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iridesantacruz
Sep 15, 2008, 10:49 PM
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Which do you consider to be the most important concepts a climber needs to know before trad leading? In addition what do you think are the most commonly overlooked conepts of trad leading, whether they be small or big.
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hafilax
Sep 15, 2008, 10:59 PM
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[paraphrase]Climbing skills and placing gear will both save your life. Don't practice them at the same time.[/paraphrase]
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majid_sabet
Sep 15, 2008, 11:05 PM
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iridesantacruz wrote: Which do you consider to be the most important concepts a climber needs to know before trad leading? In addition what do you think are the most commonly overlooked conepts of trad leading, whether they be small or big.
Just do not pick anyone off the street to belay you
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sungam
Sep 15, 2008, 11:27 PM
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Learn to read the rock before leading- will the crack be protectable, what to do if that hold/placement is a spotted dick, best body positions to rest and place gear etc.
All of these come with the miles, but some also require active thought.
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jeremy11
Sep 16, 2008, 12:16 AM
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the most important concept is that trad climbing is hard, scary, expensive, dangerous, and addictive...... SO GET OUT WHILE YOU CAN!!
but once the perspective leader passes that point:
THINK SYSTEMS - the system is what saves you, not any one part - attention to detail is key (knots, harnesses, placements, rock quality, etc) but also look at the bigger picture: extending placements, saving pieces for higher, direction of pull,
ANCHOR BUILDING - building good anchors is essential - top out a single pitch trad line in big trees and learn how to anchor and top belay fast and effectively. learn to build a good gear anchor, whether fast or slow - take the time needed to make it bomber, you'll get faster later.
ROPE SKILLS - prussiking, improv rappelling and belaying.
DON'T LEARN HOW TO CLEAN GEAR
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evanwish
Sep 16, 2008, 1:53 AM
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jeremy11 wrote: DON'T LEARN HOW TO CLEAN GEAR
why's that?
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Factor2
Sep 16, 2008, 2:31 AM
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evanwish wrote: jeremy11 wrote: DON'T LEARN HOW TO CLEAN GEAR why's that?
ye, why's that?
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krosbakken
Sep 16, 2008, 2:34 AM
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Factor2 wrote: evanwish wrote: jeremy11 wrote: DON'T LEARN HOW TO CLEAN GEAR why's that? ye, why's that?
Ya ya, why's that? cuz most people do learn. like myself who seconded before I started leading.
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evanwish
Sep 16, 2008, 3:17 AM
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krosbakken wrote: Factor2 wrote: evanwish wrote: jeremy11 wrote: DON'T LEARN HOW TO CLEAN GEAR why's that? ye, why's that? Ya ya, why's that? cuz most people do learn. like myself who seconded before I started leading.
cleaning gives you the chance to evaluate gear placements and how long they slung them...
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dingus
Sep 16, 2008, 3:25 AM
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Trad climbing is a team sport. Spot check your buddy, have her check yours. All the time. Look out for each other. Be the angel on each other's shoulder. Keep each other alive. Cajole one another. Learn together. Huddle for warmth. Laugh when you're scard.
DMT
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currupt4130
Sep 16, 2008, 3:51 AM
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Don't fall.
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wormly81
Sep 16, 2008, 3:56 AM
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evanwish wrote: krosbakken wrote: Factor2 wrote: evanwish wrote: jeremy11 wrote: DON'T LEARN HOW TO CLEAN GEAR why's that? ye, why's that? Ya ya, why's that? cuz most people do learn. like myself who seconded before I started leading. cleaning gives you the chance to evaluate gear placements and how long they slung them...
Cleaning a bunch of gear is nice but it also means your passing up leads. I might be a touch dramatic but its a definite fact. I cleaned alot of gear and spent alot of time passing up leads that could have been mine.
The real question is... who is going to belay you. The climbing partner that teaches you to lead is by far the most important piece of the equation. This person knows climbing and they know you. More importantly than convincing yourself that you are capable of leading, you demonstrate your leader mindset and technical skills necessary to climb on gear to someone whose opinion you respect.
Sometimes these relationships can be tenuous as they require alot patience from a mentor. The status quo as a non leader is hard to break. To be a leader you need to demonstrate absolute control over the process and project your confidence to your team who depends on you.
The significance of the rope needs to be remembered. The rope physically connects you to your partner and connects you in any situation that should develop. The person in charge of moving the rope to the next anchor has to assume a leadership role not a "leader" role.
Bottom line is alot of want-to-be (potentially going-to-be) leaders is that they havn't been surrounded by enough skilled climbers to recognize what is really required.
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seatbeltpants
Sep 16, 2008, 4:23 AM
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interesting explanation for the comment - i thought you just wanted them to leave lots of booty 
steve
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milesenoell
Sep 16, 2008, 5:23 AM
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seatbeltpants wrote: interesting explanation for the comment - i thought you just wanted them to leave lots of booty steve
I'm thinking that IS what Jeremy11 had in mind when he wrote it, but wormly81 jumped on it and made it sound all nice and sh!t.
But seriously, to the OP, take intelligent risks. Pushing boundries is inherent in trad, but those who do it well do so by taking intelligent risks. Fear and caution are a little different, but telling them apart is important 'cause you get to ignore the fear, but not the caution.
(This post was edited by milesenoell on Sep 16, 2008, 5:31 AM)
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sungam
Sep 16, 2008, 8:33 AM
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wormly81 wrote: evanwish wrote: krosbakken wrote: Factor2 wrote: evanwish wrote: jeremy11 wrote: DON'T LEARN HOW TO CLEAN GEAR why's that? ye, why's that? Ya ya, why's that? cuz most people do learn. like myself who seconded before I started leading. cleaning gives you the chance to evaluate gear placements and how long they slung them... Cleaning a bunch of gear is nice but it also means your passing up leads. I might be a touch dramatic but its a definite fact. I cleaned alot of gear and spent alot of time passing up leads that could have been mine.
"the leads could have been yours". Lame.
Ever heard of alt leads? yeah, you know, the most efficient way to climb hard multipitch routes? you second half the pitches, and if you can't clean gear well then maybe the top pitches are going to feel a little more runout then usual...
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sungam
Sep 16, 2008, 8:56 AM
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jeremy11 wrote: DON'T LEARN HOW TO CLEAN GEAR
You, sir, are a moron.
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wormly81
Sep 16, 2008, 1:33 PM
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sungam wrote: wormly81 wrote: evanwish wrote: krosbakken wrote: Factor2 wrote: evanwish wrote: jeremy11 wrote: DON'T LEARN HOW TO CLEAN GEAR why's that? ye, why's that? Ya ya, why's that? cuz most people do learn. like myself who seconded before I started leading. cleaning gives you the chance to evaluate gear placements and how long they slung them... Cleaning a bunch of gear is nice but it also means your passing up leads. I might be a touch dramatic but its a definite fact. I cleaned alot of gear and spent alot of time passing up leads that could have been mine. You, sir, are also a moron. "the leads could have been yours". Lame. Ever heard of alt leads? yeah, you know, the most efficient way to climb hard multipitch routes? you second half the pitches, and if you can't clean gear well then maybe the top pitches are going to feel a little more runout then usual...
I hope your little excercise in internet posturing has made you feel better; you are a role model to internet punters around the world. The entire community can thank you for your amazing lesson on swapping leads... BRAVO!
I'd make the recommendation that when you call someone you dont know a moron that you should respond to what they wrote instead of sharing the meaningless drivel that immediately comes to mind.
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epoch
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Sep 16, 2008, 1:51 PM
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wormly81 wrote: sungam wrote: wormly81 wrote: evanwish wrote: krosbakken wrote: Factor2 wrote: evanwish wrote: jeremy11 wrote: DON'T LEARN HOW TO CLEAN GEAR why's that? ye, why's that? Ya ya, why's that? cuz most people do learn. like myself who seconded before I started leading. cleaning gives you the chance to evaluate gear placements and how long they slung them... Cleaning a bunch of gear is nice but it also means your passing up leads. I might be a touch dramatic but its a definite fact. I cleaned alot of gear and spent alot of time passing up leads that could have been mine. You, sir, are also a moron. "the leads could have been yours". Lame. Ever heard of alt leads? yeah, you know, the most efficient way to climb hard multipitch routes? you second half the pitches, and if you can't clean gear well then maybe the top pitches are going to feel a little more runout then usual... I hope your little excercise in internet posturing has made you feel better; you are a role model to internet punters around the world. The entire community can thank you for your amazing lesson on swapping leads... BRAVO! I'd make the recommendation that when you call someone you dont know a moron that you should respond to what they wrote instead of sharing the meaningless drivel that immediately comes to mind.
OH SNAP!
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knieveltech
Sep 16, 2008, 2:58 PM
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iridesantacruz wrote: Which do you consider to be the most important concepts a climber needs to know before trad leading? In addition what do you think are the most commonly overlooked conepts of trad leading, whether they be small or big.
With the unprecedented popularity of climbing and the ongoing influx of new climbers transitioning from the gym to the crag, this is definitely a post who's time has come.The following is a brief discussion of some core concepts in traditional climbing. There are others, but mastery of those listed below will have you well on your way.
Key Concepts:
===Gear Whoring===
Simply stated this is the art and science of amassing as much climbing gear as possible, regardless of usefulness or condition. This simply cannot be overstated: gear whoring is the heart and soul of trad climbing. Phases of gear whoredom are as follows:
-Neophyte-
Neophyte gear whores are easy to spot as their defining characteristic is they don't actually know what gear they need and are laboring under the (false) assumption that some types gear is more desireable than others. Neophytes are noted for posting "new trad rack" threads on various online forums, and can usually be spotted on the weekends milking REI docents for beta on which cams to buy. The usual rack at this stage consists of a set of sport draws, some nuts (BD, because REI doesn't always stock Metolius or ABC), maybe a couple of cams, all shiny.
-Apprentice-
This phase marks the soft gear explosion. Since a couple of biners and a draw or some prussic cord is generally substantially cheaper than buying a cam, this is a quick way to bulk up one's gear cache on a budget. During this phase mastery of the online deal is attained and much time is spent poring over various websites trying to milk another $.50 off of the price of their next camalot. Rack consists of two sets of nuts, half a set of cams. A few select pieces have small surface scratches from practicing gear placement at the sport crag/local boulders/between the fridge and the kitchen counter.
-Journeyman-
Things stabilize a bit at this stage as the gear whore settles in for the long haul. At this point a full rack has been acquired and climbed on a bit. Since the climber is now getting out on some local routes, the rack may include a few bootied pieces here and there. Journeymen (regardless of gender) tend to avoid the climbing section in REI in favor of the better selection available at most climbing shops, unless there's a sale of course, then it's time to triple up on cams!
-Master-
Ascent to mastery is a lifetime goal that many never reach. This guy owns at least four of every piece of gear you've ever heard of and has entire boxes full of crap you haven't (cassin blitz anyone?). Climbing gear, caving gear, everything from SMC Camlocks to Link Cams and everything in between, if it could be bought, borrowed, or bootied, rest assured the master gear whore has at least five and is eyeing that critical sixth piece. Rack consists of an inscrutable frankenstien-esque mashup of ancient, merely old, and modern but well-used pieces, with the odd bright shiny bit peeking out of the cluster of aluminum oxide and crusty nylon.
===Cheap Beer===
Old English, PBR, and Milwaukee's Best, because it's hard to afford good beer when you're dumping all your cash on gear. Nuff said.
===Ham Sammies===
Slap a slice of ham between two slices of bread, slather on some condiments you housed from KFC, and you're in business! Cheap as dirt with Carbs, protien, and um, mustard all present, the ham sammie trumps the clif bar as the crag power food of choice.
===Grade Deflation===
In trad, nobody really gives a flip how hard you climb. They're too busy sizing up your rack to pay much attention to the grade of the route you're on. With the normal peer pressure to push the grades that's present in sport climbing removed from the equation, trad climbers are free to do things like spend half the day climbing 600' of 5.2 without guilt or embarrasment. This is a good thing as it's hard to bust moves when you're half drunk and towing a 12 pack of PBR up the route.
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dingus
Sep 16, 2008, 3:14 PM
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knieveltech wrote: This is a good thing as it's hard to bust moves when you're half drunk and towing a 12 pack of PBR up the route.
No I assure you - its quite easy!
DMT
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zeke_sf
Sep 16, 2008, 3:26 PM
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wormly81 wrote: Cleaning a bunch of gear is nice but it also means your passing up leads. I might be a touch dramatic but its a definite fact. I cleaned alot of gear and spent alot of time passing up leads that could have been mine.
I agree: a touch dramatic.
Initially, I took a few months just following and I only feel like it was time well spent. I got to climb routes that were above my ability to both climb and protect at the same time while growing more familiar with placing gear and comfortable with the trad environment in general. One day, my mentor shoved me out on a lead and I did fine.
If it gets stagnant or you feel like you would respond to a different approach, by all means, do whatever floats your boat. Some people will be happy seconding their entire life and some people will solo their first route, but getting some experience and knowledge probably won't be what gets you in trouble.
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knieveltech
Sep 16, 2008, 3:31 PM
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dingus wrote: knieveltech wrote: This is a good thing as it's hard to bust moves when you're half drunk and towing a 12 pack of PBR up the route. No I assure you - its quite easy! DMT
Damn. I need to get your beer beta then.
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dingus
Sep 16, 2008, 3:37 PM
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knieveltech wrote: dingus wrote: knieveltech wrote: This is a good thing as it's hard to bust moves when you're half drunk and towing a 12 pack of PBR up the route. No I assure you - its quite easy! DMT Damn. I need to get your beer beta then.
(psst! here's the secret, bro...)
2nd CARRIES THE BEER! (this ain't no Eiger Sanction)
DMT
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knieveltech
Sep 16, 2008, 4:04 PM
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dingus wrote: knieveltech wrote: dingus wrote: knieveltech wrote: This is a good thing as it's hard to bust moves when you're half drunk and towing a 12 pack of PBR up the route. No I assure you - its quite easy! DMT Damn. I need to get your beer beta then. (psst! here's the secret, bro...) 2nd CARRIES THE BEER! (this ain't no Eiger Sanction) DMT
Best. Movie. Ever.
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jeremy11
Sep 16, 2008, 4:24 PM
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evanwish wrote: jeremy11 wrote: DON'T LEARN HOW TO CLEAN GEAR why's that?
so I can clean it for them
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