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kalcario
Nov 13, 2003, 5:46 AM
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I think people will follow his example and start toproping more now. Instead of the "Hot Flashes" column in Climbing, we'll have "Hot Anchors", you know, because the anchors get hot from all the rope friction...also you know it's only a matter of time before circus nets replace crash pads as the next way to generate attention for otherwise insignificant ascents...
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sharpender
Nov 14, 2003, 2:33 AM
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Fug the rhetoric. Chop the bolts. Climb clean. 8)
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rockfax
Nov 14, 2003, 3:00 AM
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In reply to: I think people will follow his example and start toproping more now. Instead of the "Hot Flashes" column in Climbing, we'll have "Hot Anchors", you know, because the anchors get hot from all the rope friction...also you know it's only a matter of time before circus nets replace crash pads as the next way to generate attention for otherwise insignificant ascents...
Sharp Kalcario, but as usual just a tad too cynical.
It's not just Kehls but Dave Sharrat and Tim Kemple in New England, and Matt Samet in Boulder who are pushing the boat out in the USA.....and others. ...Potter.....Croft....
I suppose the best example is what is happening in the UK with young climbers like Pete Hurley, Ben Heason, Jordan Buys, Adam Lincoln and others.
I'm guessing but a lot of these climbers are gym-trained, are also keen sport climbers but are looking for exciting challanges that headpointing, trad climbing, soloing, deep water soloing and highball bouldering give.
Like Ken Wilson (a loud spokesperson in the UK) says, quite loudly, sport climbing is crag excercising and the NEW YOUTH get bored with it quickly.
This might have a trickle down effect if these young pioneers get the limelight they deserve....the media have some responsibility and I mean above just reporting what goes on but making some effort to analysis and discuss it....some chance I know, but I am a pathetic optimist.
The end result may be that climbers resort not to hiding down a bolt hole at the first sign of danger but as a first line of defence they grab a nut or a cam, or as you say they use the safety net of a pad or a top rope, surely better than getting the drill out of the holster.
In essence it may lead to FEWER bolts.
best regards,
Mick
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dirko
Nov 14, 2003, 3:43 AM
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Kehl, Potter, Kemple... right now all I see most of the neo-trad movement being implemented from the top down. Prominent climbers may find that their ethical stance coincides with acts that grab their sponsors attention. A grassroots trad movement has yet to appear in the US. Of course, new climbers aren't going to be climbings R-rated routes, but considering their gym-climbing background there exists no reason for them to aspire to such goals. I guess I am saying is that I am skeptical of the motives of those pushing the envelope in the trad climbing arena....
The questions in my mind are:
Does increased bolting = increased safety at the crags? Perhaps less-bolted lines inspire more caution and a slower learning curve...perhaps they do not.
Does increased bolting threaten access?
Does increased bolting affect the climbing experience?
I think that creating dangerous bolted routes is folly. I guess we all have a different definition of dangerous though.
-The first generation of climbers were the pioneers and the stonemasters. They created our sport.
-The next generation of climbers are the gym climbers/boulderers. They are defining climbing today.
-The next generation of climbers will be the one that faces the reality that bolts don't last forever. That will be interesting.
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rockfax
Nov 14, 2003, 5:15 AM
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In reply to: Kehl, Potter, Kemple... right now all I see most of the neo-trad movement being implemented from the top down. Prominent climbers may find that their ethical stance coincides with acts that grab their sponsors attention. A grassroots trad movement has yet to appear in the US.
It has always started from the top. These climbers's lead, in more ways than one.
Celebrity climbers do, for good reason, attract the attention of mainstream climbing, witness print adverts that feature them, or even the # of views a climbing thead gets with a well-knowen name in the thread.
In reply to: Of course, new climbers aren't going to be climbings R-rated routes, but considering their gym-climbing background there exists no reason for them to aspire to such goals. I guess I am saying is that I am skeptical of the motives of those pushing the envelope in the trad climbing arena....
Some of the boldest climbers in the world today (see my post above) are often gym-introduced to climbing and gym-trained and many evolve from the gym to do many on-sight and bold and "traditional" ascents. I have witnessed this.
In reply to: The questions in my mind are: Does increased bolting = increased safety at the crags?.
Yes it does, less chance of a ground fall or gear failure. That is a basic understanding
In reply to: Perhaps less-bolted lines inspire more caution and a slower learning curve...perhaps they do not..
Less bolts means a higher the skill level you have to attain to "save" yourself (placing gear). This takes time to learn.
In reply to: Does increased bolting threaten access?
Yes. A bolted cliff attracts lots of climbers who cause impacts.
In reply to: Does increased bolting affect the climbing experience?
Without a doubt. Whether that is positive or begative depends on the individual.
In reply to: I think that creating dangerous bolted routes is folly.
No it isn't. It is the decision of the first ascensionists. A route that may require bolting may not require bolts at equal intervals, some may be minimal bolted due to alternative gear or because of moderate climbing. Climbing is not an egalitarian sport it is elitist, long may it be so or we have no goals to chase.
In reply to: I guess we all have a different definition of dangerous though.
You guess correctly.
In reply to: -The first generation of climbers were the pioneers and the stonemasters. They created our sport. -The next generation of climbers are the gym climbers/boulderers. They are defining climbing today. -The next generation of climbers will be the one that faces the reality that bolts don't last forever. That will be interesting.
Combine all three, the past and the present and the hope for the future and you have what we are experiencing today.
Mick
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neeshman
Nov 14, 2003, 5:57 AM
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I am probably the least qualified person to be voicing my opinion on this topic. But here we go.
From my point of view the climbing scene has gone through a complete evolution. Take a look at the Traditional guys out there. The Old School guys with 1,000's (literally) of exciting stories to tell. They were all making their own gear, using it knowing that it probably wouldn't hold but hey! what the hell, lets do it anyways! Their whole lives were centered around climbing. These people lived @ Camp 4 for huge portions of their lives. They took year long road trips to go climbing. The list goes on and on and on. They are truly awesome people.
But now climbing has gone mainstream because of how easy and safe it has become. No more questioning your last point of pro, cause it's a bolt. No more equalizing ALL your anchors, cause you can throw 2 draws in @ top and be fine. Instead of spending $1000's and $1000's of dollars on gear, you only have to spend $500 for EVERYTHING you need to sport climb, and $200 for bouldering. No more hauling 75 lbs of gear around and taking a full day approach cause you can load your tiny Camelbak with 15 lbs or gear and head 30 min down the street to the local sport crag.
Climbing has gone from being a "lifestyle" to more of a "sport". It is now something you can do in 30 min rather than 30 days. It no longer has to be an uber expensive thing. It's something to do after work or school, not something you do instead of work or school. We are smack dab in the middle of this huge change. And we have those who are trying to keep the old ways here, and the new-comers who are obviously keeping the innovation train moving. Every sport has it's evolution. Skiing ---> Snowboarding, Water Skiing ---> Wakeboarding, Basketball ---> Slamball, Sprinting ---> Hurtles. Someone will always find a different way to get the same thing done.
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boltdude
Nov 14, 2003, 6:48 PM
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Good thread, rockfax. Definitely too much bolting going on, and retrobolting on classic trad routes at places like Red Rocks is getting really annoying (Tunnel Vision, Olive Oil, etc).
However, when the mags say it's sexy to free solo and have lots of detailed stuff on Potter and various unroped ascents, Ben Heason on the cover on 5.12X, then don't you think it's headed back away from dumbing everything down with too many bolts?
Too many bolts are being used, yes. However, to be fair, there are places where bolts should be added to preserve trees, or to replace permanent piton anchors (rather than scarring the crack further by placing new pitons). Bolt holes can be patched very effectively, but a piton scarred crack can not. It really depends on the situation.
Also, to be fair, just because some cracks are bolted at Owens doesn't mean that they are retrobolting existing crack routes. Even at Owens, we're talking on the order of 100-150 crack routes with less than 10 bolted, right? And it's not like those are all bolted hand cracks, that route next to Gorgeous requires a monster rack of 3.5"-7" pro. And everyone's favorite example at Rock Creek, the 10b with the bolted finger crack off the deck - that left wall is hollow, pro could easily pop (or break the rock), and that's probably why they bolted. They didn't bolt that overhung 5.11a crack right next to it, and it's really hard to place pro.
Besides, the way most sport crags are being developed these days (first bolt way too low), there'll be plenty of serious accidents as people clip right off the deck, then fall near the second bolt and deck out or smash their belayer...not to mention the usual cause of fatal accidents, namely belay chain errors. Climbing will remain a "deadly" sport no matter what happens.
Again, to be fair, what do you think of all the bolts in your book on Nevada limestone? Do you think clipping 20 plus bolts in a single pitch is justified by a 5.14 rating? If 5.14 climbers get good pro, why shouldn't 5.8 climbers have well bolted climbs? Hypocrisy on the part of elitist climbers can only hurt efforts to educate climbers about traditions and how to climb safely without clipping a ton of bolts.
The real issue is whether people can keep their drills away, or whether the US will end up like places in Europe, with every crack bolted...
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gravitytheory
Nov 14, 2003, 7:16 PM
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Title should be changed to "fewer bolts". :lol:
But in all seriousness, I like to have a bolt every five feet or so on all of my climbs. It makes me feel safe, like I'm in the gym.
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bvb
Nov 14, 2003, 8:17 PM
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In reply to: In the US because there is little collective consciousness (because of the geography
not entirely true. whilst this may be true of youngsters today, anyone who began climbing around the time the first g.p.i.w. catalogue was issued most definitely shares a common experience, or common bond, with their peers. the collective consciousness of the 70's crowd -- and i'm talking the whole decade here, not someone who top-roped their first 5.3 on new years eve 1979 -- remains strong and alive and, perhaps, for some of us, a little bitter.
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climbracer
Nov 15, 2003, 1:02 AM
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No bolts ...PLEASE!!!
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rockfax
Nov 15, 2003, 4:05 AM
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In reply to: Also, to be fair, just because some cracks are bolted at Owens doesn't mean that they are retrobolting existing crack routes. Even at Owens, we're talking on the order of 100-150 crack routes with less than 10 bolted, right?
You could be right.
M
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kalcario
Nov 15, 2003, 4:39 AM
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* The end result may be that climbers resort not to hiding down a bolt hole at the first sign of danger but as a first line of defence they grab a nut or a cam, or as you say they use the safety net of a pad or a top rope, surely better than getting the drill out of the holster.*
This is just meaningless drivel-how is grabbing a nut or a cam going to be a first line of defence on something where nuts and cams don't work?
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tweek
Nov 15, 2003, 4:52 AM
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In reply to: Whatever you think of the significance of Jason Kehl's headpoint solo of The Fly.....and his ropeless ascent (after roped practice) of Evilution and After Midnight, he is leading the way to a mindset that hopefully will see bolts used as a last resort (as it used to be).
Sports climbing and soloing are on opposite ends of the spectrum. It can be likened to swimming in a pool and swimming over Niagra falls. One is too extreme to be a driving factor in the other.
Soloing is either a pure act or a pure act of madeness. I do not see such an impressive feat applicable to my view about bolts in the slightest and if anything it discredits his views. Someone soloing those climbs should not dictate to mortals.
So as to the significance of changing mindsets..... it might be limited to yours but one is better than none :D .
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rockfax
Nov 15, 2003, 4:53 AM
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In reply to: * The end result may be that climbers resort not to hiding down a bolt hole at the first sign of danger but as a first line of defence they grab a nut or a cam, or as you say they use the safety net of a pad or a top rope, surely better than getting the drill out of the holster.* This is just meaningless drivel-how is grabbing a nut or a cam going to be a first line of defence on something where nuts and cams don't work?
It may be meaningless to you whatsyourface but it is what is drives "DIVERSITY" in UK climbing.
Where there is no natural protection, you have three choices: bolt it, headpoint it, or leave it for someone else. The choice is the first ascensionists.
Mick
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boltdude
Nov 15, 2003, 5:13 AM
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Jeez Mick, I thought you remembered that "boltdude" is me (Greg) and "socalbolter" is Louie...and I do report to Marty whenever I replace bolts or put up new routes around here (but you get the same emails).
On another topic...
What effect do you think doing routes from the ground up has on overbolting?
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boltdude
Nov 15, 2003, 5:16 AM
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In reply to: Where there is no natural protection, you have three choices: bolt it, headpoint it, or leave it for someone else. The choice is the first ascensionists.
Oh yeah, Mick - what about running it out on lead on the first ascent? Seems like you missed a choice...
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rockfax
Nov 15, 2003, 5:22 AM
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In reply to: The choice is the first ascensionists.
...and what influences the first ascensionist is their ego and their past experience....
Someone who respects the diversity of the climbing community puts a great deal of thought in to their choice.
Someone who is wrapped up in themselves and loves to beat their chest and cry "look at me" will follow the path of least resistance - that being bolting the crap out of everything. They often use excuses such as...I've opened this route for everyone, or I'm protecting the cliff top vegetation.....we need more lower grade well-protected routes.....or all the routes here are bolted why not this one?
It can be a difficult decision....and making the right decision is not for simple minds......but it is often simple minds who make the decision hence, the dumbing down of climbing.
Mick
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rockfax
Nov 15, 2003, 5:25 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Where there is no natural protection, you have three choices: bolt it, headpoint it, or leave it for someone else. The choice is the first ascensionists. Oh yeah, Mick - what about running it out on lead on the first ascent? Seems like you missed a choice...
Shizzen Greg....this is what happens when you have kids running around, posting on the internet, and tidying the house. Apologies.
You are right...ground-up....and of course the wimp alternative: the top rope.
M
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rockfax
Nov 15, 2003, 5:26 AM
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In reply to: What effect do you think doing routes from the ground up has on overbolting?
Depends who is on the sharp end.
Mick
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bvb
Nov 15, 2003, 5:48 AM
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In reply to: Oh yeah, Mick - what about running it out on lead on the first ascent? Seems like you missed a choice...
don't blame him...he never had the opportunity to see tobin sorenson in action, and so may be unaware of the possibilities embodied in this choice.
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bvb
Nov 15, 2003, 5:53 AM
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In reply to: A grassroots trad movement has yet to appear in the US.
wtf??? up until about 16 years ago, "grassroots trad" was the only kind of climbing there was.
and in many places you are apparently unaware of, it never went away.
of course, dave kennedy and fuckwads like him are trying to kill off the last remaining hiding places of the trad set....
you people should learn your history before you blow smoke.
unless the problem is -- as i suspect -- you simply don't know what it is you don't know.
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riceplate
Nov 15, 2003, 7:01 PM
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In reply to: You are right...ground-up....and of course the wimp alternative: the top rope. M
mind you that it was TR rehersal/cleaning that resulted in all of the "headpoints" of the Grandpa peabody, save perhaps, the Advanced chockcraft route, which was probably bolted ground up.
Does TR rehersal = wimpy?
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riceplate
Nov 15, 2003, 10:21 PM
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In reply to: off topic... has kehl bouldered transporter room? i've always wondered how many ascents that thing's seen.
I doubt that it has seen a second ascent as a boulder problem. It awaits a ground up ascent sans rope.
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sammatt
Nov 15, 2003, 10:58 PM
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Transporter Room -- shudder -- a ghost is walking over my grave. I always wondered, too, if it had had a second ropeless ascent. That problem is completely visionary and was done way before its time--hats off to Dale Bard, big time.
I got partway up one day and just about shat myself. It gets harder the higher you climb, and is a bit crumbly to boot.
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rockfax
Nov 16, 2003, 1:47 AM
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In reply to: Transporter Room -- shudder -- a ghost is walking over my grave. I always wondered, too, if it had had a second ropeless ascent. That problem is completely visionary and was done way before its time--hats off to Dale Bard, big time. I got partway up one day and just about shat myself. It gets harder the higher you climb, and is a bit crumbly to boot.
The story behind that problem as passed down by Eastern Sierra climbers goes someting like...(and as all myths and legends go...take this with a grain of quartz monzonite)......
Dale Bard rap bolted and cleaned the line for his then girlfriend Bobbi Bensman who didn't manage to climb it.
Tommy Herbert...in his pre-embracing sport climbing phase.....ripped the bolts out...probably with his barenaked hands...
Dale then top roped the thing, then solo'ed it....a headpoint ascent....just like Evilution and Rasta Man Vibrations on the same face.
However this was pre-internet era and so some punter couldn't come on to a popular climbing website and spray: BARD'S INFLUENCE: FEWER BOLTS IN AMERICA.
Mick
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