dingus, I've done the route, pretty much the tip of the iceberg in Yos wouldn't you say. I'm not sure why icons like Bridwell and Robbins (I think they're great) are equated with clean ethics, considering how many bolts they've placed and all the holds they've chipped. Any of you "traddies" want to explain this?

If it cuts into your fingers, it's easier to hold on to.

No disrespect jcinco but that is bull s---. I know plenty of climbers who are simply not approving of taking tools to stone, period. Whether they are anti-sport or living in denial is irrelevant.

I know religious types that are against divorce. Yet divorce still happens. Are they living in denial?

Why is it that when people have a strongly held opinion that differs from your own they are in denial?

DMT

What I meant to say in that terse one sentence proclamation was that sport climbers who are against EVEN case #1 are living in denial, since taking crowbars or whatever to loose flakes is done on almost every sport route... period.

No disrespect jcinco but that is bull s---. I know plenty of climbers who are simply not approving of taking tools to stone, period. Whether they are anti-sport or living in denial is irrelevant.

I know religious types that are against divorce. Yet divorce still happens. Are they living in denial?

The difference is the word "Loose" in example number one and the intent of the FA. If YOU don't see this difference, YOU are in denial.

Okay Rockprodigy, here goes!

Guess what, I live in Utah, Southern Utah, and I have climbed on all of the sharp Limestone and Basalt and BLED on on the sharp limestone and basalt. Did I climb on comfortized holds? Yes. Did I know that they were comfortized holds? No, not until today when sadly I heard the ridiculous term comfortizing for the first time. Do I agree with comfortizing? ABSOLUTLEY NOT!

When someone decides to put up a route they should realize that they are going to have to clean some of the loose rock off. This is not only to protect themselves but also their belay in the event of a rock coming off and falling on them. But tell me, if a razor or crystal busts off a hold is get going to fall down and knock your belay out? Nope. What it might do is cut your finger. So what, grow up. Get some tape. For heavens sake if it is so deadly buy some of those moronic mad rock fingers nubs and let those protect your finger tips.

What a FA does when he decides to comfortize holds is remove the possibility of anyone ever climbing the route the way it was naturally formed. Yes, if you are going to put it up at all you should clean it so it does not represent a risk to yourselves or ignorant climbers (as I found out on LIMESTONE at Dutchmans Draw on a very poorly cleaned route. Rocks the size of footballs were literally coming off in my hands). But when the FA puts up a route and comfortizes the holds he removes the possibility for anyone wanting to climb it the original way. No I have not bolted a route yet, but what gives you the right to decide the nature of the rock before I get a chance too. For heavens sake I'm a college student right now and can't afford to put up routes! Should that mean the only holds I can use are comfortized ones because you bolted all the rock before I got a chance. Like as was said earlier if you can't climb on sharp holds leave them to someone that can or modify yourself in some way (Get better callluses, get tape, get those stupid madrock things) instead of modifying the rock.

In closing to this ridiculously long ramble with probably very poor grammar, spelling, and probably several points that will easily be dispelled as soon as someone else looks at it I would like to say leave the rock alone. If you are going to put up a route be responsible and clean it so ignorant people won't get hurt, but leave them with option to climb the climb as it was originally formed by God or Nature (Which ever you prefer). FA's should realize that the present climbing community and the future climbing community is trusting them to be the protecters of the rock and the ethics developers of tomorrow until they get a chance to enter into that area of responsibility. And yes, once again, I live in Utah. I climb on very sharp limestone and basalt and I have bled my fair share on it. Sadly I've climbed on comfortized holds and will keep climbing on them (if they are already it can't be put back in its original form sadly enough) but owing to my financial circumstances if I want to climb I have no other choice. I only pray we won't have to get land managers (the ones with the real power to make the decision) involved. Leave me some rock too you selfish Jerks! 8^)

Supe-- on one hand you want clean routes, ie, loose blocks being removed, and on the other hand, you want the FA to leave all the holds 100% as they found them?

Do you see the problem you have just created? It is a judgment call, and you can't make it unless you're there.

"Build your skill instead of improving the holds"

...but to make an existing one useable.

Removeing loose rock from a route is cleaning it. once the loose rock is gone everything else is chipping.

I guess what I was trying to say with my hideously long post is this: For me Death is an unacceptable outcome (by falling rocks the size of battle tanks or such the like) while having my finger cut open causes me to think A. I need to get my fingers stronger. B. I need to skip that hold. C. I need to work through the cut finger or D. I need to leave that climb to someone that can do one of the 3 afore mentioned things.

But for me to be up there and take out the old file would simply be lowering the climb to my level. I am very much against lowering climbs to the lowest common denominator accept for where it makes it so death is a rather remote outcome. I guess everyone has there own "accept for when's" but I should hope that we could avoid chipping, modifying, and "comfortizing" whenever possible. Even if it does mean the FA finds a different route to put up or gets some bleedin fingers.

You're wrong.
A) finger strength won't mean you won't get cut
B) you can't always skip the hold. What if EVERY hold is sharp?
C) working through a cut finger? That's going to be a challenge if you're actually climbing at your limit.
D) Better climbers than you won't touch a route that will leave them unable to climb while their fingers grow back.

It's not 'lowering the climb to your level' since cleaning holds doesn't make the climb technically easier. an 11b is still an 11b, it just depends on the number of tears you shed, and the drops of blood that will spill from your fingers. Personally, I'd like to be able to climb more than one route a week.

What's interesting about your post is the passion you feel about a subject you know very little about. You've done no FAs on sharp rock, and didn't even know holds were cleaned until this morning, but you presume to tell those of us who have what we should be doing.

Whats interesting about your post is you seem to think that only FA's should be able to decide the future of the rock and that the rest of us should blindly accept their decisions. I may not be putting up routes but does that rule out the possibility of me ever doing it? Wouldn't you rather have me learn now how to do it and enter into these type of discussions rather than having me learn afterwards I've stupidly bolted ever spare bit of face from Utah to China?

I'm not that worried about you bolting everything from here to china. Bolting is hard work, expensive, and takes a lot of time. If you're going to invest those things, chances are you have thought about what you are doing, and are interested in putting up quality routes. A quality route doesn't tear your fingers on every hold. I'm not saying there's no room for sharp holds, sometimes that's how it goes. But a route where every hold is likely to cut your fingers is just stupid, and won't get done by anyone, including harder climbers than you or I.

why bolt a climb that has sharp holds all the way up in the first place?