|
dredsovrn
Jun 22, 2004, 12:51 AM
Post #26 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2003
Posts: 1226
|
You can use a double fishermans, square fishermans (easy to untie), overhand with a backup, or eight. They all work. If you think it might be likely to get stuck, use the overhand, otherwise the double fishermans is pretty bomb proof, and as long as you aren't screwing around and bouncing, you won't have any trouble getting it untied.
|
|
|
|
|
sinshan
Jun 22, 2004, 1:02 AM
Post #27 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 93
|
As an avid reader of "accidents in North American Mountaineering," I'm pretty sure I remember catching a few reports that involved knot failure in the case of EDK's, and as such have always abhored the idea of using one on rappell.
Anyone else catch this? Wish I'd kept references to those damn stories. . .
|
|
|
|
|
davidji
Jun 22, 2004, 1:07 AM
Post #28 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1776
|
In reply to: As an avid reader of "accidents in North American Mountaineering," I'm pretty sure I remember catching a few reports that involved knot failure in the case of EDK's, and as such have always abhored the idea of using one on rappell. Anyone else catch this? Wish I'd kept references to those damn stories. . . |
|
|
|
|
imnotbob
Jun 22, 2004, 5:25 AM
Post #29 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 5, 2004
Posts: 80
|
I used to use a double fisherman's but have switched to an overhand WITH LONG TAILS! (just took getting stuck once to change!)
Looks scary at first but works great.
As far as the figure eight with fishermans backup...I've heard from several sources that it's a bad deal. plus, with that much rope in your knot, your back to a single rope rap!
BTW, what does EDK stand for?
|
|
|
|
|
musicman
Jun 22, 2004, 6:00 AM
Post #30 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 828
|
EuropeanDeathKnot, (to the best of my knowledge)
thanks for all the input, but as far as safety goes they all seem to have pro's/con's, it seems that it would be safest with tying the knot i'm most comfortable with which would be the figure 8, it seems like quite a safe knot from my knowledge of sport climbing seeing as how you tie in with it and had a bit of slippage when fallen on but with long enough tails and doing a steady paced rappel it seems to be just fine from what i can gather, it can get a little tricky to untie but with the right amount of teeth applied it'll pop right out! haha, thanks all of you though
[edited for spelling]
|
|
|
|
|
tech_dog
Jun 22, 2004, 6:12 AM
Post #31 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 14, 2004
Posts: 224
|
My undestanding of the EDK was that it only applies to the one sided figure 8, i.e. loose ends both on the same side. The one sided figure 8 is a very weak knot and can fail under very normal loads.
The single overhand is a generally accepted safe knot, and tests have shown that it's nealry as strong as the double fishermans.
|
|
|
|
|
musicman
Jun 22, 2004, 6:20 AM
Post #32 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 828
|
from my basic knowledge double fisherman's seemed/looked safest, (not that looks really count) but since i dont know how to tie it too well i was just thinking that figure 8 seemed good for me, most everyone seems to agree on doublefisherman's,
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Jun 22, 2004, 5:10 PM
Post #33 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
practice, practice, practice. you should be able to tie the double fishermans in your sleep, regardless if you use it for rappel or not. its one of the 'you really need to know this' knots.
however, an overhand pre-tensioned w/ long tails is fine and is quicker and easier to tie and untie.
|
|
|
|
|
davidji
Jun 22, 2004, 5:25 PM
Post #34 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1776
|
In reply to: from my basic knowledge double fisherman's seemed/looked safest, (not that looks really count) but since i dont know how to tie it too well i was just thinking that figure 8 seemed good for me, most everyone seems to agree on doublefisherman's,
People also get into some dicey situations when their rope gets stuck. Sometimes when the rope gets stuck, the retrieval options are pretty risky (e.g. self-belay up stuck rope; prussik up stuck rope). Another danger of getting a stuck rope is it increases the chance of getting benighted
The overhand minimizes the chance of a stuck rope. If you don't know it, you might want to learn (and learn to do it right, with long tails).
I agree that the double fishermans seems very strong. I might choose it for tying a fat rope to a skinny cord. I've read that the overhand is OK there too, but don't know of actual pull-testing, and it can be scary looking.
Oh, and the only time I remember doing something risky to retrieve a stuck rap rope, it wasn't a knot that was stuck. Still, I have a fear of stuck ropes, and try to avoid it by chooseing a small knot.
|
|
|
|
|
taino
Jun 22, 2004, 5:28 PM
Post #35 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 5371
|
I used to use a EDK, but when I actually saw it roll while someone else was on rappel I started used a double EDK - two flat overhands, one as backup tight to the first.
No problems, now.
T
|
|
|
|
|
davidji
Jun 22, 2004, 5:34 PM
Post #36 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1776
|
In reply to: Question: If the EDK is tied with long (12-18 inches) tails and is dressed before anyone rappells is there still a (reasonable) risk of the knot rollng on itself and becoming untied? With long tails the knot would have to roll on itself many, many, many times to become untied.
Edit: how did my answer show up in the thread before your question?
|
|
|
|
|
litedawg
Jun 22, 2004, 5:34 PM
Post #37 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2001
Posts: 337
|
Question:
If the EDK is tied with long (12-18 inches) tails and is dressed before anyone rappels is there still a (reasonable) risk of the knot rolling on itself and becoming untied?
With long tails the knot would have to roll on itself many, many, many times to become untied.
|
|
|
|
|
litedawg
Jun 22, 2004, 10:18 PM
Post #38 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2001
Posts: 337
|
After I posted the question I went back and edited it, you may have replyed while I was editing, this is only a guess.
|
|
|
|
|
taino
Jun 22, 2004, 10:22 PM
Post #39 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 5371
|
In reply to: Question: If the EDK is tied with long (12-18 inches) tails and is dressed before anyone rappels is there still a (reasonable) risk of the knot rolling on itself and becoming untied?
Not really, no. It's within the realm of possibility, especially if the knot wasn't dressed and tight to begin with, but as the EDK gets tighter with every roll it would have to be pretty loose to roll down 18" tails. I generally put in tails about that long, dress the knot properly, and back it up with another overhand tight to the first.
T
|
|
|
|
|
tom_brennan
Jun 24, 2004, 11:20 PM
Post #40 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 26, 2003
Posts: 3
|
See
http://www.bwrs.org.au/research/index.html
for fairly extensive research. Bottom line is, double fishermans is a strong knot, but if you have worries about the pull down, use the Overhand EDK (one-sided overhand bend).
For the Overhand EDK, the idea is that the knot does roll - but each time it rolls it is harder for it to roll again. This is in contrast to the Figure-8 EDK, which rolls further, and can keep rolling at low forces ... all the way to the end ...
Stick to those two knots and you should keep safe.
cheers
Tom
----
tomb@ozultimate.com
Canyoning? try http://www.ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://www.ozultimate.com/bushwalking
|
|
|
|
|
youngphil
Jun 27, 2004, 7:17 PM
Post #41 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 30, 2003
Posts: 25
|
I always use the Double Fishermans knot. True it is a little hard to get untied when you pull them down, but I have never had a problem with it getting stuck or anything like that.
|
|
|
|
|
iclimbtoo
Jun 27, 2004, 9:20 PM
Post #42 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 10, 2002
Posts: 645
|
I tie my rope to the anchors and then just rappel off the end and hope it's nice and soft below
Double fisherman's (aka grapevine) or the figure 9 are good
|
|
|
|
|
pmagistro
Jun 27, 2004, 10:14 PM
Post #43 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 7, 2002
Posts: 89
|
I used to be a big fan of the double fisherman's knot; no doubt that it is a 'safe' option in terms of the knot itself. However, it does become stuck easily and is relatively difficult to untie. The flat knots ('death knots') tend to scare me....especially the single overhand. Too much chance of rollover for me. I really can't come up with a good reason not to use the figure-8 if you insist on a flat knot.
For me, the best compromise between 'safety', ease of use, and probability of getting stuck is a Flemish bend, also known as a figure 8 on a bend. The knot is almost the same as you would use to tie into a rope, just reweave the end of the other rope through the figure eight skeleton.
Couple of reasons...for one, all climbers know and recognize the knot and how to tie it correctly. It is no doubt 'safe' in that it will not come undone if tied correctly. It leaves some chance of stuck ropes, but not quite as bad as with double fishermans or any of the larger knots. Finally, it is quick and easy to tie and untie.
My $.02.....climb safe!
|
|
|
|
|
tech_dog
Jun 27, 2004, 10:48 PM
Post #44 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 14, 2004
Posts: 224
|
In reply to: I used to be a big fan of the double fisherman's knot; no doubt that it is a 'safe' option in terms of the knot itself. However, it does become stuck easily and is relatively difficult to untie. The flat knots ('death knots') tend to scare me....especially the single overhand. Too much chance of rollover for me. I really can't come up with a good reason not to use the figure-8 if you insist on a flat knot.
The flat figure 8 is an exceptionally weak and dangerous knot. You're much better off with the single overhand.
From Tom Moyer's testing page:
"The flat-overhand is clearly better than the flat-figure-eight. The flat-eight is represented three-to-one in the accidents despite (to the best of my knowledge) many more climbers using the overhand. The flat-eight also starts flipping at a lower load (750 lbs vs 1400 lbs for well-tied, 110 lbs vs 200 lbs for badly tied) than the overhand, and it eats two to three times as much tail in each flip."
The test results are here: http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html
|
|
|
|
|
pmagistro
Jun 27, 2004, 11:02 PM
Post #45 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 7, 2002
Posts: 89
|
tech_dog, thanks for the citation. I hadn't seen that study. Moyer's work has changed my climbing habits in the past (with respect to high strength cord)...
Still, I stick with the flemish bend in almost all circumstances. Not out of ignorance for stuck ropes...I've had an epic or two. I find that my partners are generally more comfortable with it, in addition to the reasons I mentioned before.
Boils down to a personal preference, I suppose...
|
|
|
|
|
ductape
Jun 27, 2004, 11:34 PM
Post #46 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2004
Posts: 2
|
[quote="badass"]The safest way is with a figure eight knot with double fishermans backups.
That depends on the situation. A fig-8 is more prone to jamming than an EDK. If you're rapping off a mountain route, with a bad storm coming in, a jammed rope can prove fatal. Death ain't so safe.
RE another posting - using the fact that a bunch of AMCGA guides use a particular method to claim that it is safe/the best/whatever is not the best thought-process, IMO. These guys are really good, sure, but it's a bad trait to say "I see these guys doing X, so X is safe for me" - always think it through for yourself, to see if it makes sense, if it works, and if it's appropriate to your specific problem. Sure, look at what they do, and learn from it (that's a VERY good idea!!) but think it through for yourself. The "why" is even more important than the "what".
|
|
|
|
|
az_biner
Jun 28, 2004, 12:53 AM
Post #47 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2004
Posts: 39
|
if one is worried of their rap knot rolling and untying..use the figure 8 follow through with double fishermans backup...or...the square knot with double fishermans backup. does make you wonder, when a knot has the word death in it doesn't it...as in the edk. the square knot with fishermans backups is easy and fast to tie..and relatively easy to untie. rap on.
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Jun 28, 2004, 1:10 AM
Post #48 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
EDK... Simple well dressed overhand with about 12" of tails.
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Jun 28, 2004, 5:49 AM
Post #50 of 50
(4225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
how can this topic have possibly gotten to 4 pages to tell people about 3 different knots? :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
|
