|
jt512
Jan 28, 2005, 5:53 PM
Post #26 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: In reply to: the routes at tsunami are equipped with chaines and biners If you have chains at the top, why do you need carabiners?
To avoid lowering off the chains, which wears them out. Instead you lower off biners, which can be easily replaced when they wear out.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jan 28, 2005, 5:58 PM
Post #27 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Also, the serenity of untouched nature looks sucky when douched with chalk marks. Give the second climber something to think about!
For heaven's sakes, the walls that the OP was referring to are heavily trafficked sport walls. They are continuously chalk covered, which, frankly, is the way most sport climbers prefer it. :shock:
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
flamer
Jan 28, 2005, 6:12 PM
Post #28 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955
|
In reply to: To avoid lowering off the chains, which wears them out. Instead you lower off biners, which can be easily replaced when they wear out.
That's why you put quick links on the bottom of the chain.
Actually the best thing for you sporto's to learn is that it's better to rappel off the chains. Rappelling almost eliminate's the wear factor. In fact I would argue that anyone who lower's off chains instead off rapping is more selfish then someone "stealing"(BS you shouldn't leave them) leaver biner's. Why??? because it wears out the chains!!
josh
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Jan 28, 2005, 6:32 PM
Post #29 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
In reply to: In reply to: To avoid lowering off the chains, which wears them out. Instead you lower off biners, which can be easily replaced when they wear out. That's why you put quick links on the bottom of the chain. Actually the best thing for you sporto's to learn is that it's better to rappel off the chains. Rappelling almost eliminate's the wear factor. In fact I would argue that anyone who lower's off chains instead off rapping is more selfish then someone "stealing"(BS you shouldn't leave them) leaver biner's. Why??? because it wears out the chains!! josh
Or, you could accept the fact that trad 'rules' don't apply across the board. You seem to have identified the fact that trad and sport are a little different. Good for you. Now, doesn't it stand to reason that things don't have to be done the same in both? Some sport practices are different for a reason, and you're attempting to dredge up an issue that's been decided.
But, if you want to rap sport climbs, feel free.
|
|
|
|
|
tarzan420
Jan 28, 2005, 7:18 PM
Post #30 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 678
|
In reply to: Those biners (which are better called lower-off biners than leaver biners) were left for the convenience of all climbers. They were not booty, as true leaver biners (which are used to bail midroute) are. -Jay
jay hit the nail on the head with this one. Just a question of semantics, really.
While I wouldn't take a lower-off biner (ie a biner on the anchor with a huge groove in if from thousands of folks lowering off it), I would take a leaver biner, which someone used to bail mid-route. That way I loose less biners when I bail mid-route.
|
|
|
|
|
bandycoot
Jan 28, 2005, 7:28 PM
Post #31 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 25, 2002
Posts: 2028
|
I guess that I've just never climbed anywhere that carabiners and chains were standard. Interesting..... If that's how they do it there, cool! Sounds easy to use!
Edit: Flamer, in this case think of the carabiners as quicklinks that weren't tightened down. Should someone still steal them? Is there that big a difference between a quicklink and a carabiner if place there for the same purpose?
|
|
|
|
|
cchildre
Jan 28, 2005, 7:35 PM
Post #32 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 5, 2004
Posts: 671
|
I come from a caving background. I have spent countless hours scrubbing boot scuffs and mud off of walls and formations in caves. So I try to use as little chalk as possible, in fact I really only use heavily brokedown limestone that we find at the base of our local crag. Never leaves a mark on the rock. I do climb with some chalkaholics that powder up every route they touch just because they use so much chalk. If our crag saw more traffic, I climbed two days last weekend and did not see a soul, then it might be an issue but things stay pretty clean. Sucks to hear about Red Rocks, we need to be more vigilant and report infractions to the authorites. A few tickets could spread word that we are not going to sit by and let this sort of thing to pass without a penalty. "Be careful up there the rangers are ticket happy and will write you up for almost anything", that could scare some straight. It worked on Napster! Convict a few grandmas and some partents and half that crowd ran scared.
|
|
|
|
|
quiteatingmysteak
Jan 28, 2005, 8:13 PM
Post #33 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 15, 2004
Posts: 804
|
In reply to: I do climb with some chalkaholics that powder up every route they touch just because they use so much chalk
Totally true. When you use a chalkball, you are forced to use less chalk and the physical act of squeezing makes you only use it when you need it. It becomes easy to see how it can sometimes become a placebo that people use to boost confidence. Of course it is really useful, I dont doubt that. But if you are going to climb routes at Jtree or somewhere beautiful dont splatter the whole thing with gunk.
As for bail biners, people that take a single bail biner off of a rap station is risking the fact that it could have a load of microfractures in it and left there because, out of the deserters whole rack, that biner was chosen as the easiest to leave. So let 'em take them, they will learn when it snaps :twisted:
|
|
|
|
|
flamer
Jan 28, 2005, 8:16 PM
Post #34 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955
|
In reply to: I guess that I've just never climbed anywhere that carabiners and chains were standard. Interesting..... If that's how they do it there, cool! Sounds easy to use! Edit: Flamer, in this case think of the carabiners as quicklinks that weren't tightened down. Should someone still steal them? Is there that big a difference between a quicklink and a carabiner if place there for the same purpose?
While I understand this, I disagree.
The difference between Quick links and carabiners is simple...#1 they are cheaper #2 It the case stated above people aren't leaving shiny new Crabs for someone others to use, they are leaving crabs that they themselves are worried about!! Now you tell me what's safer??
SPORT CLIMBERS ARE LAZY!! The sport areas I climb at don't leave crabs.(it's just LAZY and stupid)...if more people learned to thread the rope pull it through, then rap there would be virtually NO wear on the chains/ Quick links.
If I find biners(and I'm not feeling lazy :wink:)They're mine.
josh
|
|
|
|
|
benpullin
Jan 28, 2005, 8:36 PM
Post #35 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 14, 2003
Posts: 360
|
In reply to: The sport areas I climb at don't leave crabs.(it's just LAZY and stupid)...if more people learned to thread the rope pull it through, then rap there would be virtually NO wear on the chains/ Quick links. If I find biners(and I'm not feeling lazy :wink:)They're mine.
You obviously don't climb at any areas with hard routes, then. Or should I say places where people are more interested in climbing than scavenging old gear. Try cleaning a super-steep route on rappel...
Do you make trips to booty ropes from El Cap? After all, these are "left" ropes, right? Do you clean rap rings from multipitch routes? What about webbing?
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Jan 28, 2005, 8:44 PM
Post #36 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
Josh, let me see if I've got this straight.
A climber fixes biners to an anchor for the convenience and safety of other climbers, including yourself.
You feel entitled to take these biners because that climber and others are lazy, and you want the biners. You want to enforce your view of how anchors and climbing should be on others, because you're right. However, you won't take quicklinks in the same position, because they are $2 cheaper.
Does the notion that you're making climbing better/keeping climbing 'pure' totally drown out any sense that you are stealing from the climbing community?
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jan 28, 2005, 8:59 PM
Post #37 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: In reply to: To avoid lowering off the chains, which wears them out. Instead you lower off biners, which can be easily replaced when they wear out. That's why you put quick links on the bottom of the chain.
That's basically correct. We put quick links on the chains because thieves, such as yourself, would steal the carabiners.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jan 28, 2005, 9:00 PM
Post #38 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: In reply to: To avoid lowering off the chains, which wears them out. Instead you lower off biners, which can be easily replaced when they wear out. That's why you put quick links on the bottom of the chain.
That's basically correct. We put quick links on the chains because thieves, such as yourself, would steal the carabiners.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
climbsomething
Jan 28, 2005, 9:09 PM
Post #39 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 30, 2002
Posts: 8588
|
In reply to: I lurved how reno was called selfish/noob. Hee. Damn you and your paramedic work! Leaver biners? Doesn't the name imply that you've "left" them?
Secondly, Aimee cranks harder than ANYbody weighing in on this thread with their tired trad/sport ethics buzzphrases, with the possible exception of Jay and Ben (on good days, sorry fellas ;) ). Might I also add that Jay and Ben are also very well-rounded and solid trad and/or wall climbers. Now go ahead and meow about how, because she's strong, or because they are well-rounded, doesn't give them a right to blah blah blah. But they DO have a real background in what goes on in multiple facets of the sport, namely, at sport crags where people climb hard- like it or not, and like sport climbing or not. I'm guessing a lot of you will take the "or not." But whatever. Just kwitcherb!tchin.
Aimee, have you seen the lower-off anchors at Fruit Bowl at the Pit? They're regular biners at the ends of chains (or on shuts or bolts, don't remember) but are locked down with hose clamps. (n00bs, it's not sketchy, trust me) The biners are easy to replace, but only by somebody who's actually going to the trouble of doing the public service. You can't booty them unless you just happen to climb with the right tools for snipping hose clamps. And not even the most prussik and multi-belay device lovin'est traddy I know does that ;)
|
|
|
|
|
ikefromla
Jan 28, 2005, 9:15 PM
Post #40 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 1216
|
In reply to: people aren't leaving shiny new Crabs for someone others to use, they are leaving crabs that they themselves are worried about!! Now you tell me what's safer?? SPORT CLIMBERS ARE LAZY!! The sport areas I climb at don't leave crabs.(it's just LAZY and stupid) If I find biners(and I'm not feeling lazy :wink:)They're mine.
just you try comin to my home crags. There is NO wear on the CHAINS with the use of lowering biners, BY THE WAY. that is the point. it is easier to clip the biners on the bottom of the chain, and lower. when the biners get worn, we (ie the locals) replace them. i have replaced my fair share at Red Rocks and Mt Charleston, NV and Malibu Creek, CA.
Also, i do not see how you can call someone who will pour his heart and soul into a route that pushes his bodies absolute physical limits either "lazy" or "stupid." We maintain our crags, donate equipment to make them safer and better for everyone, and work our asses off training for routes that push us. please try to see from this perspective next time you decide to insult us simply for sport climbing and not being the uber hard tradster that i'm SUUURE you are.
now STFU n00b!
|
|
|
|
|
ikefromla
Jan 28, 2005, 9:17 PM
Post #41 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 1216
|
In reply to: Aimee cranks harder than ANYbody weighing in on this thread with their tired trad/sport ethics buzzphrases, with the possible exception of Jay and Ben (on good days, sorry fellas ;) ).
and me :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
benpullin
Jan 28, 2005, 9:20 PM
Post #42 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 14, 2003
Posts: 360
|
Issac, I'm sure you crank waaayyyy harder than both Jay or myself. Even on a bad day...
|
|
|
|
|
aimeerose
Jan 28, 2005, 11:17 PM
Post #43 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 574
|
In reply to: First you bitch about unsightly stuff at a crag, then you leave unsightly stuff at the crag.
Um, the anchors aren't even visable from the ground. And if they were, I'm not sure why biners at the end of chains are any more unsightly than the chains themselves. If you hadn't been so quick to try and flame me maybe you would have noticed that I said there are leaver biners at the top of all the climbs at this crag. Only the ones we put up there were taken because they were nicer that the hardware store biners on the other routes. And anyways there's a huge difference between biners and big ugly tick marks and pseudo "rock art" that will never come off. I wasn't trying to bitch about it, I was just trying to make people more aware so we don't end up with another Hueco situation.
|
|
|
|
|
aimeerose
Jan 28, 2005, 11:26 PM
Post #44 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 574
|
In reply to: Actually the best thing for you sporto's to learn is that it's better to rappel off the chains. Rappelling almost eliminate's the wear factor. In fact I would argue that anyone who lower's off chains instead off rapping is more selfish then someone "stealing"(BS you shouldn't leave them) leaver biner's. Why??? because it wears out the chains!!
Well, I argue that it's more selfish to rappel off, forget to thread one side of your rope, deck, and require a costly helicopter rescue as well as life-saving assistance from other climbers. This happens all the time from experienced climbers rappelling instead of lowering off. It's WAY more dangerous.
And thanks, climbsomething, for the props. I've just been climbing a long time. :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
flamer
Jan 29, 2005, 12:11 AM
Post #45 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955
|
Deleted- because this was a stupid post that I put up while I was in a hurry and didn't allow myself time to think.
josh
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Jan 29, 2005, 12:13 AM
Post #46 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
In reply to: In reply to: now STFU n00b! You're right having climbed the better part of 10 years....onsighting .12a sport....and i've NEVER worked a route....onsighting 5.10+ trad....having climbed 10 walls...most IAD...holding speed records for both solo's and team ascent's....in the mountains as well as at the crag...defiantly a noob. you guys keep pushing your bodies, wow sometimes I forget just how touchy you sporto's are....but I never forget how lazy!!! Maybe next month I'll make apoint to clean up all the crabs on sport route's....just to piss you guys off. josh
Thanks for leaving us with no doubt how cool you are Josh. 8^)
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Jan 29, 2005, 12:18 AM
Post #47 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
nice to know that rc.com can still turn a discussion about the cleanliness of a crag into a pissing match about who can climb harder than who.... :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
aimeerose
Jan 29, 2005, 12:29 AM
Post #48 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 574
|
Boy, how stupid does Josh look now? Ever heard of something called modesty, Josh? Truth is, noone cares what you've climbed or how fast if you act like a jerk.
|
|
|
|
|
chitlinsconcarne
Jan 29, 2005, 12:36 AM
Post #49 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 199
|
It doesn't need to be a big fight about the biners. aimeerose has the right idea, just not the right execution.
First off, a leaver biner is not by nature a permanent part of an anchor. By definition, a leaver biner is abandoned equipment, left behind by a climber that could not complete the route and was unwilling or unable to quit the route without leaving gear behind to bail from.
In fact, there are a number of specialized pieces of equipment that are designed attach to chains and serve as a permanent (or, more permanent) part of the anchor. I am sure that these options have been discussed here ad nauseam, so a little searching will turn up better options than the old, dropped biners that were taken.
Second, there is no reason to be lowering through the chains, or any other piece of gear for that matter, at the tsunami. If your going to work routes there, TR through your own gear and take it with you when you go-that way you won't have to be disappointed when someone removes the improper piece of unsecured equipment that you abandoned at the top of the route in the mistaken belief that you were adding permanent fixtures to the anchor.
Sport routes need maintenance. We all use them and most of the time we're climbing them for free. If one thinks that an anchor needs some maintenance, then the best way to deal with these situations is to reach a little ways into the pocketbook and install the proper gear rather than hang busted stuff that you don't want on the chains and get upset when its not there the next day.
|
|
|
|
|
slhappy
Jan 29, 2005, 12:38 AM
Post #50 of 70
(8012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2002
Posts: 207
|
:D :) :( :o :lol: 8^) :? :shock: :x :P :oops: :cry: :wink: :roll: :twisted: :evil:
|
|
|
|
|
|
