If I could make a climbing analogy, I would liken witnessing to this:

You walk up to the crag and see a 6-year-old halfway up an 11b, while his parents engage in oblivious conversation 10 feet away.

Wouldn't instinct be to say something? Now, theoretically, that kid could be the world's best climber warming up on a cakewalk. But let's say that you KNOW that there is a slopey, gravely topout and he is absolutely guranteed to fall. You'd offer some help, maybe a rope or some beta, but if he insisted against it, you would feel awful knowing he would learn the hard way.

To me, that is how we Christians see many people. Our intentions are good, and we're not trying to force you to do things a certain way. We're justing warning against a danger that is not obvious from most vantage points.

Just the mention of Christianity, brings about many different responses from people, so it is important to remember that the beautiful part of Christianity is not Christians, but Christ.

Also beautiful are the mountains He created. We can all enjoy those.

All you Christians who have posted on this topic seem to have a level head and realize that respecting your neighbors faith is part of the Christian faith (don't judge others, lest you be judged).

Now for my question:
1) Do you support the idea of teaching creationism or "intelligent design" in the classroom?

I think that prostelatizing in the classroom (no matter what faith) is dangerous. What would stop a teacher from saying that a purple dinosaur named Barney took some mud and made all the animals and people we know today? (that sounds strangely familiar).

Being a engineer/scientist, I feel that none of this creationism bull-honky has been verified and can never be verified.

LOL You might want to look into where all the traditions of the Catholic church really came from. I know Godly and unGodly Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, etc. You can't generalize.
Protestants protested for a reason. It wasn't because the Catholic church was righteous and Christlike. For example, why aren't priests allowed to marry, look up the church reasons, then dig around for the REAL reason. Look it up and get back to me. Then you'll see why rules made by men are useless, and impossible to follow (God wouldn't make a rule like that since he understands the desires of the human heart). Hence all the problems with deviant priests.

They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men Matthew 15:9

If you think you are somehow by default a better follower of Christ by being Catholic you might want to read your Bible a little more and believe what you're told in mass a little less. No one ever got to heaven by attending a certain church.

i think that if they can teach evolution, which is a THEORY, not proven fact, then yes, they should teach creationism. not neccesarily as fact, but at least as another theory.

If you know this, then you are one step closer to personal salvation

"You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake
You are the same decaying organic matter as everything else
We are all part of the same compost heap
We are the all singing, all dancing, crap of the world"

Screw God and screw being nice to you religious folks.

-A Baby was put into microwave to stop crying, the mother had the idea that her baby would understand from the electro-magnetic waves that heated her body up from the inside out, that crying was annoying the mother and it would be a good idea to stop the crying.

The result was that the body acted as a insulator, electrons began to slow their flow within the body causing re-orientation and distortions of permanent dipoles, which results in the rise in heating. The first thing when a person/baby is heated in this fashion (from the inside out) is that the nitrogen separates from the blood cells causing the skin to expand away from the body. In a situation like a microwave which utilizes reverse polymerization, the skin releases an adhesive bonding chemical on the top layer, which when the skin is stretched far enough to touch the edges of the microwave it almost immediatley bonds to the microwave. This first causes the skinning of the baby. Not complete skinning, but torn patches of skin. It has been researched and estimated at this time the child was very much alive. Next comes the rupture of all veins in the body from the extreme heat. At this point the baby should be dying from from the lost of blood, but it may experience the splitting of a few dozen or so veins if the microwave was set on a lower power. Its not done yet, the fat of the baby is at this point sizzling which combined with the heat from the microwave cooks the muscle of the baby, just like a juicy steak. From the cooking of the muscles immediate dehydration occurs where the tendons, muscle, ligaments, etc... shrink considerably in size. Pulling the fingers to dig into the palm, the chin of the face to hit its chest snapping the top bones of the soft vertabra, pulling the baby into a ball which can almost look like the fetal position inside the womb, excluding the skinned, burned and disfigured quality of the baby. If you doubt me do some research.

What would Jesus not do?

Lets take a look see....hmmm do i feel good about myself for putting down others religions...no...wait i never did, it seems u like ur frowning and feeling "Sad" for those who dont believe, id have to say that bothers me alot. People feeling sad for me cause i dont believe...fuck if i wanted u to i wouldnt, in a general sense anyway...im confused as to how justify faith with yuor ignorance was used....i dont know much about religion so i am pretty ignorant, but following on the teachings of something you do NOT know happened...not sure if its true...isnt that ignorant? hmmmm, a waste of time to me, but whatev, the real thing is...isnt religion something we make up as human kind goes on? it seems many religions have been constantly made up, helps keep peace, give excuse to attack, alot of power, if i could do one thing i think i would get rid of the whole dam world religion crap, make everyone worship a cardboard box...but i guess there would be some deviants that would say the real god is the tape on the box, stupid people. i wish i were a cat:(

Wow, quite the thread here. I've seen some rather sloppy logic from both sides, most from people that talk of their reasoning being obvious, inescapable, and so on. If you wish to talk of logical debate, people, please, state your given assumptions, then provide your reasoning, and the conclusion to be drawn from your reasoning. Some of the "logic" presented here has been frighteningly flawed. Whether you realize it or not, no matter what side of this argument you're on, all of us have made some basic assumptions and have faith that those assumptions are correct. At the core of any belief system, I think you will find something that you can not defend without saying "I believe this because I believe it." Whether you're an atheist, an agnostic, a Christian, a Wiccan, a Satanist, or a something-I-haven't-heard-of-ist, there is a root assumption for each of us that defies logic. This explains to me, at least, why religious debates get so heated so often. Other challenge that core belief that is inherently unprovable. That said, I congradulate everyone involved in this thread who has challenged my mind with thoughtful, level-headed discussion.
To those who choose to rant and ridicule others, grow up. That said, here's what I believe, for what it's worth.
I believe that God created the world as told in the Bible, that he sent Jesus Christ, His son, to pay for our sins so we could be restored to the relationship He wanted with us before people screwed things up. I think everyone's a sinner - just look at this jacked-up place we call earth for evidence of that (amazing we haven't killed everyone and everything on this planet yet). I don't think I'm holier-than-thou or anyone else because of this belief. On the contrary, I think I'm just another poor, dumb bastard that stumbled onto something good and hopes to help other people find the good stuff too. I think if I live my life the way the God of the Bible says He wants me to, then other people will find the good life I've found without me having to preach or rant or condemn. Do I succeed in living this good, pure life I profess to have found? I wish. But my failures don't excuse me from my responsibility to keep trying to live as God wants me to live. What if the atheists are right? Then I've tried to live a life free from stealing and murdering and hate, all with no heavenly reward awaiting me when I die, just the blackness of death. But then, wouldn't it be nice if more people in this screwed-up world tried living like that? Sure couldn't hurt to have a little less hate around. So, if you think I'm wrong, so be it, but at least let me live by my beliefs in peace. And if you're looking for answers to life's questions, maybe the ones I've found will help you too. The way I see it, it doesn't hurt to keep an ear open to what others have to say. I personally don't believe the theory of evolution, but I keep an ear open to what its supporters have to say. Nobody was around to observe the start of the universe, so both creation and evolution supporters can simply go off of the evidence left behind. There are some viable theories supporting Biblical accounts, and there's some problems with evolution. Maybe God directed evolution. All I know is that when I look at the world around me, I see evidence of intelligent design. Enough that it makes me as an engineer jealous of whoever designed hummingbirds and spider webs and elbows and a hundred commonplace natural objects. The mechanical engineering that confronts me in nature really amazes me; I sure couldn't come up designs as simple, elegant, and functional as those I see in nature. So even if the theory of evolution is proven to such a degree that it becomes the law of evolution, I'd still tend to lean toward a directing force behind it all, one I call God. So there, Christianity seems to make the sense to me. And no, I don't defend atrocities that have been done supposedly in the name of Christ (the Crusades, etc), but don't forget people, humans have shown themselves perfectly capable of committing atrocities all on their own and in combination with quite a few different beliefs. Don't lump all bad things on Christians as some previous posters have seemed to say. I guess that's all I wanted to address from these last 8 pages of posts. Ive typed way too long already, and I don't think this discussion will ever really end, so I'll shut up now, and let you people carry on.

Jason

dude what the heck is wrong with you? that was uncalled for and disgusting. that is just about as offensive as can be, not because of my beliefs, but because i am a human being.

I am not sure whats wrong with me, maybe I'm going insane but if I recognize that I am going crazy than I can't be going insane, so by circular conclusion I am perfectly sane, whats wrong with you?? You think that was offensive, you have no idea how low I can go, I have the world's sickness for my inspiration, all you have is your imaginary friend.

My father = God
My father = missing
God = missing
Never found my father or God
I killed a man and felt something, maybe that feeling is what God wants me to feel. I'll have to repeat it to know for sure

Please people, lets get out and go climbing!

:lol: Happyfra, you just don’t have a clue what you are talking about; you don’t understand epistemology, ad-hoc reasoning, or creationism (which is not a subject traditionally studied by epistemologists anyway).

Because the issues being argued here are much more complicated than they are being presented, I’ll refrain from offering any arguments of my own.

I’ll just say that GOD IS AWESOME! I think religious climbing groups are a great idea. :D

evolution does have scientific evidence backing it up.

Although I like evolution and personally think it's right on the money, it doesn't change the fact that it's unverified, and thus in the same boat as creationism, cold fusion, and antigravity.

the precision of the universe by no means implies a requirement for an intelligent designer. by that same argument, you could say that our intelligent designer required an intelligent designer as well. and this could go on ad infinitum.

In explaining this observation, the hypothesis that there was some intelligent design involved is not unreasonable.