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jred
Mar 27, 2006, 7:12 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Anyone have deathtoll numbers for the last 50 years. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that killing in the name of Islam leads the pack. Sorry, atheists are still miles ahead. Stalin's purges didn't end until the mid fifties, mao killed around 40 million in the sixties and pol pot was still actively conducting mass murder until the late seventies. I doubt the muslim community worldwide could even begin to compete with that.
You can not take a group of people who's only common denominator is they don't believe in something and lump them together, it would make more sense to lump Jews, Christians and Muslims together, they share the same roots at least.
I would never assume that people who did not believe in UFOs all shared the same values, that would be ridiculous.
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bobd1953
Mar 28, 2006, 1:01 AM
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Hilter was not an atheist...he was raised Catholic.
Myth 1: Hitler was not a Christian
The entire section on Hitler's Christianity provides ample evidence for his brand of Christianity. The evidence itself destroys any opinions or beliefs about Hitler's alleged apostasy.
The evidence shows that:
Hitler was born and baptized into Catholicism
His Jewish antisemitism came from his Christian background.
His early personal notes shows his interest in religion and Biblical views.
A little
He believed that the Bible represented the history of mankind.
His Nazi party platform (their version of a constitution) included a section on Positive Christianity, and he never removed it.
He confessed his Christianity.
He tried to establish a united Reich German Church.
Hitler allowed the destruction of Jewish synagogues and temples, but not Christian churches.
He encouraged Nazis to worship in Christian churches.
He spoke of his Christian beliefs in his speeches and proclamations.
His contemporaries, friends, Protestant ministers and Catholics priests, including the Vatican, thought of Hitler as a Christian.
The Catholic Church never excommunicated Hitler. He died a Catholic.
To ignore the evidence of Hitler's Christianity demonstrates how power of belief can obscure the facts.
Stalin 1894 - Stalin and his mother move to Tiflis, where Stalin enrols at the Tiflis Theological Seminary and joins the Marxist underground in an empire racked by dissent and heading closer to revolution. Stalin becomes a leader of a clandestine Marxist group at the seminary, however when his revolutionary activities are discovered he is expelled.
Another one with a Christian upbringing.
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yorb
Mar 28, 2006, 1:16 AM
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Anyone who claims they are a christian and hates the jews is either a liar, or they are out of their mind.... but most likely a liar.
I really don't believe for a second that Hitler was a christian; but if he was... I really don't want to see anyone go to hell, regardless of how horrible and sick they are. For anyone that thinks that is ridicules, "he deserves hell," well... so do I and so does everyone else...
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bobd1953
Mar 28, 2006, 1:38 AM
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Another thing on Stalin...as bad as he was...it didn't stop the US or Britain to form a partnership with him during WW2.
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tradman
Mar 28, 2006, 8:13 AM
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In reply to: blah blah blah hitler was a christian
No, he wasn't.
How do we know?
Because he said he wasn't.
Here are a just a few of hundreds of quotes on the subject from hitler himself:
In reply to: Night of 11th-12th July, 1941 "National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... "The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... "Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7) 10th October, 1941, midday "Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43) 14th October, 1941, midday "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... "Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... "...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... "Christianity [is] the liar.... "We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52) 19th October, 1941, night "The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity." 21st October, 1941, midday "Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... "The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the
instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight
"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)
14th December, 1941, midday
"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism,
under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)
9th April, 1942, dinner
"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)
27th February, 1942, midday
"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold [its]." (p 278)
So tell us, if he was a christian, why did he repeatedly and vehemently say he wasn't?
:lol:
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thorne
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Mar 28, 2006, 12:52 PM
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Hey Bob,
It seems like you're saying if you were brought up in the Church, that means you are a Christian as an adult. How does this compare to your own life?
Hitler and Stalin may have been brought up in some kind of Christian environment, but their actions (once in power) don't reflect a Christian faith.
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ter_bee
Mar 28, 2006, 1:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Tradman, atheism is not a belief system. That's what atheism is supposed to be (or rather not be), yes.
be or not be? that was exactly the question.
In reply to: However, you know as well as I do that most atheists share common beliefs... If they don't then how come we see them agreeing right here in this thread?
whoa! you're all good until you start speaking for other people, tm. i'd like you to try to identify the athiests and tell us what they agree on (other than that they don't like religion, which is a defining feature). i've seen only one identify himself.
this is perhaps a good time to add a quote from my favorite condemned muslim, salman rushdie. this should be way better than hitler:
In reply to: Question: What is the opposite of faith? Not disbelief. Too final, certain, closed. Itself a kind of belief. Doubt. |
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ter_bee
Mar 28, 2006, 1:54 PM
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In reply to: Hitler and Stalin may have been brought up in some kind of Christian environment, but their actions (once in power) don't reflect a Christian faith.
This is exactly the question. Do they not reflect your idea of a Christian faith, or is every manifestation of Christianity peaceful?
BTW, I am certainly not arguing that either man was a Christian.
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thorne
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Mar 28, 2006, 2:05 PM
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I think the point Tradman was trying to make was that although Atheists don't necessarily subscribe to a specific creed, they do share common beliefs.
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wjca
Mar 28, 2006, 2:09 PM
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In reply to: I think the point Tradman was trying to make was that although Atheists don't necessarily subscribe to a specific creed, they do share common beliefs.
...or non-beliefs, as it were.
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ter_bee
Mar 28, 2006, 5:54 PM
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Did I miss it tradman, or did you not identify the athiests in this thread? Is that perhaps because you're guessing about who they are?
By the way, I DO agree with you if you are changing what you are saying to 'athiests are athiests.' (A brilliant conclusion.) And by the way, I wasn't firmly on the other side (thus the rushdie quote) until you got all smug. But let's recap:
In reply to: In reply to: Stalin's purges didn't end until the mid fifties, mao killed around 40 million in the sixties and pol pot was still actively conducting mass murder until the late seventies. I doubt the muslim community worldwide could even begin to compete with that. Tradman, atheism is not a belief system. Atheists do not follow any doctrine, assemble or share beliefs with one another. No one kills in the name of atheism, many have killed in the name of Christianity. You can not take a group of people who's only common denominator is they don't believe in something and lump them together, it would make more sense to lump Jews, Christians and Muslims together, they share the same roots at least. I would never assume that people who did not believe in UFOs all shared the same values, that would be ridiculous.
Then tradman said In reply to: blah blah athiests DO share a belief system (sic) and you know it look at the people on this thread.
Religions help their members decide how to think about the important things like 'the meaning of life' and what good behavior is, etcetera. If athiests all agree on these things, can you tell me what their doctrine is? What does life mean to athiests today? What is their code of ethics?
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jred
Mar 28, 2006, 7:24 PM
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Tradman, you seem to have quoted only the portion of my post which suited your argument. I have re-posted it.
Tradman, atheism is not a belief system. Atheists do not follow any doctrine, assemble or share beliefs with one another. No one kills in the name of atheism, many have killed in the name of Christianity.
You can not take a group of people who's only common denominator is they don't believe in something and lump them together, it would make more sense to lump Jews, Christians and Muslims together, they share the same roots at least.
I would never assume that people who did not believe in UFOs all shared the same values, that would be ridiculous.
You examples of murdering atheists fail to show how atheism was in anyway responsible. Each one of your examples clearly showed different beliefs from each other.
Again, I do not believe in UFOs, as you most likely do not either, does that mean we believe in the same thing, no UFOs
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ter_bee
Mar 29, 2006, 2:03 AM
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In reply to: “I have had servants,” said Mrs. Ambrose, concentrating her gaze. “At this moment I have a nurse. She’s a good woman as they go, but she’s determined to make my children pray. So far, owing to great care on my part, they think of God as a kind of walrus; but now that my back’s turned—Ridley,” she demanded, swinging round upon her husband, “what shall we do if we find them saying the Lord’s Prayer when we get home again?”
you can read the whole book online for free at http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/...a/w91v/chapter1.html -- hooray for preservationists!!
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vivalargo
Mar 29, 2006, 3:04 AM
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In reply to: I do not believe in UFOs, as you most likely do not either, does that mean we believe in the same thing, no UFOs
That's interesting because (to me, at least) it underscores how a negative value (what we deny) can itself become a sort of belief, with folks attached to the verity of their position (for example--God does not exist) as being "correct." Seems like the flip side of fundamentalism, with folks out there actively asserting their atheism with ecumenical resolve.
My sense of all this is that if you ever hope to experience anything transcendent (greater than yourself) you have to let go of most everything you believe in and don't believe in and wait till the void is filled by something (for lack of another word) beyond your own thoughts and memories. Just because you haven't struggled with the letting go process doesn't mean there isn't more out there to experience, some of which requires no belief structure whatsoever.
JL
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styndall
Mar 29, 2006, 3:19 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: tell us what they agree on (other than that they don't like religion, which is a defining feature). So, you do accept that they do share at least one belief? Glad you think I'm right. Thanks!
Not believing in God is my belief in the same way that not collecting stamps is my hobby.
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philbox
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Mar 29, 2006, 3:26 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: tell us what they agree on (other than that they don't like religion, which is a defining feature). So, you do accept that they do share at least one belief? Glad you think I'm right. Thanks! Not believing in God is my belief in the same way that not collecting stamps is my hobby.
In the same vein I wish that someone would pay me for not working. :wink:
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blondgecko
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Mar 29, 2006, 3:34 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: tell us what they agree on (other than that they don't like religion, which is a defining feature). So, you do accept that they do share at least one belief? Glad you think I'm right. Thanks! Not believing in God is my belief in the same way that not collecting stamps is my hobby.
Beautiful! That's going straight into my sig.
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curt
Mar 29, 2006, 3:41 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: tell us what they agree on (other than that they don't like religion, which is a defining feature). So, you do accept that they do share at least one belief? Glad you think I'm right. Thanks! Not believing in God is my belief in the same way that not collecting stamps is my hobby.
Excellent. 8^)
Curt
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ter_bee
Mar 29, 2006, 1:07 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Not believing in God is my belief in the same way that not collecting stamps is my hobby. :lol: 8^) Superb!
It's nice that you're happy when people contradict you.
_________________________________________
...they think of god as a kind of WALRUS...
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tradman
Mar 29, 2006, 1:25 PM
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No, this is something different. It's called having a sense of humour.
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