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ter_bee
Mar 15, 2006, 6:23 PM
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'dog owners in general' is colloquial for what? i'm guessing this vague phrase was chosen because you don't know how frequently dog owners behave the way you describe. neither do i, but i'm sure you know that certainly not all do. and consider that if no people with regular day jobs had dogs (because it was cruel to keep these non-natural animals indoors or in a yard or in a cage) then lots of dogs would be euthanized.
so dogs don't belong in apartment buildings because it's unfair to the dog. dogs don't belong in nature because it's bad for nature (how?). where do you think dogs should be, exactly?
a lovely evasion on the dog-hater question. and thanks for the lecture on human priority over animals. i feel somehow that this is at the crux of most of this thread. and without your having said it, i should now assume you DON'T hate dogs. pass. so how do you feel about babies? shall i start bringing one to the crag?
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roklizard
Mar 15, 2006, 6:59 PM
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WEAK! Any outdoorsmen who doesn't like or have tolerence for a dog off his leash having a good time outside is just weak. To the other guy who said people are distracted by there dog, weak. You guys belong in the rock gym and not in the great outdoors. If someone came telling me or touching my dog there gonna meet one mean dog owner off his leash! Maybe you guys should take up golf
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werd7
Mar 15, 2006, 7:59 PM
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This thread just infuriates and confuses me. I have been bringing my dog to crags for the past 3 years and have never had a problem. Usually, at least one person falls in love with him every time I take him out. Also, it is a rare experience that I have a problem with someone else's dog. Before reading rockclimbing.com, I never knew that dogs at crags was a serious problem because climbers seem to love nature and dogs. That leads me to believe that there is some disconnect between outdoor climbers and climbers who troll the internet all day. In my real-life experience, climbers are some of the nicest, kindest people I've ever met. Two months ago, I was in Red Rocks and there were about 8 dogs running around without their leashes having a great time. When people weren't climbing, they were petting the dogs and watching them play. It was a great day and the dogs were a big ingredient to the overall atmosphere. If you are so serious about your climbing that you don't enjoy all aspects of nature, you need a new outlook on life.
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sidepull
Mar 15, 2006, 8:38 PM
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In reply to: I work as a Backcountry Ranger for BC Parks and when in comes to enforcement issues, the hardest and most frustrating aspect of my job is enforcing the laws we have regarding park visitors and their dogs. Seriously, I would rather deal with a dozen drunken bush parties before I’d want to deal with one asshole local and their un leashed dog. Over the years, I’ve dealt with timber poachers, wildlife poachers, suicides, drowning, vandals, thieves; I’ve evicted dug addicted squatters, and evicted about a thousand drunks. But the hardest, and I’m talking the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do in my job was telling someone to put their dog on its leash. For me the issue is like this. For the dog owner, their dog is their child and they’re the parent. For me, or anyone to come up and tell them what they can and can not do with their dog is akin me telling them that they’re raising their children wrong and that I have the answer as to how they should be raising them. Personally, I believe that problems arise when climber numbers reach a critical mass where not having rules regarding dogs no longer becomes a viable option. In many climbing areas, having your dog on a leash is mandatory, and in others, dogs have been banned. Climbers have to take responsibly their dogs. If they don’t, their actions will be held accountable in the form of fines, evictions, or the banning of dogs from their favorite crag.
since I don't have trophy power today I'll just say "thank you" and quote your post so that others might read it in the vain hope that some irrational dog owners might realize how ridiculous they are.
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neuroshock
Mar 15, 2006, 9:09 PM
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just wanted to make a few comments
first off, i don't generally have problems with dogs in day-to-day life. i even enjoy watching the antics of most of them.
last night i was walking to my car from the gym and a woman was walking her dog (about half her size) outside of the house next door. the dog started aggressively barking and tried to charge me--and would've been successful if it hadn't been on leash. it nearly pulled the woman along with! her response was, "i'm sorry, he's never been like this." then, addressing her dog, "what's gotten into you?"
:roll: right. so this woman's opinion of "he's never been like this" is similar to many other owners. we're human, they're not. we can't understand ALL the possible triggers for behavior. if your dog is off leash, can you GUARANTEE that they'll behave?
i have a friend who has a dog that is generally well behaved and promptly responds to commands. "come." "no." etc. at a crag a few years ago, while he was on lead, his dog was just walking around, sniffing, etc...and then pisses on some other party's gear. it was a first. of course, he started yelling commands while on lead, got to the next piece, lowered, and managed his dog. however, the damage was done.
there's always a first time
i've been annoyed by friendly, well meaning, generally well behaved dogs while climbing. when i'm belaying a leader, i'd much rather not have to deal with your dog standing on or getting tangled in the lead rope or jumping up on me asking to play as i lead belay.
i don't generally mind dogs, but there's an appropriate time and place for everything. if they're there, have them on a long leash that keeps them out of the way! they don't know any better...it's not their fault, it's the owner's. it's particularly bad when the owner won't do anything about it when asked to.
lastly, but most importantly, for all you assholes that think that the rules don't apply to you, when a crag on private land has a "no dogs" or "mandatory leash" rule, get with the program! access to private lands are a privilege, not a right!
i've see way too many people who let their dogs off leash, or don't even bother bringing a leash, at an access-tenuous crag with a mandatory leash rule just because there aren't many/any other observable people around at arrival or that the other climbers are cool with it. it doesn't matter; the landowner isn't cool with it and the moment the landowner unexpectedly shows up, you've damaged relations on behalf of all of us. they don't have to give us warnings, they can just shut access down without notice.
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jred
Mar 15, 2006, 9:22 PM
Post #57 of 172
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In reply to: WEAK! Any outdoorsmen who doesn't like or have tolerence for a dog off his leash having a good time outside is just weak. To the other guy who said people are distracted by there dog, weak. You guys belong in the rock gym and not in the great outdoors. If someone came telling me or touching my dog there gonna meet one mean dog owner off his leash! Maybe you guys should take up golf |
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snodawg
Mar 15, 2006, 9:29 PM
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Damn, I told myself I wasn't going to post in this thread but I have to. My dawg is my son and I would NEVER leave him home. He likes going to the crag as much as I do and would be pissed if I quit taking him. He is never on a leash, in total voice control (the first time I say something). On the other hand, people at the crag...well never mind. Caine is a 140 lb Rotty and when you see him at the crag come say high, because more than anything he hates it when people are scared of him.
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jred
Mar 15, 2006, 9:44 PM
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In reply to: This thread just infuriates and confuses me. I have been bringing my dog to crags for the past 3 years and have never had a problem. Usually, at least one person falls in love with him every time I take him out. Also, it is a rare experience that I have a problem with someone else's dog. Before reading rockclimbing.com, I never knew that dogs at crags was a serious problem because climbers seem to love nature and dogs. That leads me to believe that there is some disconnect between outdoor climbers and climbers who troll the internet all day. In my real-life experience, climbers are some of the nicest, kindest people I've ever met. Two months ago, I was in Red Rocks and there were about 8 dogs running around without their leashes having a great time. When people weren't climbing, they were petting the dogs and watching them play. It was a great day and the dogs were a big ingredient to the overall atmosphere. If you are so serious about your climbing that you don't enjoy all aspects of nature, you need a new outlook on life. |
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bastien
Mar 15, 2006, 9:50 PM
Post #60 of 172
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In reply to: Caine is a 140 lb Rotty and when you see him at the crag come say high, because more than anything he hates it when people are scared of him.
I raised German Rotties with my parents for 18 years, and even I wouldn't be stupid enough to say 'hi!', at least without a thorough introduction.
OK, I've been around dogs all of my life, and I understand the bond people can have with their animals, to the point of exclusion of human contact in some cases. This is also notable in horse owners, but I digress.
It seems that there are certainly cases where dogs are a bad idea (high traffic areas, mostly) and others where ones furry buddy can chase squirrels or other dogs with reckless abandon. I think a healthy dose of reality from both sides might be in order. To say 'Dogs don't belong at the crag' is just as wrong as saying, 'I'm bringing my dog no matter what.' I think proper judgement by both parties will serve us better in the long run.
Of course, this could be said about most of the worlds arguments.
My 2p.
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roklizard
Mar 15, 2006, 10:15 PM
Post #61 of 172
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uumm yeah i'm not just a climber I'm a dirtbiker, fisherman, offroader, camper, CLIMBER, and desert partier. So I quess I am an outdoorsman
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werd7
Mar 15, 2006, 10:15 PM
Post #62 of 172
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werd7 wrote In reply to: There is some disconnect between outdoor climbers and climbers who troll the internet all day. In my real-life experience, climbers are some of the nicest, kindest people I've ever met.
jred wrote In reply to: You are an inconsiderate idiot
Thank you for proving my point. Maybe the reason nobody has never had an issue with my dog is because I am a considerate, respectful person. Your assumptions that I don't clean my dog's crap, my dog constantly barks at the crag, and pisses/steps on rope couldn't be farther from the truth. One day I hope you get a great dog that you fall in love with. Also, one day I hope you find a more constructive outlet for your anger than calling strangers names on the internet.
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el_jerko
Mar 15, 2006, 10:26 PM
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Tee Bee
What I meant by ‘dog owners in general’ is the ‘average’ dog owner. By ‘average’ I mean the ‘majority.’ That is to say most, but certainly not all, dog owners suck and that the dog they own and the public at large would be much better off if they instead had a cat. Not that they would take any better care of a cat, but who cares.
No, dogs certainly do not belong in apartments or houses. And no, they should not be running loose in natural places. Yards, parks, farms, pick-ups etc. are where they belong. In some circumstances taking a dog to the crag is fine, but generally speaking I personally feel it is a bad idea. Again, it is not because I hate dogs. If I had a proper place for a dog I would have one right now but I don’t. So instead of locking a dog in a crate and then turning it loose at the crag one day a week I have decided that it would be best if I just don’t have one. Same goes for babies, I am not currently in a position to properly raise a baby so I don’t have one. I would love to have children, but it just isn’t a good idea at this point in my life. Some might call this being ‘responsible,’ while others would brand me as being a dog and baby hater.
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jred
Mar 15, 2006, 10:40 PM
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In reply to: werd7 wrote In reply to: There is some disconnect between outdoor climbers and climbers who troll the internet all day. In my real-life experience, climbers are some of the nicest, kindest people I've ever met. jred wrote In reply to: You are an inconsiderate idiot Thank you for proving my point. Maybe the reason nobody has never had an issue with my dog is because I am a considerate, respectful person. Your assumptions that I don't clean my dog's crap, my dog constantly barks at the crag, and pisses/steps on rope couldn't be farther from the truth. One day I hope you get a great dog that you fall in love with. Also, one day I hope you find a more constructive outlet for your anger than calling strangers names on the internet.
Guess what? I do have a wonderful dog who I adore greatly, he comes to the crag with me on occasion if it is appropriate and allowed. He is a very intelligent dog and is very friendly and well behaved. I do not consider it my right to bring him everywhere and sitting at the base of a climb is not the best exercise anyway, he gets his exercise on long walks, swims and games of fetch.
You failed to mention anything about your dogs effect on wildlife and the environment, is there a reason for this?
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ter_bee
Mar 15, 2006, 10:49 PM
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hm. i guess i think that people who actually like dogs might be a little more tolerant of them. (please don't repeat all the very good reasons why you aren't tolerant. i think i have them memorized.) after all, most dogs only want to please humans. in most cases (maybe even including scary excitable giant mastiffs) i would rather have them at the crag than not, in spite of the inconvenience they sometimes create.
so i (and maybe the other people who like dogs) think: why can't YOU be more compassionate, and see the fun little guy behind all the slobber? he's here to have fun, just like you. and of course precautions need to be taken and sh1t needs to be squirreled away and yadda yadda, but if you liked dogs you wouldn't mind so much.
so if i decided you (jerko?) were a dog-hater (hilarious term, frankly), that's why. oh, wait. that was everybody else. i decided you were a dog-hater because you made sweeping generalizations about dog owners. i never make sweeping generalizations about people who own animals i like. ;-)
i think we all have trouble seeing ourselves clearly and understanding that people are different. i know i do. so the dog owners all think their dogs are lovely and well-behaved and that flamers here are tight-a$$ed jerks with no souls, and the flamers (dog-haters?) see uncontrolled animals at the crag (and react a bit more vehemently than i did) and irresponsible owners who create dangerous situations. things are obviously not that black and white. it's just easier to see each other this way, especially since people here rarely meet.
shrug.
btw, i love dogs but i don't own any. and in spite of all you folks who took this thread as an opportunity to shout about it (you're welcome for the opportunity) i'd love to go meet j_ung and his pup at the crag one day.
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sidepull
Mar 16, 2006, 1:03 AM
Post #66 of 172
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In reply to: Damn, I told myself I wasn't going to post in this thread but I have to. My dawg is my son and I would NEVER leave him home. He likes going to the crag as much as I do and would be pissed if I quit taking him. He is never on a leash, in total voice control (the first time I say something). On the other hand, people at the crag...well never mind. Caine is a 140 lb Rotty and when you see him at the crag come say high, because more than anything he hates it when people are scared of him.
snodawg is apparently an animal psychologist who should see a psychologist himself and talk about canine attachment issues. Sorry - it's not your son.
Once again, so many of the arguments made in this thread that are pro-dog at the crag reek of materialism. How so? People justify bringing their dogs to the crag as a symbol of their "outdoorsman-ness," basically it's climber chique to have a dog, a pair of prana pants, and a puffy jacket. If you were really going to spend quality time with the dog, then the animal would be on the rope and you wouldn't. Everything else is usually just a justification to be seen with a symbol of your climber-ness.
Okay, now this thread has reached a fitting conclusion. Do not respond at this point.
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renohandjams
Mar 16, 2006, 1:11 AM
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In reply to: Dogs at the crags suck. I SAID SUCK! MD |
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cragdawg
Mar 16, 2006, 2:23 AM
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I don't mind the dogs being there, but as soon as one tries to get in my bag or take a bite at me....it's gonna be a hurtin' dog!
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kuan
Mar 16, 2006, 3:40 AM
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A poorly trained dog has no place at the crag. Best case scenario, it's a huge annoyance - going through your food, stepping on your gear, and getting in the way as you belay. Worst case scenario, a rowdy dog could be quite dangerous - to itself and to others!
Having said that, most owners I've met with dogs at the crag are totally considerate, and have their dogs in check, so I have no problems with them. I love to give a friendly pooch a good scratch behind the ears between climbing - as long as they haven't rolled in dead things, poop, or poison oak!
What's the big deal? Most dogs are happy to be outside and with their owners, and as long as they're well-behaved, I'd rather see them outside than know they are stuck at home, bored!
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calii22
Mar 16, 2006, 4:37 AM
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dogs rule what are you all whineing about if your dogs good then great brig it if not screw it and dont bring it. mine climbs with me every time no matter what and everyone loves her actully its my girls but still... we all live together were all family. My dog will stand by me way longer then people that hate them.
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mdude
Mar 16, 2006, 4:42 AM
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Dogs suck.
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boardline22
Mar 16, 2006, 5:23 AM
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I have a mutt and I would not bring her to the crag for several reasons
1. I just got her so I can't trust her
2. I don't know how well she will respond when distractions are around
3. she may get bored
4. I don't know how she will socialize withe humans or with other dogs
I can say though that I will bring her on camping and canoe trips when I plan on being with her and not leaving her alone.
start RANT Also, roklizard dirt biking and off roading do not count as "real" outdoor activities because you are not propelling yourself you are using gasoline. If you mean mountain biking it is okay, but come on. That is like saying I'm a surfer just because I go down water slides or something like that. Camping is good as long as no RV or car camping. Also desert partier, you probably do more damage to the desert, which is a fragile environment then cats and dogs combined. Glass is a pain to decompose, so is plastic an aluminum. It gets me pissed of when people say they love the environment and enjoy times on the trail and crap like that when they use other means, especially mechanical to do it. End RANT
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ter_bee
Mar 16, 2006, 5:37 AM
Post #73 of 172
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In reply to: Once again, so many of the arguments made in this thread that are pro-dog at the crag reek of materialism. How so? People justify bringing their dogs to the crag as a symbol of their "outdoorsman-ness," basically it's climber chique to have a dog, a pair of prana pants, and a puffy jacket. If you were really going to spend quality time with the dog, then the animal would be on the rope and you wouldn't. Everything else is usually just a justification to be seen with a symbol of your climber-ness. Okay, now this thread has reached a fitting conclusion. Do not respond at this point.
hahaha, i'm starting to believe this thread will never die. and honey, it's hard to have the last post when you're so obviously WRONG. chic is not spelt with a Q, and dogs don't prove we're outdoorsy. dogs prove we are amiable, which loosely translates to we can make friends. can you?
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sidepull
Mar 16, 2006, 10:32 PM
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terb, are you the antonym for logic? dogs prove you're amiable? give me a break - so policemen have dogs to show their love for society? you're actually saying that you bring your dog to the crag to show that you are able to make friends? I suppose that's what the czechs were doing as well?
BS!
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moco2
Mar 17, 2006, 1:20 AM
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In reply to: Blah, Blah, Blah complain all you want. Whatever... I take my dog "Elmo" in the woods with me everytime and guess what... He's usually not on a leash. Don't be a jerk about my dog or its your problem. NOT mine. "Elmo" is a 100lb pitbull that loves most, but hates annoying climbers that complain about dogs! ...See ya in the woods! :lol:
Oh, I won't complain...no worries there!
I have two cans of bearspray, one for each of ya.
See ya! :lol:
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