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dynosore
Jan 7, 2005, 2:57 PM
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In reply to: Koyamada himself agrees. He said a rating of 5.15a would be more appropriate.
So not only does he crank hard, he also is smart enough to see that 80 moves is a ROUTE, not a PROBLEM. Sounds like a cool guy.
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bobd1953
Jan 7, 2005, 3:07 PM
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In reply to: To each thier own, I guess. It's a kind of "tastes great", "less filling" sort of argument anyway. But, you almost have me convinced. Almost. It does sound a lot cooler to say that I free soloed a 13b/c route than it does to say that I did a V8/9 problem. OK, maybe I'll change my mind..... I'll let you know.
Say what ever you want but "Otis" seems to be more like a rock route than a (as Curt stated) traditional boulder problem.
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keinangst
Jan 7, 2005, 3:52 PM
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In reply to: Curt is correct IMO. Malcom Smith is on the same page as well. He rated that route in England 5.14d instead of giving it a bouldering grade.
If you can watch of video of it, go to the bathroom, make a sandwich, then come back to the computer and the guy is still climbing, I think it's a route.
Malcolm Smith did the right thing, and that route was a beast, just to watch! It's like looking into a cave/overhang and saying "how could I possibly climb this in the hardest way possible?"
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jaybird2
Jan 7, 2005, 4:08 PM
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THREAD = HIJACKED
I was gonna start a new thread but figured that this may have been brought up before:
If people are so passionate about the difference between a problem and a route, please define the two. I admit that I have trouble calling a butt-dragging morrison problem/route a route, but I can see how it would be a route if the pucker factor was created by increasing the air under me by 15 feet. So then I guess I am admitting that in the purity of the rock, it is a route. But then again, I would feel that way if a 4 move route was 15 feet off of the ground. What are the explicit differences guys? What makes one, one, and not the other?
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bubbahotep
Jan 7, 2005, 6:50 PM
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[quote="bobd1953"]In reply to: Say what ever you want but "Otis" seems to be more like a rock route than a (as Curt stated) traditional boulder problem.
Actually, I was throwing out a little bait here. I don't consider Otis to be a boulder problem any more than I consider it a route. It is simply a link-up of sections of several different "real" boulder problems. It's PDH though.
Heck, I'm just arguing this for arguments sake. Nobody (myself included) has defined when a boulder problem becomes a route due to length. Is it 20 moves? 30? 25 feet? Or, is it just a whim of whoever is discussing it?
Gill did the Torture Chamber, a long endurance route, back when we were all still in grade school or thereabout. I doubt that he considered it a route when he did it - maybe he should chime in about what the "traditional sense" really is?
Now, it's shaping up to be a pretty nice day here - maybe I will go to Morrison......
Peace.
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oldskool
Jan 7, 2005, 7:01 PM
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hey i have thoughts that i think count too!!!
its a big blur! think quantum physics; we now know in terms of modern science that things do not have definite borders, things are not 'this' or 'that', things are not black or white. for that kind of thinking, see W Bush please, and set your brain on the counter, its not needed. do you believe that the universe is composed of stringently defined and bordered 'things'? well i have news for you. Its called the Figure Ground Relationship, and no Figure can exist w/out a Ground or background; ie, nothing exists unto itself. QUE mystical music: We're all connected!! wwooooooo!!! haha! but seriously we need the blur...some people bolt stuff at, say, Jew Nack City that i would just high ball, and some people highball what Curt would bolt. it is so simple. those who feel the need to say "that is not a route, its a bolder problem!!" or "that is not a bolder problem, that is a route!!" have authority issues, and need to relax. bye now -yo mama
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curt
Jan 7, 2005, 7:40 PM
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In reply to: Gill did the Torture Chamber, a long endurance route, back when we were all still in grade school or thereabout. I doubt that he considered it a route when he did it - maybe he should chime in about what the "traditional sense" really is?
Well, keep in mind that Gill's Torture Chamber boulder problem is a specific set of moves across a relatively short section of that long traverse. Sometimes, however, the entire traverse is mistakenly called the Torture Chamber problem.
Curt
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bonin_in_the_boneyard
Jan 7, 2005, 8:57 PM
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In reply to: hey i have thoughts that i think count too!!! its a big blur! think quantum physics; we now know in terms of modern science that things do not have definite borders, things are not 'this' or 'that', things are not black or white. for that kind of thinking, see W Bush please, and set your brain on the counter, its not needed. do you believe that the universe is composed of stringently defined and bordered 'things'? well i have news for you. Its called the Figure Ground Relationship, and no Figure can exist w/out a Ground or background; ie, nothing exists unto itself. QUE mystical music: We're all connected!! wwooooooo!!! haha! but seriously we need the blur...some people bolt stuff at, say, Jew Nack City that i would just high ball, and some people highball what Curt would bolt. it is so simple. those who feel the need to say "that is not a route, its a bolder problem!!" or "that is not a bolder problem, that is a route!!" have authority issues, and need to relax. bye now -yo mama
Holy $heep-$hit, dude! Do you have any of that stuff left? Reality is kind of kicking my ass right now... :shock:
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denmarkbob
Jan 7, 2005, 11:15 PM
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i'd say if you dont rope up or get into the X zone its a boulder problem. it may be a traverse or lots of moves but still a boulder problem...if sex lasts a long time is it no longer sex? :oops:
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offwidthclimber
Jan 7, 2005, 11:38 PM
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i would say that... you are mainly a bunch of fukking retards for debating something so stupid.
please unplug your internet connection and use it to strangle yourself.
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fracture
Jan 8, 2005, 12:58 AM
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In reply to: To answer my own question, they were created specifically because YDS ratings for boulder problems are nonsensical, and vice versa.
But why do you think it is "nonsensical"?
In reply to: They are not in any way interchangeable or equivalent, except under very well defined conditions. These conditions exist where a route is a "one move wonder" or where a boulder problem is 135 feet long. In those cases, the route may be better rated with a "V" number, and the boulder problem may be better rated with a "YDS" number.
Those sorts of comparisons make just as much sense as any comparison between climbs (and the sense made by that is admittedly dubious and very subjective).
One 5.12 may have a one move crux, another may have a 10 move crux, still another may have two small cruxes with a good rest between them, or another may have no rests and no moves which are individually even moderately hard at all. Some are 35 meters long, and others have only 2 bolts and are 15 feet tall.
If comparing all of these as "5.12" makes any sense, then so does comparing them to a 4 move boulder problem (or a 60-move boulder problem, for that matter).
In reply to: By the way, if you know John Sherman very well, and have discussed these things with him--you are well aware that he regrets using the "V" scale to rate that particular problem in the gymnasium at Hueco, as well as other long endurance based problems there.
You could also quote the inventors of the YDS to try to claim that it should only rate based on the hardest move---but that wouldn't make it any more true.
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fracture
Jan 8, 2005, 12:59 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Whatever number you want to give it (give it a "B3" if it gives you a warm and fuzzy oldschool feeling), Wheel of Life is one of the hardest climbs in the world. Seems like you solve the issue. You call it a climb and maybe it should be rated as one 5.15a/b???
I, for one, consider boulder problems "climbs".
In reply to: I'll stick with the B-rating system. Works fine for years.
If by "works fine" you mean "completely fails to do anything one would expect a rating system to do", then yes. ;)
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cgranite
Jan 8, 2005, 1:13 AM
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I don't look at this thread as an argument or debate as much as just a fun conversation. It's somewhat entertaining, I think. I use to shake my head at topics like this too, but it's good fun. The problem threads on this site are the ones giving bad information to beginners, and pissing matches.
If a boulder problem is so high that it's R/X, It's most likely a route.
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bubbahotep
Jan 8, 2005, 1:32 AM
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In reply to: i would say that... you are mainly a bunch of fukking retards for debating something so stupid. please unplug your internet connection and use it to strangle yourself.
Great input to the thread, Offwidthclimber. Here's a few more of your sterling contributions to the site:
In reply to: wow, this site has just achieved a new level of retardedness...
In reply to: the place gets more retarded every day...
In reply to: recommending someone move to twin falls or pocatello is just plain mean. both those places are worthless crapholes.
In reply to: people that take this site seriously are funny. by funny, i mean sad.
In reply to: jesus... the questions that pop up here. brain dead much?
In reply to: i suggest that you beat yourself senseless for asking such a retarded question.
In reply to: you are idiots.
In reply to: heavy drinking, masterbation, other pursuits, etc...
In reply to: you guys are fukking dorks. please go back to reviewing belay devices.
In reply to: hmm... to avoid photo bombing, one should: a. not be a stupid fukk to avoid people screwing with you out of spite b. not take stupid photos that is all
Now would you please take your own advice and:
In reply to: unplug your internet connection and use it to strangle yourself.
:shock:
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curt
Jan 8, 2005, 2:13 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Whatever number you want to give it (give it a "B3" if it gives you a warm and fuzzy oldschool feeling), Wheel of Life is one of the hardest climbs in the world. Seems like you solve the issue. You call it a climb and maybe it should be rated as one 5.15a/b??? I, for one, consider boulder problems "climbs". In reply to: I'll stick with the B-rating system. Works fine for years. If by "works fine" you mean "completely fails to do anything one would expect a rating system to do", then yes. ;)
Right. In other words, it doesn't provide big enough numbers for you to spray with. B1 and B2 work perfectly well enough--unless your ego is hopelessly tied to the numbers you boulder.
Curt
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jgill
Jan 8, 2005, 4:55 AM
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My old Torture Chamber Traverse was - as Curt has correctly described it - a specific sequence of moves, avoiding obvious holds to make it more demanding. I enjoyed playing on it after finishing a bouldering day. It was 1967 and I had recently more or less retired from artistic gymnastics, so I thought of the TCT more as a bouldering routine, not as a route or problem. After I moved from Ft. Collins, other climbers started doing the longer, technically easier traverse in which the TCT is artificially embedded. They referred to the longer traverse as the Torture Chamber. 8^)
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lockeyaaron
Jan 8, 2005, 5:54 AM
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It seems Mr. Gill has silenced all you blathering idiots out there. Curt you are excluded from the above mentioned group. One bc you are the only one that has actaully made any sense in these whole thread. Two bc you have the best signature on this site. Mr. Gill, thank you for silencing this group. Even if your post didnt answer the question of V vs. YDS I think everyone was stunned to see you post and no one wanted to follow that.
Doobie
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oldskool
Jan 8, 2005, 6:04 AM
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i will however follow you up. you are a little more cognitively aware than a napkin. and my butt is chafing from you
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curt
Jan 8, 2005, 6:11 AM
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In reply to: i will however follow you up. you are a little more cognitively aware than a napkin. and my butt is chafing from you
Hmmm. Let's see here what you are really trying to say here. He is a napkin, and your butt is chafed from applying the napkin (him) to your butt. Perhaps then, if you didn't take guys in the butt, you would not be chafed?
Curt
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bobd1953
Jan 8, 2005, 6:12 AM
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In reply to: If by "works fine" you mean "completely fails to do anything one would expect a rating system to do", then yes.
Please explain.
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offwidthclimber
Jan 8, 2005, 7:25 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: i would say that... you are mainly a bunch of fukking retards for debating something so stupid. please unplug your internet connection and use it to strangle yourself. Great input to the thread, Offwidthclimber. Here's a few more of your sterling contributions to the site: In reply to: wow, this site has just achieved a new level of retardedness... In reply to: the place gets more retarded every day... In reply to: recommending someone move to twin falls or pocatello is just plain mean. both those places are worthless crapholes. In reply to: people that take this site seriously are funny. by funny, i mean sad. In reply to: jesus... the questions that pop up here. brain dead much? In reply to: i suggest that you beat yourself senseless for asking such a retarded question. In reply to: you are idiots. In reply to: heavy drinking, masterbation, other pursuits, etc... In reply to: you guys are fukking dorks. please go back to reviewing belay devices. In reply to: hmm... to avoid photo bombing, one should: a. not be a stupid fukk to avoid people screwing with you out of spite b. not take stupid photos that is all Now would you please take your own advice and: In reply to: unplug your internet connection and use it to strangle yourself. :shock:
there's no such thing as a 'sterling' remark in a thread as stupid as this.
i know exactly what i've written on this site, dipshhit. thanks for the recap. all those comments were directed towards total fukking morons such as youself.
by the way, your amateur-hour investigative sherlock holmes internet stalker bit is both lame and a bit creepy...
who the fukk looks up, and quotes, nearly everything someone has posted in recent memory - in a worthless attempt to make a sad point in a stupid thread on a stupid forum?
go fist yourself.
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curt
Jan 8, 2005, 7:50 AM
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Hey OWC,
Don't you live in the Phoenix area now? Let's go bouldering one of these days.
Curt
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offwidthclimber
Jan 8, 2005, 1:43 PM
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Curt,
Yes, let's go boldering some time.
I'm best reached by PM at that 'other' climbing forum.
Cheers,
Micah
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bubbahotep
Jan 9, 2005, 4:38 AM
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In reply to: go fist yourself.
That's pretty special also.
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junkie
Jan 9, 2005, 10:43 PM
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Miuralvr...
Julien Nadiras scored the 2nd of Tonino '78.
He felt it was probably the correct grade.
So, from the original question, it seems likely that Tonino '78 is the hardest classically defined boulder problem.
K
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