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colkurtz
Nov 11, 2004, 3:09 PM
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I’m reading a lot of good climbers trying real hard to embarrass themselves.
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asandh
Nov 11, 2004, 3:21 PM
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:roll:
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killclimbz
Nov 11, 2004, 3:27 PM
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Kudos to natas (or is it satan?) for posting a very explosive thread. It's funny the East coasters and Southern climbers are all against it, should never be done. With the rock down there, I would say it's true. Call it what you like, but don't come out and sport climb on the limestone in the West, because you are just condoning the practice if you do. Take a real stand.
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watchme
Nov 11, 2004, 4:04 PM
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Most of the limestone crags out here in WY have some degree of comfortizing. It is necessary or the rock at Wild Iris, Sinks, Ten Sleep, etc is just not climbable. In fact, places like American Fork need a lot more work than just comfortizing.
You folks from the northeast and south can talk all you want about the way we put up routes here in Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming, but you know what; we're not changing.
Furthermore, I've climbed in the northeast, and yes, the rock there doesn't need much cleaning or work.
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jcinco
Nov 11, 2004, 4:17 PM
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Hypocrites!
If any of you "anti-comfortizers" have ever actually sport-climbed outside, then you have pulled on comfortized holds... and liked it, dammit!
Just leave it to rc.com to get people to comment on things they know nothing about.
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colkurtz
Nov 11, 2004, 4:17 PM
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In reply to: How many of you Rough Tough "anti-comfortizers" are driving your nasty air polluting cars to the crags ?? thought so .... Get off your high horses, put your pack on your back and walk to those wonderful, pure, untouched holds .... :roll:
thought wrong....b.a...
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dingus
Nov 11, 2004, 4:29 PM
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I really don't care about comfortizing at all frankly. Not one bit. It isn't something I worry about or rail over.
There is a gray line between comfortizing and chipping though and those who out right say one is not the other are being intellectually dishonest.
Comfortizing IS chipping and we all know it. It's just been decided that this form of chipping is OK in select circumstances. Newsflash! Other climbers feel that way about other forms of chipping too.
And like someone else said, my opinion isn't going to change the situation one iota.
But leave that comfortizing ain't chipping pap on the bathroom floor. We all know its bull shit anyway.
DMT
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jcinco
Nov 11, 2004, 4:30 PM
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Allright, y'all have heard of cleaning a sport route, right?
Then try to explain to me the difference between these two scenarios that a FAist comes across on a route:
1) A loose, dinner-plate sized flake is on the route. The FAist prys it off with a crowbar. The rock scar from this will be a hold on the route, but the FAist must first clean up loose, sharp, shards of rock on the hold... so he takes a file to the remnant to clean it up.
2) A hold on the route consists of waterdropped razor blades . The FAist takes a file to the hold to dull the blades.
Since neither is creating a hold out of nothing, I see little difference.
(If you can't understand either of these situations, then you are either anti-sport climbing, or are living in denial.)
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dingus
Nov 11, 2004, 4:45 PM
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In reply to: (If you can't understand either of these situations, then you are either anti-sport climbing, or are living in denial.)
No disrespect jcinco but that is bull shit. I know plenty of climbers who are simply not approving of taking tools to stone, period. Whether they are anti-sport or living in denial is irrelevant.
I know religious types that are against divorce. Yet divorce still happens. Are they living in denial?
Why is it that when people have a strongly held opinion that differs from your own they are in denial?
DMT
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colkurtz
Nov 11, 2004, 4:46 PM
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i hate carrying the crobars to the crag
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photon
Nov 11, 2004, 4:51 PM
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"Comfortizing IS chipping and we all know it. It's just been decided that this form of chipping is OK in select circumstances. Newsflash! Other climbers feel that way about other forms of chipping too. "
Yeah like aid chipping, --God bless their hyppoctrical hearts
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on_sight_man
Nov 11, 2004, 5:08 PM
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In reply to: Then try to explain to me the difference 1) A loose, dinner-plate sized flake is on the route. The FAist prys it off with a crowbar. The rock scar from this will be a hold on the route, but the FAist must first clean up loose, sharp, shards of rock on the hold... so he takes a file to the remnant to clean it up. 2) A hold on the route consists of waterdropped razor blades . The FAist takes a file to the hold to dull the blades. Since neither is creating a hold out of nothing, I see little difference.
The difference is the word "Loose" in example number one and the intent of the FA. If YOU don't see this difference, YOU are in denial.
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micon
Nov 11, 2004, 5:08 PM
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If the rock is to uncomfortable then maybe you should try indoor climbing. Those holds are pretty comfortable.
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natas
Nov 11, 2004, 5:13 PM
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Satan who's satan. hey i'm the one putting the route up,i'm the one doing all the work. so i'll comortize as i see fit. if you don't like it, to feking bad, go somewhere else.
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killclimbz
Nov 11, 2004, 5:18 PM
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In reply to: Satan who's satan. hey i'm the one putting the route up,i'm the one doing all the work. so i'll comortize as i see fit. if you don't like it, to feking bad, go somewhere else.
lol, :lol: it was actually an obscure reference from the 80's skateboard scene. You did open a virtual Panadora's box with the questions. Of course people are going to be opinionated about this. In short I was just spelling your name backwards, Satan.....
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robmcc
Nov 11, 2004, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: Satan who's satan. hey i'm the one putting the route up,i'm the one doing all the work. so i'll comortize as i see fit. if you don't like it, to feking bad, go somewhere else.
If that's truly how you feel about it, what was your point in starting this thread?
:troll:?
If you ask for opinions, don't get your panties in a bunch when you get them.
Rob
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mbg
Nov 11, 2004, 5:28 PM
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I have no doubt that I have pulled on many a comfortized hold on great routes that I would do again without thinking twice. I'd also hop on an obviously manufactured line too if it looked like fun. (You could call all the polished classics out there inadvertently comfortized if you really wanted to.) I'm just not sure if this sort of practice should be publicly condoned; these days it’s going to happen but why encourage it?
If some of the logic stated here by those in favor of making holds less painful were carried over to the trad realm it would be ok to take a grinder to the inside of a granite crack if the crystals are cutting up your hands too much. :? Is comfortizing only accepted on sport routes or should the "ethic" be applied to all types of climbing? Where do you draw the line?
Yeah, it's up the FAist to make the call but I'd argue that it's also their responsibility to develop the route so it resembles the rock’s original state as much as possible. The routes I have cleaned and bolted had some loose stuff that occasionally revealed a new hold but this it was a matter of safety and not comfort for the folks who will do the routes in the future.
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dingus
Nov 11, 2004, 5:30 PM
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In reply to: "Comfortizing IS chipping and we all know it. It's just been decided that this form of chipping is OK in select circumstances. Newsflash! Other climbers feel that way about other forms of chipping too. " Yeah like aid chipping, --God bless their hyppoctrical hearts
Check out this route:
http://img27.exs.cx/...68/SerenityCrack.jpg
OK, this is from Yosemite, one of the home's of trad. This is one of the most popular, if not THE most popular 5.10 in the Valley, first pitch.
What do we see?
Every single hand and foot placement is chipped, every single one. By pins.
Every single protection opportunity is in a manufactured placement. Every one of them, entire 3 pitch climb.
And we have a lead climbing protection bolt RIGHT NEXT TO A CRACK. In Yosemite.
Now I don't hear much of anyone complaining about this climb. The guide characterizes it as 'elegant, but badly pin scarred.'
I hear a lot of moaning about bolts next to cracks. More than 50% of the leaders on this route clip that bolt, I assure you. Even some of the ones (not all though) who complain about bolts next to cracks.
The belays are all well bolted. So is the rap route.
They call this TRAD climbing, lol! Irony supreme that Tom Higgins made the first free ascent. It's sport climbing using trad pro is what it is.
Anyway, knocking off a few miniature limestone stalagmites seems to be a pretty benign activity when compared to this.
Does intent count? Serenity wasn't initially chipped to make it a free climb. But the results are amazing, an abortion of a crack that is perhaps the most popular climb of its grade in the Valley.
I like the route btw and have easly climbed it more than 10 times. I clip that bolt too, as I don't care for this broken leg thing.
But thats just me I guess.
DMT
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caughtinside
Nov 11, 2004, 5:36 PM
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trad is different. Cracks tend to not be as jagged. Plus, when you're jamming, you've got lots of skin surface area in the crack, not just the skin of your tips. And you can tape those hands.
It's different kinds of rock. Limestone and some of the volcanic stuff I've climbed on make JTree look polished. People need to be a little more open minded about applying thier adopted ethics across the board.
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natas
Nov 11, 2004, 5:41 PM
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I know who natas kaupus is. :twisted:
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natas
Nov 11, 2004, 5:51 PM
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Is drilling holes and putting bolts and hangers on the rock leaving it as natural as can be? Maybe not , but it's makes you feel alot more comfortable to have somthing between you and the ground.
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mbg
Nov 11, 2004, 6:04 PM
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In reply to: trad is different. Cracks tend to not be as jagged. Plus, when you're jamming, you've got lots of skin surface area in the crack, not just the skin of your tips. And you can tape those hands. It's different kinds of rock. Limestone and some of the volcanic stuff I've climbed on make JTree look polished. People need to be a little more open minded about applying thier adopted ethics across the board.
Of course trad is different, I was just playing the devil's advocate. I think what this is boiling down to is that most of the pro-comfort crowd thinks modifying holds is only ok on bolted limestone. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
In reply to: Is drilling holes and putting bolts and hangers on the rock leaving it as natural as can be? Maybe not , but it's makes you feel alot more comfortable to have somthing between you and the ground.
I think you missed my point on safety vs. comfort. You've made your opinion on the issue pretty clear though; chip away my friend.
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caughtinside
Nov 11, 2004, 6:08 PM
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In reply to: Of course trad is different, I was just playing the devil's advocate. I think what this is boiling down to is that most of the pro-comfort crowd thinks modifying holds is only ok on bolted limestone. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Can't say for sure. Limestone was the example because it's usually sharp. Don't really know until you touch the rock and feel the holds. I'm climbing on some super sharp volcanic stuff that needs a once over with the wire brush.
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photon
Nov 11, 2004, 6:49 PM
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dingus, I've done the route, pretty much the tip of the iceberg in Yos wouldn't you say. I'm not sure why icons like Bridwell and Robbins (I think they're great) are equated with clean ethics, considering how many bolts they've placed and all the holds they've chipped. Any of you "traddies" want to explain this?
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