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wonderwoman
Oct 19, 2004, 3:03 PM
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[quote="crimpandgo"]
New belayer or not, you dont teach the new belayer while you are 30 feet off the ground. Its best to have an experienced person standing right next to them watching the belayer until they are comfortable with the techniques. You cant possibly watch your belayer enough from above to keep you safe while you are climbing.
quote]
My friend who is a guide has to do this all the time! He does a lot of coaching first, but I would not feel comfortable doing that every time I took people out!
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matixa
Oct 19, 2004, 3:30 PM
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[quote="crimpandgo"
New belayer or not, you dont teach the new belayer while you are 30 feet off the ground. Its best to have an experienced person standing right next to them watching the belayer until they are comfortable with the techniques. You cant possibly watch your belayer enough from above to keep you safe while you are climbing.
Very good point and noted. Actually, I've never had a brand new belayer belay me.........I leave the teaching to the professionals. What I meant is someone who knows the mechanics of belaying, but are still nervous. Sometimes it takes someone awhile to get into the groove of pulling in slack efficiently and I pick out a route where I'm pretty confident I won't fall until they are comfortable.
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happiegrrrl
Oct 19, 2004, 3:58 PM
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I'm not saying this is a way to *teach* a new belayer!!! And, I don't condone the "it happens" attitude, as blue eyed climber suggested.
What I was getting at is that the inexperienced (not "first-time at the rock, what's this metal slotted thing you've handed me" person) belayer is not a rare exotic species having only recently been discovered. Like Wonderwoman, and others, suggest, most likely the lax standards in belay are a product of grigri gym climbing, and also a product of the internet.
I'm new, this is my first season out, and I know I am inexperienced. In order to augment the training I received from guides and mentors, I did a tremendous amount of reading. Not only "how to" (totally confusing, those diagrams and paragraphs on what to do; I think belaying is a hands-on (pun) learning experience...), but the history of climbing and the stories of some of our legendary predecessors.
From what I understand, not long ago, people learned to climb through an apprenticeship process. Yes, there were others who self-taught, but there were a lower number of climbers out there, and people didn't run into groups of newbies out teaching even less experienced people the ropes as they were learning them themselves.
Now, it appears there are many, many groups of people out there who know very little more than the most rudimentary skills. That is why I suggest, if you don't know your belayers capacity - don't simply assume they are competant. Scenario - you're up the wall out of sight of your belayer and the rope is slack. Do you say to yourself "Dude's problem if I fall, and I'll just have to rip him a new one....I'm gonna keep climbing." or, do you make sure (s)he's got a clue earlier in the game....
Blue eyed climber - Of course you are right, don't accept belay from an incompetent. I am guessing that you've gotten to know several peers and choose to climb with partners you know and trust. But, the people you described in your post seem to have been a bunch of newbies. True - newbies shouldn't let other newbies drive....but ....they do. Frequently.
I am saying - as a climber - take responsibilty for your own safety. Don't assume that just because someone shakes their head yes when you ask if they know not to take their hand off the brake, that they won't take their hand off the brake....
Teach us to question "authority"(those who are belaying us). Teach us how to make sure those we climb with are safe, and we will more quickly become safe ourselves.
I have climbed with a LOT of experienced climbers, most of whom simply assume I know how to belay, how to tie my knots and how to rap. I have ben shocked at the level of assumption people have made with regard to my ability. Because of my make up, I won't put myself in a situation I feel clueless as to how to handle, but there are plenty out there who will not bother to think things through in that manner.
Nearly always, I am the one who instigates the safety check. I had a first-time partner just the other day rap of Madame G's without asking "Have you ever rapped?" before he took off for the ground.
I had another first-time partner want to do 5.7 for our first climb, even though I told him I would strugle on 5.6. I had to INSIST we climb a lower rate for our first climb. He was pissy about it, but he did it. Then wanted to hop on a 5.7 again....Tried to butt in on a climb and got attitude. We ended up at Sixish (in the Gunks), and I watched him pump out and start to shake 15 feet off deck, with crappy gear and an obvious groundfall. I asked myself how I might better assess a partner's potential in the future, as I held with the most tension I could get and I insisted he place a piece of gear immediately. He wanted to move through to place in a better spot, and I said "Place now, then move and place another. You can go back and get the cam if it's so importamnt for you to have later..." I should not have had to tell a 20 year(as he said) veteran what to do, but I was there. I was the one who was going to have to catch him or watch him splat, and I took responsibilty for my part in the equation.
Just because people THINK they know what they are doing, and they SAY they know what they are doing, doesn't mean they know what they are doing......
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caughtinside
Oct 19, 2004, 4:12 PM
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Folks please, let's keep this civil and not blame the poor, defenseless grigri!
The grigri is actually the best belay device in the hands of an experienced belayer, not the idiot proof belay device that people seem to think it is.
Happie--maybe if you're struggling on 5.6 you should clip a few bolts and get strong, eh? :P
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joeschmoe
Oct 19, 2004, 5:38 PM
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hats off to ya blue, nothing has day ruining potential like carrying a limp body from a crag knowing you did nothing to prevent it. call 'em out and to heck with their attitudes.
Gri-Gri evil, no way... it's the 20 minute tutorial at gyms saying ok you've got it now go climb. it's individuals who don't realize how important and serious the job they're doing is.
an easy fix is to belay with both hands on the brake line. this way your hand never leaves the brake line and is a small snap away from lock.
Bottom line, don't take yur damned hand off the brake.
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diana
Oct 19, 2004, 6:02 PM
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In reply to: The adult in charge looked to be a college kid that majored in 'Granola Grunge', and he was actually belittling the kid
I have a terrible time at the gym when new belayers are there since I get very distracted, watching their brake hands. My gym has reduced rates after 9pm, so that's when all the college kids come and prance around for each other, showing off.
Outside, I'm much more likely to say something to a n00b, since there's no gym employee walking around checking people, and no easy access for the ambulance. :roll: My two "favorite" n00b stories have been posted here before by my partner:
A) 20-ish guy takes his out-of-shape, never-climbed-before parents to the crag and has his dad belay him with a gri-gri... and has to tell the dad how to use it while dangling 45 feet up!
B) Husband and wife n00bs, wifey is belaying, wrongly. Me: "Don't take your brake hand off the rope or you can drop him." Wifey: "Am I doing this right, honey?" Hubby (20 feet above her): "You're doing great, Babe!" Whatever. Time for me to walk away now.
Diana
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crimpandgo
Oct 19, 2004, 6:24 PM
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Happie,
Sorry, I was obviously on a different tangent (new belayer) than you were. Still good info, but just different topic :) For what its worth, I wasn't really disagreeing with your discussion. You had lots good to say. Hopefully my discussion would add on to it :)
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skateman
Oct 19, 2004, 7:09 PM
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Here's my two favorite NooB stories:
While taking a belay test at a gym in NH that uses gri-gris, I was paired up with a complete stranger the just did not get it. Everytime she went to lower me, she would pull the release handle all the way back. First time she did this I fell about ten feet. 2nd, 3rd , etc... I had
suggested to the kid giving the test that he back her up! That gym is doomed!
I admit it! I have free soloed while being roped in. At least it felt that way when my GF, who was new to climbing first started to belay. At first I had someone backing her up. Once she was on her own I recall thinking, Gee I thought I taught her better than that! I think my knees were shaking the whole time she belayed me!
S-man
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feanor007
Oct 20, 2004, 8:59 PM
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In reply to: I have a feeling that this rash of 'bad belayers' we are seeing are gri-gri trained gym climbers. I shudder to think about what their top rope anchor looked like!
amen! i was goning to expound on this comment, then i read the boy scout story, and i forgot every thing. I work at a ropes course and help with the college climbing seminars and our mantra is 'challenge by choice' we want people to grow, not be scared for life. i'm not gonna lie, i walked off a rapell in 6th grade and didn't rapell for along while, but when i was considering walking off i was ENCOURAGED to overcome my fears and to rapell, but it was my CHOICE and i was ostricized or insulted for declining. people like that remind me that true, first class a-holes still exist. why don't they ever take ground falls? actually, i know why, with balls that small the're probaly to scared to even get on anything remotly close to a runout. actually they probaly don't even know what a runout is. I applaud you for your self control, but you should have pushed and purged the gene pool.
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tgreene
Oct 20, 2004, 9:16 PM
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As I mentioned, the "professional assholes" couldn't even TR a 5.6 stairstep w/ a roof, and the roof itself was the 5.6 portion... Hell, the climb they kept falling off of (while I verbally abused them), is barely even considered a warmup! :lol:
All those assholes did, was make damn sure the frightened kids never again get anywhere near a rope! :evil:
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hardcore574
Oct 21, 2004, 1:03 AM
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:shock:
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hardcore574
Oct 21, 2004, 1:06 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: um, isn't that like the first thing you'r taught, never let go with the break hand? Maybe they thought it was supposed to be a break hand, so they thought it was OK to take breaks with it while belaying. If they realized that it is a brake hand, maybe they would have understood how to belay properly. :roll: (P.S. People who can't spell may not be able to follow this.) Huh :?: |
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ctardi
Oct 21, 2004, 1:33 AM
Post #38 of 38
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: um, isn't that like the first thing you'r taught, never let go with the break hand? Maybe they thought it was supposed to be a break hand, so they thought it was OK to take breaks with it while belaying. If they realized that it is a brake hand, maybe they would have understood how to belay properly. :roll: (P.S. People who can't spell may not be able to follow this.) Huh :?: i dont get it either :?
Break - the kind you stop working to do
Brake - Stop
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