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wyomingclimber
Aug 6, 2003, 7:41 PM
Post #51 of 113
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I gotta tell you, I've been sportclimbing for well over a decade and I've climbed on every continent except Antarctica and S. America with hundreds of climbers with redpoint abilities from 5.8 to 5.14. Where the fu(k (to use your word) are all these people who love one move wonders so much? Where are these ultra-cruxy climbs with people lined up waiting to get on them?
I'm not saying I support chipping and I have never chipped a piece of rock in my life, but come on, this is getting silly.
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chitlinsconcarne
Aug 6, 2003, 7:47 PM
Post #52 of 113
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A place like Jacks gets the bad rap because some writer decided to point the finger that direction instead of another. Sinks is perhaps not so well known and the drilled routes I've been on there were fairly hard but fun..not much to go off about in that regard. There is not really that much to write about in the climbing world that doesn't require the author to actually go somewhere and do something. So, if no controversy is really flaring, just sit behind the desk and generate one..calling an article the "5 worst crags" is bound to do the job. Picking on the Scar seems a bit mean spirited though-- climbers making do with what they've got is in the finest tradition.
Aid climbing..ah yes. I've chipped thousands of holds on hundreds of pitches on this planet-we just called it nailing. We did it because we weren't able to climb the rock any other way. Sound familiar?
Each thing we do comes down to three things: Intent, action, and consequences. Chipping sport routes or nailing aid lines, its all the same in those three aspects..we intend to climb the route-we nail/chip it because we can't/ won't do it any other way-and the consequence is that we change the route for those who come after.
You can dance and sing, but in the end we all find reasons to do the things that we really want to do. What am I going to do..rave at some kid poking finger holes in a choss pile? Meanwhile, I spent years banging iron into some of the worlds greatest pieces of stone because I was too damn weak and nearsighted to realize the stuff was free climbable? Glass houses plus big rocks equals bad combination.
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wigglestick
Aug 6, 2003, 7:53 PM
Post #53 of 113
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In reply to: Why do you think it sounds stupid? It's the exact same issue. Eliminate the one 5.10 move on the 5.6 route to turn a bad 5.10 into a great 5.6.
Well, whether I think it is stupid or not doesn't matter. The fact remains that this doesn't happen. You are welcome to prove me wrong by naming examples of 5.6 sport routes that were chipped down to that level in order to make them pretty. But the fact that you probably can't leads me to believe it is ego rather than community service that leads to route developers chipping routes.
When are people going to start chipping to make routes harder? I mean suppose you have a sexy 5.11 interrupted by a huge jug/no hands rest. Why don't you just bust that sucker off to create a prettier, sustained, yet more difficult route?
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 6, 2003, 8:18 PM
Post #54 of 113
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There was a case in the Hell cave, where someone found a new sequence with a previously unused hold and down rated the route. The FA’ist came back and chiseled the hold off.
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roughster
Aug 6, 2003, 8:53 PM
Post #55 of 113
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In reply to: Sure it is. Geez, pick up an old guidebook. Aid climbing is climbing too...
By that same analgoy, chipped routes is climbing too... I don't see anyone defending Aid climbing as it related to being different as chipping but you.
In reply to: Hmmm...sorta kinda. On a few select routes, you're right. Serenity isn't one of those routes, though. And...was a big difference when nuttin' instead of hammerin' pins came into vogue.
LOL, you really need to brush up on your history there Brian. There was a long time resentment for people who moved to nuts and many, dare say most, stuck with pins for a good long time after nuts were available. Also, have you ever climbed a Zion big wall route?? Pins still get pounded into many of the "C#" aid routes despite them going clean. New routes have pins used on them all over the world creating holds for future free climbers.
In reply to: Both Cottonwoods? Little for sure (Green A, was a beauty. But, yeah, totally artificial). Big? Not really. Look at the rock type. Most likely some routes got "aggressive" cleaning, though. But, that bullet proof quartzite doesn't really lend itself to pin scarring... But, again. Pull out an old guide book. Folk were using pins as pro, even for free routes. And folks were aid climbing. Way different than the way a modern sports climb goes up.
Folks were only climbing 5.12 back in the day too. Understand the correlation??
In reply to: Ok. But, I see the history and try to understand the developement of both the differences in style and ethics. And, when it comes to folks freeing old aid lines, versus puttin' up a sport route as a free project only, there's a big difference to me.
Not too me, and once again your looking a bit funny out there on your own.
In reply to: But, yeah. I get that moderate sport routes have some "funny" stuff too. I just hope that "funny" is primarily cleaning and not dumbing down by chipping.
You can "hope" all you want. Deosn't mean its reality. I "hope" that US Government is working in the best interest of the American people, doesn't mean it is.
In reply to: Myopia. Soda straw. I'd disagree with "lots". And, I know plenty of folk who develope routes that don't leave them "undone". Someone bags them pretty quickly. But I'll concede that most every popular crag has projects. Just not "lots" of them.
"Lots" is used in context to you refering that people don't bolt and leave climbs for others, which I said is BS. I have a ton of guidebooks to areas all over the U.S and there is not a single on to which I cannot open and find a "project" in a few secs. That is enough to justify the term "lots" to me.
In reply to: That's mighty generous. But, you still want credit? Still want your name in the guidebook? How do guidebook authors designate this? Credit goes to the unselfish route developer Aaron for leavin' undone projects everywhere for other folks to finish?
Still want the credit?? No. It has nothing to do with "credit". Still want my name in the guidebook? Uhh once again no. Hell I write the guidebooks to the areas I develop. I have never once used the "FAist" distinction on any of them. Nice try though! Your scratching so blindly for something that you have to resort to feeble crap like this just shows your weak stance to begin with.
In reply to: Its seems very important to you that folks know this...which...is interesting...
HUH? As stated above, it means NOTHING to me and I don't even include it in the guide. You said you have gone to the Nut Tree Boulders, did the problems have the FA listed? What exactly are you smoking Brian?
In reply to: Take what was perhaps the first route in the US rap drilled with a power drill. Folks remember the guy who did the FA. But, who put in the hardware, drilled the holes?
OK I agree with this. So what does it mean?? That route development is largely a thankless job that people take for granted. OK you proved my point, are you happy? :) I don't think people should include the "Established by" or "Bolted by" terminology in guidebooks. I have seen it done in many guides. I personally think it is a nice gesture but not necessary and don't include it my own. So where does that leave your theory that its all about ego Brian? Right where it started, as a figment of your own imagination.
In reply to: Aha, I see you ARE into aid climbing! Hee hee. Do you give yourself credit for the "free ascent" if you haven't done it? Or, how is the distinction layed out? FA, Aaron 5.something A0? FFA...someone else?
Jesus Brian you have really built this up something fierce in your head haven't you? I don't make ANY distinction at all. I don't mention who bolted it in any manner, period. Its not about ego despite your painstaken and misguided efforts to make it seems so. You've been shot down at every level, not it just remains to be seen how you will react when your own wounded ego responds.
In reply to: Shouldn't the person who frees it first, get first dibs on the route name? Isn't it really, "their" route, since they "did" it first? Yikes...
Actually no, I disagree with that. It isn't "their" route. They did it first, but too me, the right of the name should go the person who established it. Thats where I probably differ from many other people, but thats my stance on it. Naming is a very small reward for the time $$ and effort it takes to put up the route in the 1st place and the actual person who FA's generally will concede on such a small request. In fact, I have never had anyone complain about me wanting to keep it named in the manner to which I chose after I bolted it.
Now if it is an abandoned project which is labelled as "Project" in the guide, then sure renaming or chosing a name seems approriate, however, that is a totally different scenario to the situation I described where I will turn the FA over to someone not because I can't do the route, but because like most other developers realize, the guy down at the bottom holding your rope deserves some sort of action for being out there developing right along side you. Or the other scenario is where I turn it over to a different friend because he is stronger and can send it when I can't.
In reply to: Contradictions abound.
Easy to say, hard to show. Guess thats why you left this as a one liner...
In reply to: I see it. Am uncomfy with if m'self. I use glue to patch holes, however... In reply to: I don't try to justify any of my developing tactics to anyone. I simply state what they are. Ha ha ha.
If your not smart enough to recognize the difference between and explanation and a justification, eh, your loss.
In reply to: In reply to: My personal feeling is probably 90+% of all climbers have no clue to what developing is about, takes, or the associated costs So, you want a medal, or a trophy er something? At least some recoginition? Its ok that folks are ig'nernt. Your attempt at edjumaction seems to sometimes blur the lines with regard to ego...
Actually your last statement is pretty close to how I feel. The majority of the climbing community IS is ignorant. It has nothign to with me wanting to make myself feel special or stroke my own ego. Its about trying to make climbers see the reality of route development. Sounds like you have a hard time swallowing that, surprising considering your reputation :) ( Hahah thought I would throw one right back at you :) )
In reply to: Maybe you could just shorten that title (sorry, cheap shot). Its work. You like doin' it. That "should" be enough?
And it is, it doesn't mean that the climbing community is not better off the more people who actually understand the types of things/effort that goes into establishing routes.
In reply to: Thanks for the beta on the Nuttree Boulders, btw. Before you took the route topos off the net.
Your welcome. Now please tell me, how much in my guide did I spray about my own accomplishments? Did I give "FAs" to my name? Thats what I thought!
In reply to: And, I've really only seen pictures of "your" routes...(ha ha)...(I'd have thought you and Dave would be takin' showers together by now...)...
I'm sure given the opportunity Dave would be all hot and bothered, but I am a married man.
In reply to: But thats not what ships were built for...
Better yet, thats why some people live in glass houses for very short periods of time. They can't resist throwing rocks.
In reply to: They don't cause me pain (ok, well, not that much pain anyhoo). Yeah, yeah. Be easier to stay on the couch...but...no it really wouldn't. Its fun for me to explore the ethics of the sport sometimes. Both in an entertainment sense, and in the continuing evolution of the arguement. Its interesting to see where folks are coming from. I much appreciate that you've taken the time to explain your POV.
I agree with this and it fits very well with the 2ndary premise of my post. Informing and yes even educating people to the reality of route development is a good thing.
In reply to: Dang...Mick's whisperin' in my ear..."hugh, sha-dooby, sha=tterred..."...there's no shakin' it...
Hey if you have an imaginary buddy named Mick, more power to you. Read Mick's response, I don't see him taking the stance you are. Your own your own for this round by the looks of it.
In reply to: I think you have truley ascended to hero status, at least in my book.
*Rightfully sitting on the thrown of Hero Status FINALLY* :lol: I could care less what you think of me. Maybe you should think about this. Why would I respond to a thread like this in the manner to which I did when I knew I was going to take some harsh criticism?? Ego? Over what, internet postings? LOL! I see it as a chance for some people to actually read "the other side" to what I see as a villify all route developer mentality that is all to prevalent in today's climbing media.
In reply to: Interesting on a bunch of fronts. Sure, we all have some of those qualities. Mirror mirror on the wall... Thanks, Brian in SLC
I agree we all have those qualities to some extent, some just A LOT more than others.
I'll leave you with my favorite quote of all time and let you apply it to this scenario:
In reply to: "It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." |
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rockfax
Aug 6, 2003, 9:14 PM
Post #56 of 113
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Registered: Oct 26, 2001
Posts: 652
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This is turning inevitably into a right good pissing match where the ego leads...hardly useful for a dialogue.
I put up new routes. Unlike some I don't do it as a service to the climbing community, I don't due it for thanks.
I do it because I enjoy doing it. If I bolt it, and someone sneaks in and repoints it before me...that's my hard cheese. I missed out. They got the first ascent and can name it. That's life.
For some reason it doesn't bug me that the vast majority of climbers are ignorant of how much effort (or money) it takes to establish a new line....whether bolts or no bolts.
If I chip a hold on a route so that I can climb it, that is wrong. I should get and deserve shit from my peers...even if they don't put up new routes.
Now if I clean a route so that I can climb it. That's my business.
The worst type of hold creation is chipping masquerading as comfortization of existing features or holds. This really sucks...a hold exists but the new router can use it, so he improves until he can pull it. This is the worst kind of stealing from existing better climbers or future climbers.
New routing is not a creative process, it's a destructive process.
Making trails to a cliff, cleaning lichen and moss off the cliff, prying off flakes, drilling holes in the rock, hammering steel into the rock and leaving them there, caking the holds up with chalk and rubber. Telling the world about the place so more can come and create impact.
All that is destructive. Accept it.......I do, but I still climb....and share information.
There's nothing worse than a climber lying too himself about what he does and wrapping it up in some kind of fluffy altuistic wrapping.
Climbing is selfish......accept that too.
Once you've accepted the above, go out and climb well, put up new routes, tell people about them but be under no illusion about what you are doing.
Be honest.
Mick
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roughster
Aug 6, 2003, 9:31 PM
Post #57 of 113
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In reply to: This is turning inevitably into a right good pissing match where the ego leads...hardly useful for a dialogue.
I would agree with this, so I tried to change (a little hehe ;) ) bit of my tone on my latest response to Brian.
In reply to: I put up new routes. Unlike some I don't do it as a service to the climbing community, I don't due it for thanks.
I do put up some (not all but some) as a service to the climbing community and I know many other developers who do as well. Realistically speaking, why else would 5.12-5.13 climbers bolt in the sub 5.10 climbs other than give back to the community? I don;t do it for thanks either though. When Thanks are given its appreciated, but there is not a subconscious desire for others to give it.
In reply to: I do it because I enjoy doing it. If I bolt it, and someone sneaks in and repoints it before me...that's my hard cheese. I missed out. They got the first ascent and can name it. That's life.
I obciously enjoy it. In fact, look at most developers you know and you will see that once the bug has bitten, it is a life long passion. If someone "sneaks" the FA, I personally don't care, if they chose to rename it, then they will have a problem when the guide comes out and it doesn't have their name hehe :)
In reply to: For some reason it doesn't bug me that the vast majority of climbers are ignorant of how much effort (or money) it takes to establish a new line....whether bolts or no bolts.
It doesn't extensively bother me, but I do think that the climbing community as a whole would be better of if they DID understand.
In reply to: If I chip a hold on a route so that I can climb it, that is wrong. I should get and deserve poo from my peers...even if they don't put up new routes.
Don't disagree with this.
In reply to: Now if I clean a route so that I can climb it. That's my business.
Hence the dilemna of the grey areas...
In reply to: The worst type of hold creation is chipping masquerading as comfortization of existing features or holds. This really sucks...a hold exists but the new router can use it, so he improves until he can pull it. This is the worst kind of stealing from existing better climbers or future climbers.
I would say that is a valid opinion, not one that everyone subscribes to though.
In reply to: New routing is not a creative process, it's a destructive process.
The wind and water is a destructive process as well. Perhaps we should erect permanant structure over the cliffs to prevent this weathering process? The fact is LIFE is a destructive process. But the beauty of all things is that laws of physics state matter cannot be created nor destroyed. What is here to day is gone tomorrow, but somewhere out there in the great wide world, the weathering forces of mother nature are creating the furture crags for future generations just as she did for me.
In reply to: Making trails to a cliff, cleaning lichen and moss off the cliff, prying off flakes, drilling holes in the rock, hammering steel into the rock and leaving them there, caking the holds up with chalk and rubber. Telling the world about the place so more can come and create impact. All that is destructive. Accept it.......I do, but I still climb....and share information.
By that same token than EVERYTHING, all life activities and certainly all recrerational activities, are destructive.
In reply to: There's nothing worse than a climber lying too himself about what he does and wrapping it up in some kind of fluffy altuistic wrapping.
Fulffy altuistic to you, and not surprisingly so considering your "bleak" view of recreational activities.
In reply to: Climbing is selfish......accept that too.
Living is selfish, but eh, there are ways to cure that too.
In reply to: Once you've accepted the above, go out and climb well, put up new routes, tell people about them but be under no illusion about what you are doing. Be honest. Mick
Do it every day and I don't have any demons haunting
Now I do have some questions for you Mick. Why did you chose not to respond to my main source of contention with your previous post? The Grahamn, Caldwell, Sharma, Hume replies? I am very interested in hearing your take on my thoughts especially the Caldwell/Big Frank fiasco.
Aaron
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jt512
Aug 6, 2003, 9:46 PM
Post #58 of 113
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In reply to: In reply to: Why do you think it sounds stupid? It's the exact same issue. Eliminate the one 5.10 move on the 5.6 route to turn a bad 5.10 into a great 5.6. Well, whether I think it is stupid or not doesn't matter. The fact remains that this doesn't happen. You are welcome to prove me wrong by naming examples of 5.6 sport routes that were chipped down to that level in order to make them pretty. But the fact that you probably can't leads me to believe it is ego rather than community service that leads to route developers chipping routes.
I'll ask around. I'm pretty sure I know of a couple of routes on which this has been done.
In reply to: When are people going to start chipping to make routes harder? I mean suppose you have a sexy 5.11 interrupted by a huge jug/no hands rest. Why don't you just bust that sucker off to create a prettier, sustained, yet more difficult route?
You are naive! It's done all the time, and I could definitely give you a list of routes where jugs have been removed to make the route harder. The reality is, when developing routes on choss, the developer has a considerable influence over how difficult the finished product is going to be.
-Jay
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brianinslc
Aug 6, 2003, 10:01 PM
Post #59 of 113
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Registered: Sep 13, 2002
Posts: 1500
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Well, we've got the dreaded thread drift here...but...it is interesting...(long way from Sinks)...
In reply to: By that same analgoy, chipped routes is climbing too... I don't see anyone defending Aid climbing as it related to being different as chipping but you.
Touche! What is the sound of one hand clapping...
But...just because we're the only ones havin' this little chat, doesn't mean no one else has an opinion on it...(probably too bored with our spray to care...).
In reply to: LOL, you really need to brush up on your history there Brian.
Now, them's fightin' words...(ha ha)...(see George Bells Hall of Shame, er Fame...).
In reply to: There was a long time resentment for people who moved to nuts and many, dare say most, stuck with pins for a good long time after nuts were available.
It was a deal for sure. I'm not sure "long time resentment". Its just that folks had hammers and a rack of pins, didn't have nuts. It didn't take too long for "clean" climbing to become the norm, though. "Long" being relative...
Of course you must remember Bridwell's article about friends in Climbing magazine?
In reply to: Also, have you ever climbed a Zion big wall route?? Pins still get pounded into many of the "C#" aid routes despite them going clean.
Yes. But, if "piton Ron" catches them, whoa be to those folk (he got some juice on that...but, you probably remember what HAFWAN stands for, Mr. History lesson...).
And...I'd say its not the norm for known clean routes in Zion to get pins whacked in them, say, with the Lowe Route on AL being a notable exception. But, the standard, trade-esque clean routes? Nope. More of an issue is tryin' to get folks to not use cam hooks...(most folk seem to much prefer tryin' to free pin scars than useless cam hook scars).
And...I think there's a big difference when a route goes clean "aid" versus goes "free". OK, a small difference...but a difference all the same.
In reply to: Folks were only climbing 5.12 back in the day too. Understand the correlation??
Ok, I'll bite. What route in Utah was rated 5.12 before 1978?
Now look at the current guidebook, and compare to the aid climbs in the guidebooks from the 70's.
Understand the correlation?
In reply to: Not too me, and once again your looking a bit funny out there on your own.
Never claimed I wasn't funny lookin'...
In reply to: "Lots" is used in context to you refering that people don't bolt and leave climbs for others, which I said is BS.
My point was, that I can see how if you have a route your "developing", and its a classic 5.9 with one 5.14 V17 (or whatever) move, or its just barely out of reach at your free climbing level, that there might be some chance that someone might chip it down so it'd go. All in the name of "cleaning" or comfortizing" etc. Like you said, there's a bunch of funny bidness, and who, really, would know (except you, in your heart of course).
Line is blurry at best.
In reply to: I have a ton of guidebooks to areas all over the U.S and there is not a single on to which I cannot open and find a "project" in a few secs. That is enough to justify the term "lots" to me.
I'm thinkin' that even at the media rate, mailin' them would cost you, well, a ton.
I wonder if I have 2000 pounds of guidebooks? Hmmm....
In reply to: Still want my name in the guidebook? Uhh once again no.
Oh man, I'm gonna bust a gut, read on...
In reply to: Hell I write the guidebooks to the areas I develop.
In reply to: HUH? As stated above, it means NOTHING to me and I don't even include it in the guide. You said you have gone to the Nut Tree Boulders, did the problems have the FA listed? What exactly are you smoking Brian?
No fumar. Maybe you wouldn't be sprayin' about it if it meant so little to you...
In reply to: OK I agree with this. So what does it mean?? That route development is largely a thankless job that people take for granted. OK you proved my point, are you happy?
Whew, yes.
There's a bunch of points here, though. Yeah, route developers don't get all the credit they deserve.
There's outside media perceptions and misconceptions. There's erosion of ethics. Theres a moving of the gray line of what is acceptable. There's folks who's perceptions seem to be baised from too much rock dust....
In reply to: Jesus Brian you have really built this up something fierce in your head haven't you?
I really can't walk on water. And I could'na moved that rock all by m'self.
No, I'm gettin' a good laugh out of it. You?
In reply to: You've been shot down at every level, not it just remains to be seen how you will react when your own wounded ego responds.
Perhaps you need to switch to a higher caliber, or some better ammo for the job. Merely a flesh wound, here...
None shall pass...
In reply to: Actually no, I disagree with that. It isn't "their" route. They did it first, but too me, the right of the name should go the person who established it. Thats where I probably differ from many other people, but thats my stance on it. Naming is a very small reward for the time $$ and effort it takes to put up the route in the 1st place and the actual person who FA's generally will concede on such a small request. In fact, I have never had anyone complain about me wanting to keep it named in the manner to which I chose after I bolted it.
Har har har.
See what I mean? Thanks for proving MY point...
In reply to: Easy to say, hard to show. Guess thats why you left this as a one liner...
You can lead a horse to water...
In reply to: If your not smart enough to recognize the difference between and explanation and a justification, eh, your loss.
Methinks those lines cross for you...
In reply to: And it is, it doesn't mean that the climbing community is not better off the more people who actually understand the types of things/effort that goes into establishing routes.
Concur.
In reply to: Your welcome. Now please tell me, how much in my guide did I spray about my own accomplishments? Did I give "FAs" to my name? Thats what I thought!
Whose guide was that again? Hee hee.
In reply to: Better yet, thats why some people live in glass houses for very short periods of time. They can't resist throwing rocks.
Actually, some of us just get used to pickin' glass slivers out of our arses...
In reply to: I agree with this and it fits very well with the 2ndary premise of my post. Informing and yes even educating people to the reality of route development is a good thing.
I'd agree, maybe sorta. But, I'm not sure everyone would agree with the tactics. So, is it better to broadband and raise the ire, or be lower profile about it?
I dunno.
You might not be wining anyone over. Not exactly honey you're spreading. Although, the flys will come for the BS...
In reply to: Dang...Mick's whisperin' in my ear..."hugh, sha-dooby, sha=tterred..."...there's no shakin' it...
In reply to: Hey if you have an imaginary buddy named Mick, more power to you.
I'll take rock singers for 100, Alex...
Altamont...
In reply to: Read Mick's response, I don't see him taking the stance you are. Your own your own for this round by the looks of it.
My minions let me do their evil bidding...
Mick's response was a thing of beauty. All I did was pollute it. Shame.
In reply to: Why would I respond to a thread like this in the manner to which I did when I knew I was going to take some harsh criticism?? Ego?
Only you know the true answer to that one....
In reply to: I agree we all have those qualities to some extent, some just A LOT more than others.
Oh, NOW you get it...ha ha...
In reply to: "It is not the critic who counts
Yes!
Anyhoo, a few other thoughts.
I like the history in a guidebook. Ie, don't be afraid to put FA information or who bolted what. Some folks put up great routes. Some don't. And, a guidebook is nice for that info.
No sweat, Aaron.
Have fun and keep on sendin'...
Brian in SLC
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rrrADAM
Aug 6, 2003, 10:24 PM
Post #60 of 113
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If we do not live by the "Leave no trace" ethic, and alter the rock, then we are creating Access Issues.
If you think climbing a manufactured route is OK, then do it at the gym.
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gawd
Aug 6, 2003, 10:27 PM
Post #61 of 113
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Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 193
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dear faggots who chip or manufacture holds to suit their needs. there is no way you can justify altering any piece of stone ever. you are weak, you should be beaten and publicly ridiculed. if you are one of these sick and weak individuals, please pm so we can work out an arrangment.
i hope you all crater from your acts of ego stroking and desperation.
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roughster
Aug 6, 2003, 10:33 PM
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And here come the uniformed masses...
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jt512
Aug 6, 2003, 10:40 PM
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In reply to: If we do not live by the "Leave no trace" ethic, and alter the rock, then we are creating Access Issues.
This might be true at J Tree, but certainly not at sport crags like Frustration Creek or New Jack City. Many sport crags would be entirely unclimbable without extensive cleaning. The "leave no trace" ethic is incompatable with sport route development. Most sport routes, existing and future, are unclimbable in their natural state. Let's face reality. Sport climbing is a recreational activity. It uses a natural resource, rock. Sport climbing is no different than any other sport. You want to play golf, you have to change nature and build a golf course; you want to sport climb, you have to change nature and put up a sport route.
-Jay
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brianinslc
Aug 6, 2003, 10:45 PM
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In reply to: And here come the uniformed masses...
In reply to: Your own your own for this round by the looks of it.
Hmmm...not so lonely anymore, eh?
Maybe folks aren't "uniformed"? Especially now that you've, er, informed them how it really is...(!)... Maybe they just disagree (gasp!) with your style.
So, under the radar better, or sprayin' loud and proud about it?
Lord of the flys?
Route developement...impact. Some won't see it as a good thing...
Land manager to Aaron who is hanging with a power drill and hammering on a sharp hold: "hey, what you doin' up there?" Ditto a non climber passer by.
Low profile is the way. Paint yer hangers. Consider the ground at the staging area. Etc etc etc.
Guidebook writers who are also route developers will always have a perception of a conflict of interest in certain things...
Yee haa...
Brian in SLC
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rrrADAM
Aug 6, 2003, 10:46 PM
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Agreed Jay, bad wording...
Cleaning is one thing, but enhancing or creating a hold is another.
Think about 20 years ago, how many .13s were "whittled" down to .10s or .11s since they were "unclimbable". Those climbs were lowered to the ability of the FA at that time, when they could have gone today as they were before the tools came out.
My issue is with altering the rock to "make it go" for the FA.
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rockfax
Aug 6, 2003, 11:45 PM
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In reply to: Guidebook writers who are also route developers will always have a perception of a conflict of interest in certain things... Yee haa... Brian in SLC
Right on Brian.
I know of quite a few examples of guidebook writers who have bolted up lower grade routes to make their areas more attractive to the masses and so increase sales of their books.
I also know guidebook writers who work tirelessly safeguarding access to the cliffs so that they don't lose sales.
I don't have a problem with either and not just because its not as simple as I've just stated.
Mick
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rockprodigy
Aug 7, 2003, 12:43 AM
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In reply to: Where the fu(k (to use your word) are all these people who love one move wonders so much? Where are these ultra-cruxy climbs with people lined up waiting to get on them?
There's a guy at my gym that absolutely LOVES one-move-wonders...they're easier to RP. I prefer sustained routes, but I do get enjoyment out of the occasional on-move-wonder because *gasp* they're cool moves!
There's a route a Smith Rock called "Ring of Fire" (5.11d). It has one hard undercling move, the rest is probably 5.9. I bet more Smithh climbers have done that route as their first 11d than any other route in the park (it was mine). It's packed non-stop on weekends. If Brooke Sandahl had chosen to chip it, it would be another, indistict, boring 5.9.
So tell me...every time you do a one-move-wonder, you're thinking to yourself, "man someone should even that out with a Hilti..."
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rockprodigy
Aug 7, 2003, 12:45 AM
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In reply to: I have never once used the "FAist" distinction on any of them.
Of course you don't take credit for your routes! You don't want people to find out you're a chipper!
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 7, 2003, 12:57 AM
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The difference between cleaning and manufacturing holds can be a pretty thin line too. Look at Williamson for example, the more you clean, the bigger the jug you end up with. What some people call cleaning, other people would call chiseling.
I think the whole cleaning thing is more related to the steep choss that has become more popular relatively recently as opposed to sport climbing in general. Granite like rock sport routes does not take much cleaning at all. Good solid limestone takes a minimal amount of cleaning also.
As far as I have seen the majority of chiseling has taken place in the last 15 years and mostly involved taking 13+/14’s down to easy 13’s. For the most part it was relative to how strong the people doing the fa’s were at a particular crag.
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cthcrockclimber
Aug 7, 2003, 1:47 AM
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Anyone want to chisel me a set of stairs to the top of El Cap?
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rockprodigy
Aug 7, 2003, 2:03 AM
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Apparently my last statement (that was made in jest by the way) has offended some people (heaven forbid).
Humorless individuals take note:
It has been brought to my attention that Aaron is not a chipper by someone that claims to know...so now the wheels of gossip and hearsay keep 'a turnin'....
I wonder if it's possible to defend racism and not be racist yourself?...you'd have to be a pretty slick talker....
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roughster
Aug 7, 2003, 2:14 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: And here come the uniformed masses... In reply to: Your own your own for this round by the looks of it. Hmmm...not so lonely anymore, eh? Brian in SLC
Hey Brian if you want to lump yourself with people who call people Faggots, weak, and sick because of a difference in opinion feel free! I wouldn't necessarily say it does anything for peoples interpetation of who you are.
Just to make sure that people skipping to the end understand: I do not support chipping. I do support proper route cleaning.
Aaron
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roughster
Aug 7, 2003, 2:15 AM
Post #73 of 113
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In reply to: In reply to: I have never once used the "FAist" distinction on any of them. Of course you don't take credit for your routes! You don't want people to find out you're a chipper!
Yes another internet slanderer based upon nothing but pure conjecture. As for not taking credit for my routes, it just shows how fricking clueless you are about the issue. I have always stood by my routes from day one. I write free topo to them and send then to people pretty much everyday as many many people can attest to.
So much for your theory eh?
Aaron
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rockprodigy
Aug 7, 2003, 2:21 AM
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You can't have it both ways, either you take credit for your routes or you don't...which is it?
I take credit for my routes...there's no shame in it. You could even say it shows some level of responsibility...that is, if you dick it up, people will know who did it...I've got a few I've screwed up, and I'll admit to it. I try to do better next time.
Why are you defending chipping if you don't do it? Are you trying to keep your options open or something?
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caughtinside
Aug 7, 2003, 2:41 AM
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In reply to: I wonder if it's possible to defend racism and not be racist yourself?...you'd have to be a pretty slick talker....
As a side note, it is. Have you ever heard of the first amendment? Have you bothered to wonder why the KKK is still in existence? Racism is defended in the Bill of Rights.
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