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hyhuu
Jun 5, 2008, 7:30 PM
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I say let's throw in mathematic, science and heck, even religion into the discussion as well. After all, those were established mostly by men in the earlier day.
Men standards and values??? We are talking about rock climbing right? I didn't know men has that much influences on how the rocks are formed and should be climbed.
Last time I checked, the gap in climbing difficulties between genders is rather small and with the current progression, it will be a non-factor soon so I don't know what the fuss is all about.
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caughtinside
Jun 5, 2008, 7:38 PM
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chadnsc wrote: I am quite aware of sexism and have encountered it personally but not between local climbers. I had women walking past our indoor climbing gym comment on how my harness accentuated my ‘package’ while I hung on a rope setting routes. The women who made the comment (a mother and daughter) though this was form of praise, I thought it was rude and sexist. I told the women so and they apologized.
Oh man chad, that story would be really funny if it werent' so sad. OMG you were treated like a piece of meat!!!
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chadnsc
Jun 5, 2008, 7:42 PM
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Actually it was rather disturbing since the mother and underage daughter where saying it.
Not fun.
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caughtinside
Jun 5, 2008, 7:47 PM
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You felt used and violated by the jailbait??
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lhwang
Jun 5, 2008, 7:54 PM
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Are you familiar with the essay "White privilege: unpacking the invisible knapsack"? The basic premise is that privilege exists in our society, that is to say, members of certain groups get privileges that they haven't earned. Ironically the people who are most likely to deny that such privilege exists are those who benefit from it. A similar concept of "male privilege" exists, too. (BTW I'm not attacking you or anything like that... I do realize that in your post you acknowledge that sexism exists. I'm just replying to your post because it made me think of the invisible knapsack).
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chadnsc
Jun 5, 2008, 8:04 PM
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Ihwang,
That is a very interesting essay, thanks for telling us about it!
CIS,
I was in no way was violated by either of them.
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lena_chita
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Jun 5, 2008, 8:33 PM
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chadnsc wrote: To be honest I've never ran into sexism while climbing, and I'm glad for it! I suppose it has to do with where I live and the lower number of climbers that make up our climbing community.
It is possible that you never ran into it, but more likely that you have not seen it b/c you are not sensitized to it. You come across as a nice guy, and I am sure you sincerely believe that you haven't witnessed sexism in climbing. Since we don't have shared experiences to look at, I can't really know.
I don't think that there is more of it in climbing than in everyday life... it is certainly not something I have to deal with on a daily basis, but to say that it is absent would be a very far stretch. Zenelke seems to have experienced much more of it than I ever had. I remember a thread about it a while ago.
But I do know that it took multiple occasions for me to realize that as a white person I just don't notice things that disturb my African-American friends, for example. We are both there, we both witness something, but they read more into it than I do.
I think the same thing is true to some extent when a man looks at how much sexism women are dealing with.
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chadnsc
Jun 5, 2008, 8:40 PM
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This very well may be true. I am not known for reading very far into things. I tend to take encounters at face value which can be good and bad.
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livvy
Jun 5, 2008, 9:55 PM
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Is that the surf cover? Agreed!
On a separate note, after reading the rest of the thread I think one thing that would be useful is if the average woman had the same ego as the average male. I know many won't agree with me and I'm not usually a proponent of urging women to do things more like men to succeed rather than reinventing the definition of success. But in this case, I do think we could learn.
If we had more bulletproof egos we wouldn't have a problem with the comments. If you KNOW you are a fantastic person, if you KNOW you rock, then you care less about the little things and about others perceptions and comments.
Other climber: "sexist comment"
Woman: (internally: Given that I freakin rock...) "silly rabbit"
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camhead
Jun 6, 2008, 12:42 PM
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Two observations on gender and climbing double standards, from a "devil's advocate" point of view...
1.
It is way easier for a female climber than a male climber to be a toprope leach. If a male were to climb mostly or all topropes/following, he would undoubtedly be heckled and thought less of by other climbers (male and female) climbers. Yet, I have seen dozens of women who do this, and who get patronizng encouragement from their dates, or from guys who find them attracted, as they fall their way up some TR climb. Why?
2.
I've seen a bit of grade inflation in the mags regarding women climbers. When Steph Davis just soloed Castleton's North Face (11a), Alpinist gave it an 11b. When Rodden tore it up several years ago at Indian Creek, R&I reported her sends as "Swedin Ringle, 12c" and "Digital Readout, 12d," neither of which has ever been the consensus for these routes.*
*This grade inflation seems only to be in mags. There have been a few routes downgraded by egotistical FA's AFTER they saw a female ascent: "Omaha Beach" at the Red after Katie Brown onsighted it, for example.
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lena_chita
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Jun 6, 2008, 1:57 PM
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camhead wrote: 1. It is way easier for a female climber than a male climber to be a toprope leach. If a male were to climb mostly or all topropes/following, he would undoubtedly be heckled and thought less of by other climbers (male and female) climbers. Yet, I have seen dozens of women who do this, and who get patronizng encouragement from their dates, or from guys who find them attracted, as they fall their way up some TR climb. Why?.
Agree. but I think you answered your own question pretty much. Women do it more because it is more culturally acceptable for them to do so. And also because from very early age girls are conditioned to be followers, not leaders, encouraged to be safe, not daring. I don't know if there is some biology to it, too-- but my observation is that I've met a lot of guys who would take big whippers just for the sake of it-- e.g. kiss the chains and take a ride instead of clipping. I don't know any girls who do it-- even girls who push the limit and climb until falling rather than saying 'take' just accept those falls as inevitable thing, instead of getting an active enjoyment out of it like some guys do.
camhead wrote: 2. I've seen a bit of grade inflation in the mags regarding women climbers. When Steph Davis just soloed Castleton's North Face (11a), Alpinist gave it an 11b. When Rodden tore it up several years ago at Indian Creek, R&I reported her sends as "Swedin Ringle, 12c" and "Digital Readout, 12d," neither of which has ever been the consensus for these routes.* *This grade inflation seems only to be in mags. There have been a few routes downgraded by egotistical FA's AFTER they saw a female ascent: "Omaha Beach" at the Red after Katie Brown onsighted it, for example.
Interesting. Ego games are inevitable, I suppose.
I hope the grade inflation and retroactive down-grading after first female ascents are exceptions ,rather than a rule
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clausti
Jun 6, 2008, 3:32 PM
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lena_chita wrote: kiss the chains and take a ride instead of clipping. I don't know any girls who do it-- even girls who push the limit and climb until falling rather than saying 'take' just accept those falls as inevitable thing, instead of getting an active enjoyment out of it like some guys do.
you and me will go to the obed and we will kiss chains.
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clee03m
Jun 6, 2008, 4:03 PM
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camhead wrote: 1. It is way easier for a female climber than a male climber to be a toprope leach. If a male were to climb mostly or all topropes/following, he would undoubtedly be heckled and thought less of by other climbers (male and female) climbers. Yet, I have seen dozens of women who do this, and who get patronizng encouragement from their dates, or from guys who find them attracted, as they fall their way up some TR climb. Why? In reply to: Agree with Lena that this is exactly what we are talking about. I have a climbing partner here who is awesome, but first two times we climbed, he expressed his surprise when I asked him to pull the rope so I can lead. He told me he is used to girls just top roping. Is that sexist? Of course. Why lead when you can TR? For the same reason why anyone would lead. I don't chase grades, I don't climb for recognition (hell, I am not good enough that if I did either I wouldn't be climbing), and yeah, I climb for myself. But when sexism slaps me in the face from time to time, a wee bit hard to ignore it.
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lena_chita
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Jun 6, 2008, 4:39 PM
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clausti wrote: you and me will go to the obed and we will kiss chains.
I'll watch you do it first :)
Is it sexist if I want to let clausti hang the draws for me?
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Gmburns2000
Jun 6, 2008, 4:54 PM
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lena_chita wrote: clausti wrote: you and me will go to the obed and we will kiss chains. I'll watch you do it first :) Is it sexist if I want to let clausti hang the draws for me?
No, but it might be hot. 
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caughtinside
Jun 6, 2008, 5:51 PM
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clausti wrote: lena_chita wrote: kiss the chains and take a ride instead of clipping. I don't know any girls who do it-- even girls who push the limit and climb until falling rather than saying 'take' just accept those falls as inevitable thing, instead of getting an active enjoyment out of it like some guys do. you and me will go to the obed and we will kiss chains.
*Camhead PM'd*
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lena_chita
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Jun 6, 2008, 6:11 PM
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caughtinside wrote: you and me will go to the obed and we will kiss chains.
*Camhead PM'd*
Good point. We don't want to exclude guys-- that would be sexist.
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camhead
Jun 6, 2008, 6:17 PM
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I think that the Old Testament makes clear that a woman's place is hanging the draws for her husband.
ya.
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lena_chita
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Jun 6, 2008, 6:32 PM
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camhead wrote: I think that the Old Testament makes clear that a woman's place is hanging the draws for her husband. ya.
Here we come full circle to the old sexist attitudes :)
O.K., can't wait for clausti and obed promise. I'm off to the Red for the weekend. Hopefully the draws will hang themselves.
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kostik
Jun 6, 2008, 7:50 PM
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lena_chita wrote: Good point. We don't want to exclude guys-- that would be sexist.
I'm in.
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aerili
Jun 7, 2008, 1:01 AM
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chadnsc wrote: I'll admit I never looked at the concept of male and female climbers from such a scientific and biomechanics standpoint. The points you made are very interesting and have caused me to change my viewpoint the subject. Thanks you for taking the time to explain this in such a straightforward and objective manner.
In reply to: On a side note regarding weight loss being a relative proportion/ distribution among people of the same gender. I am curious how my particular build would be viewed in this discussion of physiology and biomechanics. ... Granted I am 20 pounds above my ideal climbing weight but could people not make a similar claim regarding my genetics and build as have been made comparing male and female climbers? This is a simple question spurred by curiosity and is in no way intended as a rebuttal.
Well, I don't know your specific height, but at the same time, no study has been done (that I am aware of) that analyzes and defines a "standard height" that correlates with higher performance in either recreational climbers or elite climbers (or, say, people who climb between x-x grades, etc.). So unless you are Shaquille O'Neal size, my guess is you are still not freakishly outside 3 standard deviations of the mean within a bell curve.
Body fat percentages often are better predictors of performance than height alone. Body fat composition is one of the five benchmarks of fitness (and fitness correlates with performance measurements in most sports); height is not a benchmark of fitness--clearly--and would only predict better or worse success in certain sports where it's clearly measurable, like absolute jump height in relation to an absolute net height, for instance. Also, all structures in the body scale up in size to accommodate increasing height; so your muscles are larger and stronger, your tendons and ligaments larger than someone smaller, etc.
Further, people don't carry weight or lose weight in unique or unusual patterns; fat distribution and accumulation tends to be the same across a gender (and age group, too, to some degree). i.e. even if you're carrying 20 extra lbs, no one is going to say, "Wow, Chad's unfortunate genetics for primary fingertip fat storage have really created an extra obstacle for him to use those dime edges on that 5.__. I would say it tacks on an extra letter grade or more at least."
Although hypothyroidism and Type I diabetes may pose a challenge to your ability to lose weight, it doesn't alter the fact that your male testosterone production gives you extra strength and muscle size (just like all other men) and it has developed your skeletal frame to have less mass lower on the body and a larger, broader, more powerful shoulder girdle that gives you a mechanical advantage over women in both upper body pushing and pulling movements.
So tell me again how you're so different from both women AND men that you could be in your own category??? j/k, I know you weren't saying that!!
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aerili
Jun 7, 2008, 1:27 AM
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lena_chita wrote: And a lot of responces were along the lines of "no, never, women are not capable of..."
Men's default thought process seems to focus mostly about what women canNOT do that they CAN do, not the other way around. If they cannot do something a woman can do, their automatic response is, "Hey, that's not fair--you're cheating/it's way easier for you because you have xyz (little fingers, massive hip flexibility, better balance, insert your favorite phrase) that I don't have!" It may be said in a friendly and joshing way, but I feel it really reflects what they're thinking and I find it weird that men may view such a situation as "unfair" but seem to view their own gender strengths as par for the course for all.
In reply to: ... And we did send it, we each came up with our own beta including a complicated arrangement of toe- and heel-hooks in place of sheer-strength campusing move. And you know what? not a single guy was able to do it that way-- several of them tried. And you know what another interestingthing fact is-- after they tried it couple times and gave up, a few of them have said something (dissmisively) about "the girl's way of doing it". ... For some reason it was necessary to assert that there was a straightforward "guys" way of doing it, and the "tricky" "girls way", and well, no man should stoop to tricks when he could rely on his strength! When it comes to a guy, other guys may think-- he is a prety good climber. No qualifiers. When it comes to a girl, a lot of guys think: she is a pretty good climber-- for a girl.
Great post, lena. Thanks for writing what I did not have the time to write.  I think your story about the boulder problem illustrates a bit about what I said just before. Moves that are harder for a male to do = tricks = "cheat" method.
Lastly, I would like to include something important written by psychologist Harriet Lerner. She says:
...in relationships between dominant and subordinate groups, the subordinate group members always possess a far greater understanding of dominant group members and their culture than vice versa. She is speaking specifically about the relationship between men and women here, but it applies to any two groups in that situation.
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puerto
Jun 7, 2008, 6:05 PM
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" Lastly, I would like to include something important written by psychologist Harriet Lerner. She says:
...in relationships between dominant and subordinate groups, the subordinate group members always possess a far greater understanding of dominant group members and their culture than vice versa. She is speaking specifically about the relationship between men and women here, but it applies to any two groups in that situation. "
I'm not too sure about that, very few women or minorities know about the secret monthly meetings all white males are required to attend, where we plot and strategize to subjugate women and minorities. I for one don't agree with them, life is so easy for me cause I'm a white male, I just try to reject any privileges that come my way.
Many years ago when my father offered to pay for college, I told him there's no way I could go to college when all those underprivileged minorities couldn't afford it. Now all my white male friends have good jobs and beautiful wives and children and nice houses while I work at McDonald's and live in the ghetto and women won't even look at me. But I'm still pretty happy 'cause I know did the right thing.
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