If you'd like to do the math, notice that as you reduce friction and taper angle, outward force increases. There's an asymptote at zero friction or angle where outward force approaches infinity.

I place what I need to to be safe. I try not to get into a rut, though. By practicing lesser-used placements, I'm prepared to safely climb in a greater variety of conditions.

while they do have springs in the design the springs aren't required for the device to work. a cam with no springs would be reletively useless. a big bro with no springs, while very hard to place, would still hold.

...
If you'd like to do the math, notice that as you reduce friction and taper angle, outward force increases. ...

Nuts would not function in a zero friction world.

I know i spell

Nuts would not function in a zero friction world. They would either split or crush the rock with outward force, or the force would destroy the nut itself.

If you'd like to do the math, notice that as you reduce friction and taper angle, outward force increases. There's an asymptote at zero friction or angle where outward force approaches infinity.

Of course this is all theoretical, and has no place in the real world; nor do arbitrary gear definitions. It all makes interesting discussions, but I don't take it to the rock.

I'm curious if their are any using only passive gear

Mo cow bell

approach to climbing

The subject of this thread pains me.

well ill just use them passively, technically they do have an axle....

That's right kids, Memorial Day 2009 is going to be the first 'National Cam-Free Day'! Go passive and grab a piece of history. Hell you'll still have harnesses, ultra-stick rubber, and skinny ropes - go for it, and get a taste of how Grandma and pa did things in the bad ole' days. Quaking or smiling, it will be a day you won't forget!

Ya I climb with a set of nuts too, always.. tend to carry smaller ones in ice though

Why don't you REALLY go full on purest, and toss all the metal, use only knotted slings?
There are actually crags where this is the rule.

Ya I climb with a set of nuts too, always.. tend to carry smaller ones in ice though

well i could fill my pockets with rocks..

..wear hobnail boots and climb on a hemp rope ohh, and wear my laterhosen (Sp) but i think i would get alot of strange looks, ill try throwing in a knoted slink or two just for you....

Doesn't that limit the routes you can do in winter?

It quickly seems apparen that your theoretical world is flawed in theory. In theory land there are two contact forces between parallel surfaces - friction and the normal force. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_force You seem to have completely forgotton about this normal force which just so happens to be the most important force in nut placements.

With wedged nuts in wedged shaped cracks it is trivial to resolve the force vectors allowing only for forces that are normal to the surfaces.

In contrast cams operate in parallel cracks where the two contact force vectors are both orthoganal to the force applied. Thus friction forces are required to resolve the vector problem.

To get more geeky the two contact normal vectors are not parallel in the plane thus vector resolution can occur. With parallel cracks an orthoganal vector in terms of friction is needed to oppose the applied force.

If you are going to do the math. Do it right. And don't ignore the 50% of the contact forces!


(written aggressively but no malice intended, you went geek so I went geekier)