but aid climbing is impossible to verify...the route changes with each ascent, so why not rate something A6? A little humility would be more impressive....
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socalbolter
May 21, 2003, 5:02 AM
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as for beyer's A6, i'm curious as to the public opinion on this one.
the last published reporting that i remember about this route ("intifada") was that it was something of an eliminate, with the route following thin features that were often times within feet of A3 cracks and seams. i seem to remember richard jensen repeating it (?) by following the easier options on the line and rating it significantly easier.
i've done my fair share of aid and wall climbing and respect beyer's ascent. if he chose to test his mettle by selecting and limiting himself to the hardest string of features possible on the route, then his ascent may very well be A6.
the fact that someone else then climbed the same section of rock by a string of features offering the line of weakness up the tower does not negate that. i am curious however as to how this route is currently referred (A6 or easier)?
calling all wall and aid climbers (whether of the armchair or reality variety), please chime in.
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addiroids
May 21, 2003, 5:53 AM
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Well this just goes to show that given any argument, limp wristed sport climbers from the midwest (or anywhere for that matter) cannot win an argument with a 40 year old, hairy, 200 pound neanderthal who has beaten his brain, body and soul to within an inch of death, fried his mind on every kind of drug imaginable, and still has the intellectual fortitude to win this argument.
Or is it because when we are comparing some loud chosspile dynamited freeway wall to beautiful mud towers that the climbing just speaks for itself??
I think Latitudes could go up there too. Put up in 1996 (probably have some history wrong here), 8 or so pitches of A4+, took like 8 days for the FA and repeated by Ammon and Brian in 18 hours. Okay so Beyer's routes are probably harder, just trying to give some props to my buddy Ammon.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag - who believes any beer that is 3.2 EtOH can not call itself beer. Especially beer not worth drinking after epic-ing in the Fishers.
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tradmanclimbs
May 21, 2003, 2:44 PM
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Photon obviously has some insecurity issues. I re read the post and it was totaly civil and had a touch of humor going and then photon came on the scene and tried to prove what an insecure antagonnistic moron he is. By the way Lyn Hill was a trad climber longbefore spurt climbing hit the scene here in the states. As for the hardest climb goes, it would be interesting to talk to some of the guys that are world class sport and trad climbers and see their take on the subject. Does Alex huber feel that a 100 ft 15a is harder than his 1500 ft 13d trad climb? as far as utah goes I honestly feel that those sandy chimneys are way harder and scarier than any sport climbs I have done but I am from the east and get totaly spanked every time i go out there. Granted it is diferent styles of climbing. I solo aid bolted a 5.12 sport climb and I can't free climb it past the 3rd bolt so free climbing is definatly harder yet no one would be climbing it period if I didn't go up there and put the jewlrey in place. I watched a kid work the rt the other day and was impressed by the moves he was makeing that I doubt I could ever do. I took him on his first multi pitch yesterday and he had to grab gear on a 5.8 move 300 ft of the deck so I guess it's all relitive.
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photonic
May 21, 2003, 3:22 PM
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In reply to: Photon obviously has some insecurity issues. I re read the post and it was totaly civil and had a touch of humor going and then photon came on the scene and tried to prove what an insecure antagonnistic moron he is.
In reply to: Since none of you "bad ass" armchair mountaineers has even the faintest idea of what it takes to climb 5.11, let alone 5.14, your basesless comparisons are humorous and revealing. You may as well give your opinion on brain surgery compared to piloting an F-15 or something it's just as valid and less prone to come under scrutiny on this site at least. I'm assuming the person who started this thread was wandering what the hardest free climbing rock route in Utah was, not who the biggest idiot on this site was? I agree with the lazy boyz/girlz though, generally an impossible question to answer. Hardest crack climb- maybe it is Dean's "new" climb (which I believe was "worked" in a sport climbing fashion over many tries over several years to be able to finally do it.) Obviously there are a ton of hard crack's in S. Utah. I can guarantee you though that Dean will never be able to (or want to) send the hardest sport routes in Utah. So that nullifies his climb, right? (armchair mountaineers logic sucks, no?) Hardest sport route- Take your pick Psychedelic, Ice Scream or Nec Evil, (no AZ climbers had really anything to do with the VRG, so it's a Utah crag imo) Teach Dave how to use a cam he could probably send most any crack in Utah within a month or so, like Sharma and every other good sport climber who cared to dabble. That's a hard pill to swallow isn't it "trad" dudes! Probably the greatest day of trad climbing ever, The Nose free, was done by a woman sport climber! Ha ha ha ha that is rich! oh yeah right behind her, Yuji, Huber bros, Tommy Caldwell, (all card carrying die-hard "sport climbers"), Well, actually, they are just pure climbers who don't let training and close mindedness get in their way. so the answer is, climb it all or you won't be able to have as much fun
In reply to: w6... I did list some of the hardest climbs in Utah and tried to make a point which obviously was lost on you. Please do what you want with your climbing pro and your imagination, I'll use my gear for climbing rocks. "Does fixin' F-16's count? (...har har...sorry, couldnt' resist)" only if you try to relate it to something you have no idea about.
just for prosperity
photon likes to open the mouth then edit
i am here to keep things straight
yours truly
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photon
May 21, 2003, 4:11 PM
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"just for prosperity
photon likes to open the mouth then edit
i am here to keep things straight "
like anyone really gives a crap gumby.
Shouldn't you be inviting some
high school kids over to your house to get drunk with you
or something?
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wc
May 21, 2003, 4:35 PM
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In reply to: i am pretty sure that the hardest route in utah is i scream in hell cave, american fork canyon. it is rated 5.14c, and has only had three ascents that i know of. boone speed, a hard ass from salt lake, i donīt remember his name, and dave grahm, i am not sure if sharma has done it. also there is a project that some say sill go at 5.15 in pipe dream cave, maple canyon, its called dreamtime extension, but i think that it will go at like 14c or easier. hope this helps.
Let's define "hard". If by hard you mean finger wrecking crimps on an overhanging face that favors 100 lb, rail thin mutants with sick finger strength then I suppose iscream would be the hardest.
I will bet money Speed, Grahm, and Roth couldn't touch certain 14's in the state (even some 13's) because the routes just wouldn't fit them. I remember seeing Roth bouldering in the gym when he was pretty young. He was pulling on stuff others couldn't touch (including Speed, Jeffery, etc) and it wasn't hard for him. He warmed up on panel features, for HAND HOLDS. At that time he was far from being a good climber, he could just pull really hard on really small holds. Of course he couldn't touch Steven's sloper problems, but neither could Sharma.
As the labs turn out more and more mutants we will see a shift in what people think is hard. I will bet those guys would have a harder time sending the 5.13 cracks of yesteryear than they would "the hardest" routes of today. But why would they subject themselves to such pain you ask? The same is being said for the grim crimping routes of today. Soon all "the hardest" routes (and hardest climbers) will be defined by simple pulling on perfectly textured slopers with no tweak potential, all set to techno music in a simulated climbing environment.
My suggestion, if you are a sport climber and you want "the hardest" routes go try some desert cracks. If you are Steve Petro and have spent your life doing cracks because that is the only kind of climbing you can do, try some overhanging crimper routes. (Sorry Steve, I just find if funny when people send 5.14 crack and flail all over 5.11 sport and vice versa. Especially when they are an egotistical dickhead at the crags).
Does anyone know if "No Way Jose" has seen a second? I bet that would rank pretty high on the list of hardest routes for most people. I believe the ever humble Jose gave it 5.13 because he claimed he couldn't climb 5.14. Time will tell I guess. :mrgreen:
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hasbeen
May 21, 2003, 5:18 PM
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Since A5, by modern definition (notice lack of A5 in the Valley in new ratings), means that if you fall you'll die, what could A6 possibly mean, eternal damnation? Life in purgatory? Perhaps you don't get to die if you fail but are forced to walk the earth with the undead. Man, I don't know what kind of deal Beyer struck up with El Mephisto for this one but it sounds pretty hard to me.
And, by the way, if anyone does manage to second it I suggest we burn em at a stake, pronto. We certainly don't want those people loose in society. I mean, you've all seen The Omen, right?
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stickclipper
May 21, 2003, 6:50 PM
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In reply to: How can you rate something A6 if you walked away from it!? How do you know a placement is "bodyweight only" unless you fall on it? Then if you do, and you don't die, it's not "bodyweight only". He's free to rate stuff as hard as he wants, but aid climbing is impossible to verify...the route changes with each ascent, so why not rate something A6? A little humility would be more impressive....
beyer has climbed multiple A5's. Rating something A6 is certainly not about ego. His 5.10 A6 route was listed in the recent Seven Summits issue of Climbing as one of the seven "hardest" in the lower 48. Tim Wegner repeated it (solo, like Beyer, since having a belayer is pointless since there are no belays!) and confirmed it. There are only a couple A6's in the world. From the little I know on Beyer, he is unbelievable.
And as for knowing whether or not a piece is body weight only... well... you can be pretty damn sure when a something will or won't hold a fall.
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stickclipper
May 21, 2003, 6:54 PM
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In reply to: Since A5, by modern definition (notice lack of A5 in the Valley in new ratings), means that if you fall you'll die, what could A6 possibly mean, eternal damnation? Life in purgatory? Perhaps you don't get to die if you fail but are forced to walk the earth with the undead. Man, I don't know what kind of deal Beyer struck up with El Mephisto for this one but it sounds pretty hard to me. And, by the way, if anyone does manage to second it I suggest we burn em at a stake, pronto. We certainly don't want those people loose in society. I mean, you've all seen The Omen, right?
As stated, Tim did second it. Secondly, A5 is body weight placement for an entire pitch, but with a good belay (meaning a leader fall at the top of an A5 pitch is looking at 300+ feet). Above A5 was theoretical until recently (not sure when first one was done), but it is defined as A5 (bodyweight) placements all the way up, but with bad anchors - if you fall, you fall to the ground.
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stickclipper
May 21, 2003, 7:25 PM
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Thanks - interesting page here. And I just saw another that said Wagner found "Dead Man's Party" (a grade 6, 5.9, A5 beyer route on Echo Tower) to be more difficult than Intifada. And Wagner actually believes that in the current era, there is no A6. So it's a very debatable topic. Especially considering the "1/4 holes" put in on Intifada, something I wasn't aware of. So who knows.
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stickclipper
May 21, 2003, 7:36 PM
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http://www.planetfear.com/climbing/highmountainmag/mountaininfo/1996-1998/Infoct98.html
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rockprodigy
May 21, 2003, 8:23 PM
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You said:
In reply to: Tim Wegner(sic) repeated it...
But I already said:
In reply to: I think the best way to determine "what style is the hardest", is to estimate the chances of something being repeated
So Intifada's already been repeated?! Why are we even discussing it as possibly the hardest route?
Psychedelic hasn't been repeated, and it HAS been tried by good climbers.
In reply to: And Wagner actually believes that in the current era, there is no A6.
OK, admit you were wrong, and I was right...
haha, just kidding, I already know I'm right.
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hasbeen
May 21, 2003, 8:23 PM
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Tim Wegner repeated it (solo, like Beyer, since having a belayer is pointless since there are no belays!) and confirmed it. There are only a couple A6's in the world. From the little I know on Beyer, he is unbelievable.
And as for knowing whether or not a piece is body weight only... well... you can be pretty damn sure when a something will or won't hold a fall.
Ummm, maybe you're not exactly clear on how this works. They both set up belays and could fall off (well, maybe, but at least they assumed they could). When you solo, you rap the pitch and clean your gear.
They way you test whether or not a piece will hold is to bounce test it like mad. You really never know exactly when something will or will not hold. Hooks you don't bounce test but it's common to drill placements (but no A5 if you do). Anyway, I've had hooks actually hold leader falls from the placement above. They aren't supposed to, but they have. So you just never know.
A6 not egotistical, gimme a friggin' break!? It's ridiculously presumptuous to make that claim, especially if you haven't repeated most of the hardest pitches in the world (he hasn't). Plus, he drilled the crap out of the route, so he must REALLY assume a superior drilling techniques (1/4"). C'mon, it's insane. Let me repeat something, this isn't really HARD. Scary? Hell yeah. I've climbed in the Fisher's and it's crazy bad rock (or dirt), and I even kinda like bad rock. But it's really bad. Still, to drill up something and then say it's some sort of world standard shows and inferiority complex that's beyond compare. I guarantee you that someone could ascend one of these routes without drilling anything. Sure, they might die--probably would even. But if you can do one non-drilled placement you can do a hundred (which scares me even to write). But it is possible. Once the drill is out, you're cheating--or showing good sense given the area--but you're not creating a world standard route in this day and age, I assure you.
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wc
May 21, 2003, 8:28 PM
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In reply to: As stated, Tim did second it. Secondly, A5 is body weight placement for an entire pitch, but with a good belay (meaning a leader fall at the top of an A5 pitch is looking at 300+ feet). Above A5 was theoretical until recently (not sure when first one was done), but it is defined as A5 (bodyweight) placements all the way up, but with bad anchors - if you fall, you fall to the ground.
This goes beyond my comprehension.
1) All the placements I ever make could hold bodyweight so are they bodyweight placements? Do I climb A5? Are you trying to tell me that aid climbers don't test the placements to some degree? If so they are by definition slightly more than bodyweight placements, dropping the rating.
2) The concept of one hand clapping is also theoretical, as is the sound of a tree falling in the forest with nobody around to hear it, as is your assumption that all the placements, including the anchors, will fail given a fall. I for one say that a fall at the end of every A5 and A6 pitch is mandatory to justify the rating.
"Aid climbing is neither."
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atg200
May 21, 2003, 8:55 PM
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uhh, what hasbeen?
beyer has repeated plenty of hard routes. soloing reticent wall on el cap comes to mind. his routes are plenty hard if somewhat ethically tainted by manufactured head placements or whatever. and plenty of yosemite climbers trench heads or drill long stretches of bathook holes - it happens everywhere.
aid climbing ratings are totally goofy. beyer has a very carefully thought out system for rating aid climbs, but he is the only one who uses it so those ratings aren't too relevant to the rest of us. still, they are more useful than the guys calling everything they do A2 no matter how hard it is.
and the rock in the fishers really isn't that bad. some of the pitches i've done there are really quite solid, and phantom sprint on echo tower is beautiful, solid, sustained, and completely natural. the rock is bullet with a coating of mud over the top, and it doesn't compare with the pegmatite in the black canyon, the truly bad rock on the mystery towers, or even entrada sandstone in my opinion.
many of these fisher tower routes are not going up without drilling, period. there just aren't very many really natural lines there since continuous crack systems are so rare. is it better to have endless ladders of bolt mank like colorado ridge on the kingfisher or the north chimney on echo tower, or trench heads and other wierdness like on intifada or world's end? i've not done any beyer routes in the fishers aside from phantom sprint which is unusual, so i'm not really qualified to say one way or the other just yet.
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stickclipper
May 21, 2003, 8:56 PM
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[quote="hasbeen"][
Ummm, maybe you're not exactly clear on how this works. They both set up belays and could fall off (well, maybe, but at least they assumed they could). When you solo, you rap the pitch and clean your gear.
apologies. i wasn't clear - by saying there weren't belays, i simply meant there weren't "bomber" belays in the traditional multi pitch sense and that risking a belayers life in such a situation would be rather pointless. however, based on the article that someone sent out, it seems that there were good belays on Beyer's stuff, so it's a moot point.
and as for breaking out the drill bit, I am in total agreement - it is crossing the line. That doesn't take away, however, from the fact that many of Beyer's routes are Extremely serious.
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stickclipper
May 21, 2003, 9:00 PM
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Clarified - crossing the line in the sense that, with a drill bit, I don't think you can claim the routes to be of the highest level of danger (the characteristic with which hard aid often garners its fame).
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bvb
May 28, 2003, 8:55 PM
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i didn't read all the way through this thread, but I assume at some point it was mentioned that Tim's last name is Wagner, not "Wegner"?
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brianinslc
May 28, 2003, 9:08 PM
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In reply to: i didn't read all the way through this thread, but I assume at some point it was mentioned that Tim's last name is Wagner, not "Wegner"?
I think its actually, "Schwagner" and he's a skateboarder, not a climber.
Har har.
35 footer onto a tied off knifeblade...? Eeek...
Brian in SLC
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joens
May 28, 2003, 10:16 PM
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by far the hardest route in utah is I-15 from Provo to SLC worst drivers I ever saw .Especially when all the construction was going on before the olympics. :lol: :lol:
Joens
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pbjosh
May 28, 2003, 11:41 PM
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In reply to: Tim Wegner repeated it (solo, like Beyer, since having a belayer is pointless since there are no belays!) and confirmed it.
Indeed, Tim Wagner did repeat Intifada and confirmed that it was a very difficult line and the Jim Beyer had picked a beautiful line. He also said that A5 was even perhaps just a theoretical grade and called it A4 or A4+, and said that if you belayed in different spots (which he did), the belays were solid.
josh
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alpinestylist
Jun 1, 2003, 6:36 PM
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So most of you seem very uneducated about these things. Not that I am, but I have some experience with some of these things.
I will never climb 5.14.
I have chased Jim Beyer for years and climbed a lot of his routes.
He uses his own rating system, not the "modern" numbers. Once you get used to it I find it way more accurate in telling you what you are going to encounter than other peoples systems. Oh yeah, he uses ABCD too.
Numbers are nothing...
Climbing the steepest ladder with the smallest holds may be physically taxing, but does not call upon any other skills a well rounded climber needs.
The kid from Kansas flipping cracks me up. Have fun at the Kansas cliff club, and leave the deliberation of A6 death falls to people that live it.
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photon
Jun 2, 2003, 6:49 PM
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This is the classic I think and it even resurrects a stupid dead thread
kudos
"So most of you seem very uneducated about these things. Not that I am, but I have some experience with some of these things.
I will never climb 5.14. "
Exactly since you have no idea what is involved to free climb rocks at this level, comparing it something else is moot
"Climbing the steepest ladder with the smallest holds may be physically taxing, but does not call upon any other skills a well rounded climber needs. "
no one climbs ladders with small holds for starters and again how the f%^& do you know what is required?
"The kid from Kansas flipping cracks me up. Have fun at the Kansas cliff club, and leave the deliberation of A6 death falls to people that live it."
Does anyone live in Kansas that has posted to this thread? Anyway , I'll leave you to your couch and your A6 death fall "deliberation"-- you got a tall couch!
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