P.S. Sorry. I was just curious about what it would be like to be as stupid as most people are on this site, so I decided to try out their logic.

you do find it amusing to see someone at the base of the crag with their belay card hanging from their harness, don't you?

there are precious few gym-trained climbers who I would let belay me without my substantially retraining them.

Jay

Aww.

J just called me precious

And WTF is that "sentence" supposed to mean????

Jay

P.S. Sorry. I was just curious about what it would be like to be as stupid as most people are on this site, so I decided to try out their logic.

It's a different environment inside and out, so they require different techniques.

Of course, but not as amusing as:

-someone getting out of their car in the crag parking lot with their helmet already on
-someone walking around J Tree with their entire rack still in the shopping bag from REI
-richardvg03 running around New Jack with a rack of cams

Jay

My point, which I apparently didn't articulate well, was that I take the same approach inside as I do outside. I think there are some basic responsibilities that the climber and belayor have, and those resposibilities are the same regardless of locale.

If I've missed anything then please correct me (which I'm sure you will Jay), but I feel that the belayor's resposibilities include: spotting the climber to the first clip, ensuring the rope doesn't get in the way of the climber, and ensuring that an appropriate amount of slack is in the system so that the climber doesn't deck and the climber gets as soft of a catch as possible after a fall. I approach belaying a leader with these responsibilities in mind each time I belay, regardless of my environment. How I accomplish this depends on the specific environment, of course. But I fail to see how a gym offers such a different experience that these responsibilities change from belaying outside to inside. For me, it is the same approach. Of course I adjust according to my immediate environment, but I have yet to see a gym that offers obstacles that I can't find outside.


Really? So you'd belay your leader on a roof in the gym differently than on a roof outside? The way I look at it, if the only obstacle is a roof, I'd still belay the same way: with enough slack in the system to ensure that my climber avoided hitting his head on the way down. That's obviously a simplistic answer, as it is impossible to describe all belay techniques and possible obstacles that one could come across, but the resposibility of the belayor doesn't change. It's his responsibility to ensure that the leader doesn't get hurt as a result of inappropriate feeding of the route. I just can't see how that mindset / approach / techniques that you use to achieve that goal change when coming inside or going outside. There's just no excuse for not learning good, solid belay / catching skills that really should work inside or outside.

I guess folks have seen poor belaying in the gym. I guess I haven't been paying attention. Maybe my gym does a good job of policing that and I don't notice it as a result. Don't get me wrong, I've seen poor belaying in my gym, but I've never associated it with outdoor climbers not knowing how to belay inside. I've always associated it with poor belaying, period.

My point, which I apparently didn't articulate well, was that you're absolutely right. I was just playing around by make the kind of completely nonsensical arguments that the morons around here always throw at me.

Jay

I've still got a n00b question that I just can't get out of my head: why is indoor leading different from outdoor leading specifically?

Just to list off my points:
- I climb extensively both out and in
- I lead both out and in on a weekly basis
- I set routes at my local gym (some lead routes areas easy as 5.7)
- I lead belay according to my environment, regardless of whether I am out or in
- I try to use the same techniques out or in, and adjust to my environment if I need to. For example: if there is nothing above me and my leader falls, I will tend to jump a bit to give a softer catch. I do this inside and outside. For example (again): if there are obstacles that don't allow me to jump, then I give a little rope out as my leader falls to give a softer catch (inside and outside). For example (yet again): if my climber has obstacles such as a roof or corner that he could swing into, I take those obstacles into account and try to catch him in a way that would make his fall softer / safer (inside and outside).

Either way, I belay the same way. I also lead the same way when I am climbing, inside or out. I cannot imagine why anyone would separate inside and outside so much as to suggest that it would make a difference in why or at what level a person should lead at in while inside. Honestly, after years of climbing regularly inside and outside, I can't see what is so different.

PS - I'm not talking about the 5.10 rule. I talking about why inside leading is so different from outside leading.

Of course, but not as amusing as:

-someone getting out of their car in the crag parking lot with their helmet already on
-someone walking around J Tree with their entire rack still in the shopping bag from REI
-richardvg03 running around New Jack with a rack of cams

Jay

while good belayers adapt to the climb you dont see too many indoor bred belayers doing this.

As for the "toproping 5.10" requirement, whatever.

But to be honest, most lead routes in the gym will always be 5.9 and up,...