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mikedano
Jun 6, 2003, 7:05 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: It may be true that whoever put up a particular route expects the anchors to be worn down and they plan to replace them BUT HOW SHOULD I KNOW THAT???? This thread is really getting stupid, Mike, and I don't enjoy arguing for it's own sake. I'm trying to impart some information here, not win a high school debate. It is ok to lower off anchors to clean your draws. Anybody who has sport climbed for a while knows this. -Jay
You're mean and smell like cabbage.
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drkodos
Jun 6, 2003, 7:08 PM
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My mom dresses me funny....
extra Brady Bunch trousers is de riguer....
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mikedano
Jun 6, 2003, 7:21 PM
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In reply to: My mom dresses me funny.... extra Brady Bunch trousers is de riguer....
!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
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jt512
Jun 6, 2003, 7:28 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: It may be true that whoever put up a particular route expects the anchors to be worn down and they plan to replace them BUT HOW SHOULD I KNOW THAT???? This thread is really getting stupid, Mike, and I don't enjoy arguing for it's own sake. I'm trying to impart some information here, not win a high school debate. It is ok to lower off anchors to clean your draws. Anybody who has sport climbed for a while knows this. -Jay You're mean and smell like cabbage.
Actually, I'm elitist and have coffee-breath.
-Jay
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mhr2000
Jun 6, 2003, 7:56 PM
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By god I believe we actually agree on two things jt512.
You brought up a discussion about falling on ropes vs down climbing to save rope wear. Well duh... of course down climbing is ridiculous. I agree with you...the rope is there to catch you and yes the rope is a commodity, let it do it's job.
I also understand what you're saying about those who placed the anchors did so in the understanding that they are to be used for TRing and lowering and accept the job of maintaining them.
Now here is my comparison of the two. My rope is not used by hundreds of other people doing laps on it. However, the anchors will have to endure hundreds, if not thousands of people TRing and lowering on them. Again, I realize the anchor setters know this and accept this. I just figure if you have 200 (just a random #) routes in an area it would be a lot less maintainence hassle the longer you can make anchors last.
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timstich
Jun 7, 2003, 3:05 AM
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In reply to: FACT: Sport anchors are set up for convenience. FACT: Sport anchors are expected to wear out. FACT: The locals usually don't rappel. FACT: The locals replace the anchors when they wear out. FACT: At most sport crags the locals would prefer climbers -- especially newbies -- NOT to rappel. I'm out of this thread. There is nothing more I can say; it'll just be redundant. I've climbed at probably 20 different sport climbing areas, and have observed the gamut of practices for myself, but obviously, the trad climbers and newbies know more about sport climbing than I do. Knowledge is not elitism, but apparently it is possible to be so stupid that you can't tell the difference. -Jay
Everything Jay said is true. Sure, he's a bit of an arse, but recognize that he is merely relaying his observations. I can confirm the same observations at six sport climbing areas around the country and in Mexico. Don't let your dislike of the guy color your perceptions. Take a look and you'll see the same thing.
Now we all go climb, ja?
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pico23
Jun 7, 2003, 3:55 AM
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In reply to: By god I believe we actually agree on two things jt512. You brought up a discussion about falling on ropes vs down climbing to save rope wear. Well duh... of course down climbing is ridiculous. I agree with you...the rope is there to catch you and yes the rope is a commodity, let it do it's job.
Wow you didn't argue a point? I missed this, I assume you are talking about sport climbing? It was probably a good thread :roll:
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mhr2000
Jun 7, 2003, 4:07 AM
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In reply to: Wow you didn't argue a point? I missed this, I assume you are talking about sport climbing? It was probably a good thread :roll:
Huh?
If you are refering to the falling vs down climbing thread probably being good I wouldn't have any idea. jt512 brought it up a few pages back. I took no part in that thread and know nothing about it.
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pico23
Jun 7, 2003, 4:52 AM
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:roll:
In reply to: Huh?...{snip}...I wouldn't have any idea...{snip}...I...know nothing about it.
That's no suprise :wink: .
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mhr2000
Jun 9, 2003, 1:46 PM
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Well pico23 and jt512, since you two are so concerned about what I do and don't know and what I can and can't do, I'll fill you in on this weekend. I can honestly say without any doubt I prefer rapping to lowering. While on toprope (using our own draws) I just lowered, but after leading a route it just felt more complete to rappel. One reason is the satisfaction of getting myself up the route and getting myself down and only using the belayer as you do draws, for safety and backup. Second reason is I had control of my decent so stopping at the draws to remove them was much easier since I didn't need to communicate with the belayer. So you guys can go ahead lower all you want, but I'm going to stick with rappelling whenever possible.
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pico23
Jun 9, 2003, 3:00 PM
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In reply to: Well pico23 and jt512, since you two are so concerned about what I do and don't know and what I can and can't do, I'll fill you in on this weekend. I can honestly say without any doubt I prefer rapping to lowering. While on toprope (using our own draws) I just lowered, but after leading a route it just felt more complete to rappel. One reason is the satisfaction of getting myself up the route and getting myself down and only using the belayer as you do draws, for safety and backup. Second reason is I had control of my decent so stopping at the draws to remove them was much easier since I didn't need to communicate with the belayer. So you guys can go ahead lower all you want, but I'm going to stick with rappelling whenever possible.
Bravo!!!!! A standing O to you. Please feel free to post the my first lead thread that always comes with a first lead so we can properly pat you on the back for a job well done. I'd love to see pictures of your lead, I'm like a proud parent here, I'm sure JT feels the same.
In anycase, I never said I prefered to lower. I said there was nothing wrong with the last climber lowering on a sport route. As to cleaning your own draws on rappel, thats great. Eliminate the belayer and eliminate some of the risk. My only argument with that is if you can't trust your belayer to lower you and stop at the draws with simple commands then how can you trust them to follow more complicated commands or belay you while leading?? Generally I will not lead if I don't 100% trust the competency of my belayer but I will often top rope with the same spaz. Furthermore unless you are free soloing or soloing climbing is a team sport. My guess is you aren't really a team player. Personally, I feed off my partners abilities and knowledge and climb better because of it. If you don't trust your partners you will never accomplish much if you ever want to get past 1/2 pitch sport climbing. My other problem is how can you rappel on every route? Not all routes run plumb to anchors. If they traverse even 10 or 15 feet you are looking at a difficult rappel (if not unsafe and possibly impossible) to clean your draws. Good luck with that though. Eventually, you will figure out as I pointed out above there is almost never a 100% proper way to do something in climbing. Determining the proper system per climb or pitch is often what needs to be done. Being rigid in your text book climbing philosphy and ethics is probably going to get you hurt or killed. It must be nice to so confident and yet so ignorant and naieve.
Congrats on the lead though.
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jt512
Jun 9, 2003, 5:38 PM
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In reply to: ...I prefer rapping to lowering....I had control of my decent so stopping at the draws to remove them was much easier since I didn't need to communicate with the belayer.
That is one of the dumber things I've read on rc.com. It's not quite up to "execessive hangdogging destroys routes," though. That one set the bar so high that even Matt might have trouble beating it.
-Jay
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 9, 2003, 5:54 PM
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Hey Jay, here is another one that I would agree with mhr200 on.
hope you don't take this the wrong way, seems I am in devils advocate mode and maybe a little stick up for the noobie.
see ya
mhr: just make sure you don't drop yourself cleaning on your own, otherwise I often do that for the same reason
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jt512
Jun 9, 2003, 6:09 PM
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In reply to: Hey Jay, here is another one that I would agree with mhr200 on.
You agree that cleaning draws on rappel is "much easier because you don't have to communicate with your belyer"? Maybe because you are as soft-spoken as you are.
In general, cleaning draws is easier and safer while lowring than rappelling. I think you said so yourself in the other thread. Of course, Matt, is an expert, as usual, after leading one low-angle sport route. Communication with the belayer is straightforward -- "stop" "go" -- and should rarely be an issue.
-Jay
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shank
Jun 9, 2003, 6:29 PM
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In reply to: My other problem is how can you rappel on every route? Not all routes run plumb to anchors. If they traverse even 10 or 15 feet you are looking at a difficult rappel (if not unsafe and possibly impossible) to clean your draws.
As opposed to lowering the same route?
The draws are still out of reach and when rapping atleast you have a rope to pull yourself over to them, with a little help from your belayer of course.
As I stated before, I will lower and clean on my own gear, but when done with a route I will rap on the anchors.
It all boils down to personal preference. I don't want to be the arse that screws up the anchors, but if you do then go ahead. Until someone comes up to me and say "hey! This is my route and if you want to lower off the chains, I'll replace them later." then I'll be rapping.
Though I will agree some what with what Jay said earlier about people would rather Newbie lower. Rappeling is probably the most dangerous part of sport climbing, and the scariest to me.
Again, just my 2 cents.
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shank
Jun 9, 2003, 6:33 PM
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In reply to: after leading one low-angle sport route.
And I was wondering if you were there to see it or are you just ASSuming this?
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pico23
Jun 9, 2003, 7:00 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: My other problem is how can you rappel on every route? Not all routes run plumb to anchors. If they traverse even 10 or 15 feet you are looking at a difficult rappel (if not unsafe and possibly impossible) to clean your draws. As opposed to lowering the same route? The draws are still out of reach and when rapping atleast you have a rope to pull yourself over to them, with a little help from your belayer of course.
Not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing here? Basically I am saying rappeling might be a good and safe option when you are plum to the route at the belay anchors but it certainly makes more sense to lower if the route zig zags or traverses. You can clip into the other end of the rope as you lower and you will be pulled into the draws as you go down. Alternately you can just do a tension traverse to the draws (I strongly prefer not to use this option) If the belayer needs to help you on the rappel then just lower as they can deal with the rope management while you clean the route. To me the only advantage of the rappel is reducing wear on the anchors. Eliminating the belayer isn't really a concern of mine.
And Matt, as far as rappeling making the climb more complete. Don't make me sick with that bullsh!t. I've never heard anyone state or write that you had to rappel a route to complete the ascent. As a matter of fact most people prefer not to rappel from the top of a routes for many reasons if there are other options (such as walkoffs).
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 9, 2003, 7:20 PM
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Hey Jay,
I know that sometimes I prefer to clean draws off a vert route on rappel and one of the reasons is that I don't have to rely on someone else to stop me in the proper places.
In the context of mhr it might not be a good idea, but I wouldn't call it one of the dummer things I have ever heard of.
d.
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jt512
Jun 9, 2003, 7:47 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: after leading one low-angle sport route. And I was wondering if you were there to see it or are you just ASSuming this?
Neither.
-Jay
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 9, 2003, 9:06 PM
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In reply to: FACT: At most sport crags the locals would prefer climbers -- especially newbies -- NOT to rappel.
I am still trying to get an answer on why this is so?
A newbie that should not be rappeling should not be lowering someone either. Why the distinction? Is it better to have someone elses life on the line as you learn? Two noobies climbing together are safer if they lower each other then if they rappel? Or is it that is better for a new climber to practice lowering on a more experienced climber? Anywhichway I don't understand your argument.
Is it that you think the person is more likely to be lowered by someone with more experience?
Dan
dan
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pico23
Jun 9, 2003, 9:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: FACT: At most sport crags the locals would prefer climbers -- especially newbies -- NOT to rappel. A newbie that should not be rappeling should not be lowering someone either. Why the distinction?
Lowering is probably the most basic skill, unless you take someone off belay while enroute on lead (or less likely do to the system being weighted) while lowering I see absolutely no way anyone semi competent could lose control of a belay barring a catastrophic occurance or just plain stupidity. If it's stupidity your partner will eventually kill you anyway. But the factors that can take out the belayer can also be the same occurance that could easily happen to the rappeller and more often then not does happen to the rappeller. Again I don't know how you can lead and trust the belayer but not trust them to feed rope through a belay device while lowering. more deaths occur on rappel then any other single portion of climbing. Belaying and lowering are even taught at most gyms where many people first learn to climb. Rappeling on the other hand is not often taught. Furthermore, in order to rappel you need to anchor, untie, pull the rope through the anchor, lower the rope, place the belay device through the rope, and then unanchor. As you can clearly see you have added many steps to the other simple process of lowering off the anchors while remaining on belay at all times.
In reply to: Is it better to have someone elses life on the line as you learn? Two noobies climbing together are safer if they lower each other then if they rappel?
Yes I prefer having someone elses life on the line while I learn (just kidding but seriously everytime you climb yours and someone elses life is on the line and hopefully you are learning everytime you climb). And two noobies can do just fine if they have an ounce of common sense and yes read above for the answer to lowering being safer then rappeling in many instances.
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mhr2000
Jun 9, 2003, 9:44 PM
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I wish Shank was there for my first lead, sorry you had to take off so early man. Shank did belay me on my first mock lead while I was on toprope and gave me some pointers and also showed me how to setup for the rap. Later that day is when I did my first true lead and rapped down.
I'm not going to post a new thread about my first lead pico, give me a break. I posted it here because it fits this discussion.
Who said anything about rapping because I don't trust my belayer? What a f'd up twist of words that was. I had no issues with my belayer whatsoever.
Whats with the lowering is safer crap? Rapping was no more unsafe then leading in my opinion. Guess I should have told the guy, who works with Eric Ulner as a guide, that he should have been lowering and not rapping off the routes. I'm sure your experience jt512 outweighs this guy who's been guiding for years :roll: and he would have appreciated your vast knowledge.
Anyway, as stated before... I did prefer rapping over lowering so get over it jt512. And yes pico... for me it did make the climb more complete so you can get it over it as well.
Oh.. and yeah :roll: setting up for a rap was just sooooooo difficult pico, I should go get my masters in rocket science before ever attempting such a mind blowing and dangerous task.
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shank
Jun 9, 2003, 9:54 PM
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In reply to: the guy, who works with Eric Ulner as a guide
Was this Dave?
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pico23
Jun 9, 2003, 9:56 PM
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In reply to: Rapping was no more unsafe then leading in my opinion.
It's good to have an opinion but pick up a copy of Accidents NAM. Lots of rappel accidents. The lead belay system is redundant so it's safer, the rappel system is based in single points of failure. Redundancy is good in climbing, try not to forget that with all the hubris.
In reply to: Oh.. and yeah :roll: setting up for a rap was just sooooooo difficult, I should go get my masters in rocket science before ever attempting such a mind blowing and dangerous task.
I'd be impressed (with the masters in rocket science)...but rappeling is dangerous eventually you will realize that and once you do you will actually be safer out there.
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jt512
Jun 9, 2003, 9:57 PM
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In reply to: Rapping was no more unsafe then leading in my opinion.
Gee. That's a relevant comparison.
In reply to: Guess I should have told the guy, who works with Eric Ulner as a guide, that he should have been lowering and not rapping off the routes.
I'm sure that if that had been your "opinion" you would have not hesitated to speak up.
In reply to: I'm sure your experience jt512 outweighs this guy who's been guiding for years :roll: and he would have appreciated your vast knowledge.
I have not stated in this thread my opinion on whether lowering or rapping safer. Try reading what I say, not reading into it.
In reply to: Anyway, as stated before... I did prefer rapping over lowering so get over it jt512.
What makes you think I care which you preferred? [rhetorical]
In reply to: Oh.. and yeah :roll: setting up for a rap was just sooooooo difficult, I should go get my masters in rocket science before ever attempting such a mind blowing and dangerous task.
Shut up, you ignorant, arrogant asshole. A newbie at Wmson might have died last weekend, had a partner of mine, who was leading an adjacent route, not noticed she had set up her rappel device incorrectly, and traversed over to help her. He is, by the way, undoubtedly someone you would consider an "elitist Ahole."
-Jay
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