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wjca
Jan 5, 2006, 7:37 PM
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In reply to: I've followed this thread for a day and believe that as both a user of Aliens and as a reseller, Mountain Gear should weigh in. Climbing Gear is "mission critical” and as such any concern about its safety should be taken seriously and resolved quickly. Take the past examples of BD, Metolius and other vendors putting out recalls for products where just a very small number of units were found to have flaws. We believe a manufacturer should act proactively to ensure the quality of their product. It's certainly better to be safe now, than sorry later. Though we do not believe the retailer should be responsible for a manufacturer’s quality control, there are instances where we believe it is in the best interest of climbing and our customers to be proactive. To this end Mountain Gear has sent an orange alien from each batch that we have in stock (1105 and 1205), as well as another alien of each size from any batches we have, for testing. We should have pull test results back early the week of Jan 9th and I commit that we will post our findings here. We do not have any cams stamped 805 but if you purchased an orange 805 stamped cam from Mountain Gear and would like us to exchange it we would be happy to do so. Let's try to get this resolved so we can all go back to trusting and using some of our favorite gear. Paul Fish President Mountain Gear, Inc paulf@mgear.com
This is what will cause action on the part of CCH.
Paul, regardless of the test results, as a mgear customer and attorney, I would strongly encourage you to consult with your own counsel before releasing any results of your testing here or in any other public fashion or forum.
Chris
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davidji
Jan 5, 2006, 7:51 PM
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In reply to: [When I made it I had not seen the current thread about the current failure....i was refering to the previous thread from awhile back where the poster was a former(and short time) employee who did have ulterior motives....My mistake for not looking through every thread on the site. |
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iamthewallress
Jan 5, 2006, 7:53 PM
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FWIW,
I had one of the incorrectly drilled orange aliens. I e-mailed CCH about it and heard nothing back from them.
I returned it to REI where I purchased it. I'm glad to hear that they've taken them off the shelf.
Aliens have outperformed everthing else when it comes to fitting in certain places and holding in odd aid configurations. I don't fall much, although I have fallen on aliens two different times. I've always taken for granted that they would be as strong as claimed, and I believe that in general they probably are.
That the CCH's response here (in conjunction with being totally ignored re: my defective item) has been to assume that the complaint was bogus rather than to err on the side of caution and look to correct a possible serious defect is really troubling to me.
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brianinslc
Jan 5, 2006, 7:54 PM
Post #104 of 246
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In reply to: Pity that the American Alpine Club does *nothing* to help ensure safe gear. It's shameful that there is no organization in the US that works to protect cliimbers.
Not true. The AAC supports the Safety Commision of the UIAA.
Mission of the UIAA Safety Commission:
To minimise accidents in mountaineering and climbing by:
- Developing standards for mountaineering and climbing equipment to minimise accidents caused by equipment failure or unsafe design.
- Analysing the market for mountaineering and climbing equipment to determine if the existing standards should be revised.
- Reviewing mountaineering and climbing accidents to determine if existing standards are at a high enough level and, where necessary, to modify them.
- Accrediting laboratories that tests mountaineering and climbing equipment to ensure that the test results are in accordance with UIAA standards.
AAC also publishes ANAM. They also have a Safety Committee and a Medical Committee.
AAC doesn't need your pity, but they could use your help...(how's that for a sales pitch? Ha ha...).
FYI.
Paul, hope to see you in NH at the annual meeting (that flask you put out has been a big hit, pun intended). Cheers!
Brian in SLC
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clayman
Jan 5, 2006, 8:11 PM
Post #105 of 246
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In reply to: Pull testing one cam per batch is nice, but probably won't tell us much. I think visual inspection of all aliens is more important. I'd expect most--but not all--of us could spot an improperly brazed device.
maybe this has been stated already, but is the silver brazing material put into the "female" end of the cam first and then brazed or is the material added after the "male" end is inserted. If the former, it seems as if a visual inspection would reveal nothing. You'd have to use some non-destructive diagnostic test (ie ultrasound) to determine the quality of the braze. Again I have no idea how these things are put together.
cl
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daithi
Jan 5, 2006, 8:15 PM
Post #106 of 246
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What happens when technical people dabble in public relations....
In reply to: The Silver brazed connections on Aliens are made by experienced ,skilled people who take great care in the quality of the braze. The accusations being made on this site are quite serious . An examination by a certified metallurgical lab on the device in question is necessary in order to prove or disprove the claims made regarding alleged failure of the brazed connection. Without an actual report by a lab we will assume this is a staged hoax. The cable on a 1.5 orange alien will hold over 3500 pounds, far more force than a falling climber could ever generate. When tested on a machine the cable will break ,not pull out of the cable eye. David Waggoner at CCH
Considering someone could have potentially died, because one of your products failed to match its specification, maybe a bit more sensitivity was in order. This is regardless of whether this turns out to be a hoax or not. You are expressing the opinions of your company not just you as an individual. I'm afraid it cast your company in a very bad light.
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tradgal
Jan 5, 2006, 8:28 PM
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Edited because I may have misunderstood CCH's website wording...
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dudemanbu
Jan 5, 2006, 8:33 PM
Post #108 of 246
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Trad girl, in my interpretation, the main cable is brazed, and the other connections (trigger wires/ loop connecting to the sling) are swaged.
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nuts_r_us
Jan 5, 2006, 8:37 PM
Post #109 of 246
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In reply to: The Silver brazed connections on Aliens are made by experienced ,skilled people who take great care in the quality of the braze. The accusations being made on this site are quite serious . An examination by a certified metallurgical lab on the device in question is necessary in order to prove or disprove the claims made regarding alleged failure of the brazed connection. Without an actual report by a lab we will assume this is a staged hoax. The cable on a 1.5 orange alien will hold over 3500 pounds, far more force than a falling climber could ever generate. When tested on a machine the cable will break ,not pull out of the cable eye. David Waggoner at CCH
Fine, dickweed. No more Aliens for me. Good luck with your business.
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dirtineye
Jan 5, 2006, 8:38 PM
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Once upon a time I ran several businesses, including some of my own, and even manufactured tools & parts for a national distributor.
If I had handled a customer problem the way CCH has with their response, I would have lost business or been fired or both.
Maybe the CCH guy will notice that he had the backing of aliens lovers at the beginning of hte other thread, but since the CCH response, some of that backing has dissipated.
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nuts_r_us
Jan 5, 2006, 8:40 PM
Post #111 of 246
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In reply to: The Silver brazed connections on Aliens are made by experienced ,skilled people who take great care in the quality of the braze. The accusations being made on this site are quite serious . An examination by a certified metallurgical lab on the device in question is necessary in order to prove or disprove the claims made regarding alleged failure of the brazed connection. Without an actual report by a lab we will assume this is a staged hoax. The cable on a 1.5 orange alien will hold over 3500 pounds, far more force than a falling climber could ever generate. When tested on a machine the cable will break ,not pull out of the cable eye. David Waggoner at CCH
Okay Dave. Your inappropriate response has cost you one customer. My guess is it has cost more than one, but I only speak for myself. There are plenty of cam companies and your cams are not *that* unique. Good luck with your business. Post up again if you wish to alter your response and I will read it and decide whether forgiveness is in order.
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qulith
Jan 5, 2006, 8:44 PM
Post #112 of 246
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In reply to: According to CCH website, the connection is swaged. That is my interpretation anyway. Anyone else take that differently? The eye fitting is brazed to the braided wire and that is swaged to the female part???
The swage is where the wire is connected back to itself (at the top of the thunb loop).
Brazing is used to connect the wire into the head of the cam.
In reply to: Brazing is a method of joining two pieces of metal together with a third, molten filler metal. The joint area is heated above the melting point of the filler metal but below the melting point of the metals being joined; the molten filler metal flows into the gap between the other two metal pieces by capillary action and forms a strong metallurgical bond as it cools.
From: http://www.inductionatmospheres.com/brazing_overview.html
I have been trying to learn a little about brazing and its strengths and weaknesses due to these discussions. Can someone knowledgeable please let us know how to inspect a brazed joint? Also how easily can this process be done improperly? Is it a pretty straight forward procedure for a trained person or is there a high chance for operator error if they are not focused?
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clayman
Jan 5, 2006, 8:47 PM
Post #113 of 246
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In reply to: Trad girl, in my interpretation, the main cable is brazed, and the other connections (trigger wires/ loop connecting to the sling) are swaged.
Can someone explain the difference between brazing and soldering?
Also, I still don't see how you're going the visually check these things out, the part that needs checking is hidden, right? Strength testing would seem more appropiate.
cl
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roy_hinkley_jr
Jan 5, 2006, 8:59 PM
Post #114 of 246
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In reply to: Not true. The AAC supports the Safety Commision of the UIAA. AAC also publishes ANAM. They also have a Safety Committee and a Medical Committee.
"Supports" as in the AAC has one unpaid volunteer who occassionally goes to the meetings in Europe. They do no testing. They do no work on the behalf of companies or consumers. They publish no articles on gear safety. But they have a sweet library that nobody uses and a good annual party.
ANAM has its own sets of problems (weak reporting, heavily biased editing) but that's a different issue.
Agree with other comments that random sampling by MGear is a nice jesture but won't prove/disprove anything and may come back to bite them.
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dirtineye
Jan 5, 2006, 9:03 PM
Post #115 of 246
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In reply to: I have been trying to learn a little about brazing and its strengths and weaknesses due to these discussions. Can someone knowledgeable please let us know how to inspect a brazed joint? Also how easily can this process be done improperly? Is it a pretty straight forward procedure for a trained person or is there a high chance for operator error if they are not focused?
http://www.uncoverthenet.com/gsearch.php?q=induction%20brazing
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qulith
Jan 5, 2006, 9:15 PM
Post #116 of 246
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In reply to: In reply to: I have been trying to learn a little about brazing and its strengths and weaknesses due to these discussions. Can someone knowledgeable please let us know how to inspect a brazed joint? Also how easily can this process be done improperly? Is it a pretty straight forward procedure for a trained person or is there a high chance for operator error if they are not focused? http://www.uncoverthenet.com/gsearch.php?q=induction%20brazing
Thanks. I still can't find a good source for detailed information about silver brazing. Most of the information that is returned by search engines is for contractors and businesses selling equipment.
Still the best site I found was the one I posted earlier that was a very basic overview of brazing.
I am still looking for more information on the subject if anyone can provide it.
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fear
Jan 5, 2006, 9:24 PM
Post #117 of 246
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In reply to: In reply to: Trad girl, in my interpretation, the main cable is brazed, and the other connections (trigger wires/ loop connecting to the sling) are swaged. Can someone explain the difference between brazing and soldering? Also, I still don't see how you're going the visually check these things out, the part that needs checking is hidden, right? Strength testing would seem more appropiate. cl
I've done a bit of welding and brazing for a few years. As a hobby though...
Brazing is essentially soldering at a much higher temperature. In both brazing and soldering the bond between the two pieces is relying on the capillary action of the solder/braze material which is sometimes an alloy with silver in it. Hence "Silver brazed".... Properly brazed materials are VERY strong and can be stronger than the two metals that are joined.
The problem is, just like welding, that joint prep is key. In brazing you want a VERY thin layer of braze filler in the joint. Too "thick" and the braze will be crap. Too thin isn't good either although that's less of a problem. You also don't want too much or too little flux. With no tiny hole on top of the piece the cable is seated in I'd imagine that you could have too much flux and end up cooking it, trapping it, creating those odd looking voids that are evident on the soldered end of the cable in the pictures....
There would be no way that I know of to inspecting a suspect alien since you can't see a thing....
But I'm just a hack. We need a pro for this....
-Fear
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fear
Jan 5, 2006, 9:29 PM
Post #118 of 246
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In reply to: In reply to: Trad girl, in my interpretation, the main cable is brazed, and the other connections (trigger wires/ loop connecting to the sling) are swaged. Can someone explain the difference between brazing and soldering? Also, I still don't see how you're going the visually check these things out, the part that needs checking is hidden, right? Strength testing would seem more appropiate. cl
I've done a bit of welding and brazing for a few years. As a hobby though...
Brazing is essentially soldering at a much higher temperature. In both brazing and soldering the bond between the two pieces is relying on the capillary action of the solder/braze material which is sometimes an alloy with silver in it. Hence "Silver brazed".... Properly brazed materials are VERY strong and can be stronger than the two metals that are joined.
The problem is, just like welding, that joint prep is key. In brazing you want a VERY thin layer of braze filler in the joint. Too "thick" and the braze will be crap. Too thin isn't good either although that's less of a problem. You also don't want too much or too little flux. With no tiny hole on top of the piece the cable is seated in I'd imagine that you could have too much flux and end up cooking it, trapping it, creating those odd looking voids that are evident on the soldered end of the cable in the pictures....
There would be no way that I know of to inspecting a suspect alien since you can't see a thing....
But I'm just a hack. We need a pro for this....
-Fear
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timm
Jan 5, 2006, 9:48 PM
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In reply to: To this end Mountain Gear has sent an orange alien from each batch that we have in stock (1105 and 1205), as well as another alien of each size from any batches we have, for testing. We should have pull test results back early the week of Jan 9th and I commit that we will post our findings here. We do not have any cams stamped 805 but if you purchased an orange 805 stamped cam from Mountain Gear and would like us to exchange it we would be happy to do so.
I had recently purchased 4 sets of aliens from two different retailiers (not mgear and not rei) and all are at present unused. The manufacture dates on them range from 0605 to 1105 with about half being marked 0805 (just my luck).
Since I'm sure as heck not going to climb on them now, I am willing to donate some of the 0805 aliens to someone that has access to a pull machine for further testing as long as they are willing to share the results publicly.
mgear_pres or maldaly, if you are interested, PM me.
Up to my a@@ in useless aliens,
Tim
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gyngve
Jan 5, 2006, 9:51 PM
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In reply to: Pity that the American Alpine Club does *nothing* to help ensure safe gear. It's shameful that there is no organization in the US that works to protect cliimbers.
You mean Accidents in North American Mountaineering is purely for the dark humor?
Do you suppose that Americans don't participate in the UIAA?
I hear that ASCA organization just eats donuts all day long.
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csgambill
Jan 5, 2006, 10:14 PM
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In an earlier post I had asked people who have contacted CCH to post the results of their conversations. I've been keeping a fairly close eye on these threads and have not seen any posts conveying such information. So, I decided to contact CCH myself. I just got off the phone with Dave at CCH who verified that cchaliens does in fact represent CCH.
I've also read some reports that CCH has poor customer service. When I initially contacted CCH Dave was unavailable, so I left a message and was told that Dave would call me back within an hour. Lo and behold, 1/2 hour - 45 min later, he called me back. He believes strongly in his product and has confidence in his brazer. I believe that it is possible for even the best of us to make the occasional mistake. Dave also gave me some other interesting information. He stated that he has NOT been contacted by the person who made the claim that the cam failed. Dave also stated that if the OP were to contact him and pursue this issue with CCH, CCH would basically take the action I stated they should in my prior post. -He did not cite my post-
I have to run to catch a train at the moment, but will post more of my thoughts later.
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outdoorsie
Jan 5, 2006, 10:19 PM
Post #122 of 246
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In reply to: I've followed this thread for a day and believe that as both a user of Aliens and as a reseller, Mountain Gear should weigh in. Climbing Gear is "mission critical” and as such any concern about its safety should be taken seriously and resolved quickly. Take the past examples of BD, Metolius and other vendors putting out recalls for products where just a very small number of units were found to have flaws. We believe a manufacturer should act proactively to ensure the quality of their product. It's certainly better to be safe now, than sorry later. Though we do not believe the retailer should be responsible for a manufacturer’s quality control, there are instances where we believe it is in the best interest of climbing and our customers to be proactive. To this end Mountain Gear has sent an orange alien from each batch that we have in stock (1105 and 1205), as well as another alien of each size from any batches we have, for testing. We should have pull test results back early the week of Jan 9th and I commit that we will post our findings here. We do not have any cams stamped 805 but if you purchased an orange 805 stamped cam from Mountain Gear and would like us to exchange it we would be happy to do so. Let's try to get this resolved so we can all go back to trusting and using some of our favorite gear. Paul Fish President Mountain Gear, Inc paulf@mgear.com
This has greatly impressed me. I agree the sample size is small, but at least they are concerned and doing something about it! Hooray MGear!
I also wanted to add my name to the list of people who had been planning on supplementing my set of tcu's with aliens, and is now probably just going to buy C3s ... hopefully from Mountain Gear. 8^)
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scrapedape
Jan 5, 2006, 10:34 PM
Post #123 of 246
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The plot thickens...
In reply to: he has NOT been contacted by the person who made the claim that the cam failed.
The OP should probably call CCH as a number of folks have been suggesting already. Evidently his email has not been received. It would be pretty brazen of Dave to be telling folks he hasn't heard from this guy if he really has.
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bobruef
Jan 5, 2006, 10:40 PM
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In reply to: The plot thickens... In reply to: he has NOT been contacted by the person who made the claim that the cam failed. The OP should probably call CCH as a number of folks have been suggesting already. Evidently his email has not been received. It would be pretty brazen of Dave to be telling folks he hasn't heard from this guy if he really has.
will somebody please give scrapedape a trophy for the most cheezy, bad taste joke of the day?
...and the velveeta award goes to...
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clarki
Jan 5, 2006, 11:05 PM
Post #125 of 246
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In reply to: Dave also gave me some other interesting information. He stated that he has NOT been contacted by the person who made the claim that the cam failed. Dave also stated that if the OP were to contact him and pursue this issue with CCH, CCH would basically take the action I stated they should in my prior post. -He did not cite my post-
PTHBTHBTHBPTHBPTHB and a HIIIIIIYAA!! Looks like y'all been trolled something fierce.
I give the OP a solid T8 with a two point bonus for saying nothing while you tools ranted on for 8 pages in 2 days :lol:
Total: T 11 Congratulations sir, you rock.
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