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atg200
Jun 2, 2003, 6:55 PM
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change your profile if you don't want people to assume you are from kansas photon. alpinestylist knows what he is talking about when talking about hard climbing - go repeat his climbs in the black canyon and see what you think. it is so easy to slag people when you never say anything positive or useful, and hide behind a wall of bitterness.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 2, 2003, 7:21 PM
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This post has gotten so far off track it is basicly pointless. I was under the impression that the original question was refering to free climbs. I personaly belive that some of the long involved tower routs that are free or mostly free are probably harder that a short extremly hard sport rt. A long climb with say 5.13 crack 10+ scary chimny maby even a short section of A4 with a final pitch of hard free climbing would be far harder than a 60 ft 5.14 spurt climb. I do spurt climb as well as trad and aid . not great at any of them but do it a lot and love it all. I have only climbed in utah about 5 or 6 times, maby about 20 days over the years but am very impressed with the dificulty of the cracks and chimneys.
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photon
Jun 2, 2003, 7:24 PM
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change your profile if you don't want people to assume you are from kansas photon.
its broken
"alpinestylist knows what he is talking about when talking about hard climbing - go repeat his climbs in the black canyon and see what you think."
i don't think I'll ever climb in that choss pit but thanks for offering.
NO amount of scary 5.10- 5.11 ( or 5.12 but I doubt alpinestylist climbs that hard) climbing will prepair you for hard sport climbing. And I've got plenty of climbs for your hardman too--
"it is so easy to slag people when you never say anything positive or useful, and hide behind a wall of bitterness."
even easier when people like yourself et al, start said slag, and can't take
their own medicine--
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bvb
Jun 2, 2003, 7:41 PM
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Way Back When, Photon wrote:
"That's a hard pill to swallow isn't it "trad" dudes! Probably the greatest day of trad climbing ever, The Nose free, was done by a woman sport climber! Ha ha ha ha that is rich!"
No offense photon, but Lynn Hill does not consider herself a sport climber -- her roots are in "traditional" climbing (what a maeaningless phrase), and her heart and soul remain rooted in traditional, gear protected climbing -- read her book, or ask her yourself.
The guy she freed the nose with is one of my best and oldest freinds. Like Lynn, he has a strong background in steep bolt-protected face climbing (er, excuse me, "sport" climbing) and he considers himself an all-rounder -- sport climber, crack master, alpine climber, surfer, skateboarder, father, husband, etc.
If you've got a point to make, then by all means do so. But if you're going to drag Lynn Hill into your arguement, at least do your homework.
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photon
Jun 2, 2003, 8:06 PM
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"No offense photon, but Lynn Hill does not consider herself a sport climber -- her roots are in "traditional" climbing (what a maeaningless phrase), and her heart and soul remain rooted in traditional, gear protected climbing -- read her book, or ask her yourself. "
I talked to her, she told me and hundreds other that she trained almost exlusively in Ceuse France to free climb the Nose. I realize I said she was a sport climber, and she is, I guess since she free climbed the Nose that implies she is a trad climber too? Most of her most well known achievements are "sport climbing" related. Comps, first woman to climb 5.14, etc...
he considers himself an all-rounder
"thank god"
You are just re-iterating what I've already said, I don't think you'll hear Lynn saying a scary 5.11 she did was harder than a 5.14 she did though,
she's too wise I think and since she is good at both "trad" and "sport" (unlike many of the people that frequent this site) doesn't feel the need to bad mouth one or the other.
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alpinestylist
Jun 2, 2003, 8:19 PM
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Photon...
you swarthy little punter. What a fool you are my friend. While I don't feel the need to print my tick list on the internet ,I am physically injured and left with nothing else to do but type...
I guess without being too much of a jerk I can't just outright diss you for spending so much of your vitality on the blue taped TR gym route.
Dissing the Black Canyon displays a healthy lack of knowledge of American rock climbing history...old and current.
R. Leavitt left his mark there many moons yonder. The boyz there onsight 5.13 these days.
I only chimed in to hopefully engage a discussion about nasty old fat lazy aid climbing.
you seem so locked in your head about many things. There is no way you can climb (sanely) 10,11, or 12!! XXX without being able to climb harder than that with gear.
The steepest ladder with smallest rungs was an analogy. If you read much they'll teach you that in 9th grade.
I don't just aid climb, sport climb, alpine climb, M climb, trad climb or climb out of bed...I just climb. LIke most of all of our heroes.
Maybe we'll meet someday and I can put a TR up for you.
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photon
Jun 2, 2003, 9:00 PM
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"you swarthy little punter. What a fool you are my friend. While I don't feel the need to print my tick list on the internet ,I am physically injured and left with nothing else to do but type... "
oh good thanks , i would have taken the time to read your ticklist though, really
"I guess without being too much of a jerk I can't just outright diss you for spending so much of your vitality on the blue taped TR gym route. "
Oh don't wory about not being a jerk it's too late for that anyway.
Next time I'm plugging gear or placing a screw I'll try to remember
your attempt to be cute and clever! Comedy is priceless when one is wigging.
"Dissing the Black Canyon displays a healthy lack of knowledge of American rock climbing history...old and current.
R. Leavitt left his mark there many moons yonder. The boyz there onsight 5.13 these days. "
sweet, yeah, go team choss, I spoke w/ Randy for a couple of hours one night about 5 years ago -Great Guy, the Black Canyon never came up--Colorado never came up for that matter. It was all about steep tall limestone in Cali and Arizona. But I don't need history or badasses to tell me what choss is, if you like climbing there have at it, it's just one less person for you to wait for.
"I only chimed in to hopefully engage a discussion about nasty old fat lazy aid climbing. you seem so locked in your head about many things. There is no way you can climb (sanely) 10,11, or 12!! XXX without being able to climb harder than that with gear. "
I agree, so then you have climbed 5.13-14 then? Sorry, most people on this site haven't climbed 5.8 any style.
"The steepest ladder with smallest rungs was an analogy. If you read much they'll teach you that in 9th grade. "
no kidding a poor one yet revealing at the same time, the 9th grade thing is quite good though, don't hurt your mellon too much thinking up those doozies you're already injured dude--- way fresh more kudos to you
"I don't just aid climb, sport climb, alpine climb, M climb, trad climb or climb out of bed...I just climb. LIke most of all of our heroes. "
so do i sans aid climb (i'm a FREE climber until I can't pull down anymore until then- just more stone for you)
"Maybe we'll meet someday and I can put a TR up for you"
thanks that's nice , everyone needs a rope gun like you
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 2, 2003, 10:30 PM
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here is a question for you photon. what would be harder? free climb the nose in a single push? By that i mean do the pitches in sequence in a day. It would not count to free individual pitches on different attempts. you would have to string them all together like Lyn did. this is a trad rt that has not been repeted ? Free Realization. This is a sport rt that I am not sure if has been repeted? realization is 130 ft long? I am sketchy on some of the details here but am sure that you will fill me in.
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photon
Jun 3, 2003, 1:39 PM
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Comparing sport to trad is a waste of time.
Both climbs are monumental achievements.
Regressing further, (but not low enough to compare aid to free climbing)
I would have to say that Sharma has a lot better chance sending the Nose in day than Lynn would ever have of doing even the "easy" 14c part of Realization. Therefore, because Realization is in France and no Mormons are allowed to live there it fails to qualify as Utah's hardest route and because Warren Harding first climbed the Nose with the help of many bottles of wine and profanity (and the Nose ain't in Utah) it also can not ever be referred to as Utah's hardest route.
Hope that clears it up for you
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bvb
Jun 3, 2003, 2:32 PM
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In reply to: Way Back When, Photon wrote: "That's a hard pill to swallow isn't it "trad" dudes! Probably the greatest day of trad climbing ever, The Nose free, was done by a woman sport climber! Ha ha ha ha that is rich!" No offense photon, but Lynn Hill does not consider herself a sport climber -- her roots are in "traditional" climbing (what a maeaningless phrase), and her heart and soul remain rooted in traditional, gear protected climbing -- read her book, or ask her yourself. The guy she freed the nose with is one of my best and oldest freinds. Like Lynn, he has a strong background in steep bolt-protected face climbing (er, excuse me, "sport" climbing) and he considers himself an all-rounder -- sport climber, crack master, alpine climber, surfer, skateboarder, father, husband, etc. If you've got a point to make, then by all means do so. But if you're going to drag Lynn Hill into your arguement, at least do your homework.
Agreed, Lynn Hill climbs at Ceuse.
I think you missed the point of my post.
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sidepull
Jun 3, 2003, 3:20 PM
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maybe a little back on topic, . . .
I read in Climbing that Jason Campbell repeated Graham's Psychedelic shortly after the FA and felt that it was more like 13d/14a. However, the route looks sick hard on video.
Are there any other potential 14d's in Utah?
I know there has been a lot of development in less-known areas that has produced some potential 14's.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 3, 2003, 3:27 PM
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If the nose is so damn easy for sharma why dosen't he just run up there and free it. This post decended into the trad vs sport thing about 4 pages ago so it is a revelant question. I don't know how the aid thing even got in here though, as it is obvious to anyone who has both free climbed and aid climbed that aid clinbing is scary but not hard. The whole reason we resort to aid climbing is because the terrain is too hard for us to free climb. Maby those guys are to old to have discovered adjustable daisies? :roll:
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winkwinklambonini
Jun 7, 2003, 9:33 PM
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In reply to: I would have to say that Sharma has a lot better chance sending the Nose in day than Lynn would ever have of doing even the "easy" 14c part of Realization.
^false^ sharma has NO chance of freeing the nose in a day.....Zero
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photon
Jun 9, 2003, 4:33 PM
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"^false^ sharma has NO chance of freeing the nose in a day.....Zero "
Sharma climbed some 5.13 cracks in the valley 2 weeks after learning how to plug gear and jam. That gives him a better chance than most.
don't confuse your ability (lame wad) with Sharma's (rock god)
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alpinestylist
Jun 9, 2003, 7:16 PM
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I think someone wants the rock god's wad.
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billburning
Jun 9, 2003, 8:12 PM
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It's good to see photon still representing the midwest spraylords, straight outta Kansas...word! The Black Canyon is a choss pile and she climbs at WILD IOWA? HAHAHAHAHA, that's rich! What a douche bag! Seriously, if you are such a badass photon, like I said before I'm driving through Iowa on my way to Chicago around July 5th. I'd love to get slayed on some of your two bolt "5.12's". Anyway, I'm off to Yosemite tomorrow to climb the choss pile that is El Cap. TATA!
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rockprodigy
Jun 9, 2003, 8:13 PM
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In reply to: I read in Climbing that Jason Campbell repeated Graham's Psychedelic shortly after the FA and felt that it was more like 13d/14a. However, the route looks sick hard on video
Do you know which issue it was? I was working on the route right next to it when Boone was trying it, and it looked a helluva lot harder than 13d.
In reply to: ^false^ sharma has NO chance of freeing the nose in a day.....Zero
Let's not confuse not WANTING to climb something with being UNABLE to climb something. I hate Sharma as much as then next guy, but I think if he really cared about climbing (which he doesn't) and he trained for the route like Lynn did, he could probably free the Nose, along with a handful of other people like Rodden, Caldwell, Beziartu, the Hubers, Graham etc..
The cool thing about climbing is that there are so many different styles that appeal to different people. If we were all the same, there would be 1 million climbers lining up to get on Astrodog this Saturday, but fortunately we're different. The handful of people that care about absolute difficulty are sport climbers, because the hardest climbable routes are sport.
Alan Watts was one of the best crack climbers in the world in the early 80's, he put up a 13c/d crack at Smith Rock that was the hardest route in the US for 14 months. He said "there are no hard cracks" right after he single-handedly invented sport climbing in the US. If the crack is big enough to get your fingers in, then it's almost automatically too easy to be considered as a "hardest route".
If trad climbing is so hard, why is it that countless top sport climbers are able to pick it up so quickly? Why don't we see all the top trad climbers (are there any?) jumping on 14d's with ease? ...oh, that's because the top trad climbers are all sport climbers.
Climbers who have freed El Cap (not counting Free Rider or West Face):
Paul Piana (Salathe)
Todd Skinner (Salathe)
Lynn Hill (Nose)
Alex Huber (Salathe, Golden Gate, El Corazon)
Thomas Huber (Salathe, Golden Gate)
Tommy Caldwell (Salathe, Lurking Fear, The Shaft/Muir)
Beth Rodden (Lurking Fear)
Yuji Hirayama (Salathe)
Nick Sagar* (The Shaft/Muir)
*had never trad climbed before El Cap!
Could any of those climbers write "sport climbing is neither" in their profile without being a hypocrit?
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neadamthal
Jun 9, 2003, 8:54 PM
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photon - chill out man!
8)
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alpinestylist
Jun 9, 2003, 8:58 PM
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I climbed Astroman today, but I jugged the pitches that my partner lead cuz the pack was too heavy to climb free with.\
Did I free Astroman?
Did Skinner or Piana free El Cap?
I have only met Nick Sagar once, nice enough guy. I would be curious to know if they swapped leads on the Muir or Tommy lead most of it? I think Tommy was the gun.
Before I start another flame war I would just like to say that I think every type of climbing helps every other type of climbing. The bouldering helps me hang on longer to place gear. The aid climbing help me know exactly what kind of gear to place. The runout trad stuff helps with high ball topouts, and teh alpine stuff just helps your overall awareness. Everything helps alpinism.
I have friends that climb V11 and I would retire from M climbing if they ever picked up tools cuz it would just be too easy.
Let the slag and schmack fly
If Sharma wanted too, like a plane full of pot smashed into the glowering spot, he would be the first guy up there FREE.
If any rock star chicky really wanted to obsess about Biographie they could clip teh chains.
all about what you psyched on
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rockprodigy
Jun 9, 2003, 9:29 PM
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In reply to: I climbed Astroman today, but I jugged the pitches that my partner lead cuz the pack was too heavy to climb free with.\ Did I free Astroman? Did Skinner or Piana free El Cap? I have only met Nick Sagar once, nice enough guy. I would be curious to know if they swapped leads on the Muir or Tommy lead most of it? I think Tommy was the gun.
What's your point here? Are we now debating the historically evolving definition of free big walls, because, if so, let's not forget that the first "free" ascent of Astroman was also done in "team free" style.
End of Sidebar
My point is that these people are still sport climbers. Remove Skinner, Piana, and Sagar if you want, but it's still a list of sport climbers. They do other stuff as well, but they also sport climb!!
I do all the things you describe, but I still think sport climbing is F--ing hard, and I think the above-named climbers would probably agree. They may disagree on what is hardest, but for me, sport climbing is hardest. I think I have a lot more realistic chance of someday freeing the Salathe Wall, than I have of climbing 14d, but maybe I'm built differently.
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photon
Jun 10, 2003, 2:44 PM
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light
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cory
Jun 10, 2003, 2:49 PM
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Not to split hairs, but that was a different route, called Breaking the Law. It's not even at the same cliff as Psychadellic, and was originally rated 14b.
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