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xanx
Jul 19, 2003, 1:57 AM
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ok i was talking to a friend of mine about those hard (5.14) trad routes, and he said that everyone does the route on TR a whole lot until they have every move dialed, then they go for the gear lead and the redpoint, knowing they will never fall. Supposedly, someone (i forget who) did a 5.14 trad lead, go to the top, dropped an 80 lb pack, and it zippered every piece of gear. so, on these hard trad lines, falling = death.
this seems completely pointless to me. either have the balls to work it on lead (and risk a very probable death if u don't onsight it), or bolt it and go sport. or, if the area won't allow bolts, either TR it and be happy with that, or freesolo it and rap down. putting in the gear on these trad lines seems completely ceremonial, if 90% of the placements won't even hold body weight. some people say "well, the motions of putting in gear and clipping on lead makes the climb harder than on TR, so unless u do that u can't claim to have "done" the climb..." - this sounds like BS to me. so, by this logic, if i freesoloed Realization, i couldn't claim that i actually "did" (or redpointed or whatever) it? somehow my freesolo would be less of an accomplishment than the redpoint? hard trad seems basically like a freesolo where u stop to put crap in the wall. if it is true that if u fall u die, just freesolo and rap down or whatever.
i just can't see the significance of bothering to do these as trad ascents if u work it on TR first.
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joemor
Jul 19, 2003, 2:38 AM
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no doubt there are probably routes that have shit gear and are hard but there are also hard trad routes with bomber gear.
like mother of god in the grampians aust. grade 30 ofwith
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jhump
Jul 19, 2003, 3:09 AM
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Anything this poorly thoughtout and ignorant has got to be a troll. In the infinitecimal chance this is legit...
To say that no gear holds on hard trad routes is flat out wrong. Many of the hardest trad routes have been sent ground up, and lots of air time has been logged. Falling on many of these lines does not equal death. Check out the gigantic fall Dean Potter took onto a tiny cam on the Tombstone (the link has been up for a week).
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kalcario
Jul 19, 2003, 3:20 AM
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Can you quit being the biggest numbers weenie in the history of the sport for, like, 5 minutes? Good. Thank you. Now do what I did on Friday night when I was your age and carless. Wait till everybody goes to bed. Wait a half-hour longer. Now gently sliiide that bedroom window open, huck your gear...er, I mean your foam pad outside, crawl out, walk to the freeway, and stand there with your thumb out. Don't stop till you see rock.
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stuck
Jul 19, 2003, 4:34 AM
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Xanx, i am really curious. How do you, a climber who has never been out of the gym, posses a cognitive dictionary of all these hard routes, climbers, and areas. You talk about "Klem's new 9a+ linkup", as if you and him just got back from Font.
Dude, if i were you i would spend less time worrying about the legitimacy of Fred roughlings 5.18 project and work my ass off to get a ride to your local crags.
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nunyoboy
Jul 19, 2003, 4:53 AM
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:? Do you climb x rated trad routes in the 5.14 range? Do you even have the desire to do so? Why must you question other peoples ethic or motives as to why they climbed a route in a particular manner? Did you put this route up? I guess I just do not understand why the way someone you probably don't even know climbs a route is so important. Maybe you just don't have anything to talk about. Maybe you climb really hard routes, maybe you don't. I guess I will never know because none of this is important to me and in no way affects the way I climb or why I climb.
Get a life of your own before you bitch about other peoples. :)
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stuck
Jul 19, 2003, 5:23 AM
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Maybe i was slightly conforntational. I didn't mean to badmouth xanx. His posts are without a doubt, some of the most inteligent I have seen on this site and there is no denying his knowledge of climbing.
I just really can't understand why someone who knows so much about the sport hasn't managed to get a ride to his local crag. I think his knowledge should be applied directly to the actual act of climbing.
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adeptus
Jul 19, 2003, 10:50 AM
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I think you got a point there. Generally free soloing a route is considered "better" than leading on gear, even though you don't waste energy to clip the rope. So on the hardest routes it should be acceptable to claim an ascent if you top roped it, I think. Maybe you could top rope with a large amount of slack, so you would get a big whipper, to justify the use of top rope?
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socialclimber
Jul 19, 2003, 3:01 PM
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Ethics is a hairy old argument that goes back beond the days when it was considered bad form to climb mountians using crampons. You only need to be true to yourself. If you are happy with a TR lead, thats fine. If you have the balls and ability to free solo, thats fine too.
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dirtineye
Jul 19, 2003, 3:45 PM
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There's a flaw with kill filling someone... if they started a thread the thread still remains. Any way to kill file a thread?
Like this one LOL
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xanx
Jul 19, 2003, 5:50 PM
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wow... i think the climbing community has degenerated into something resembling my high school in the last few weeks....
why haven't i gotten a ride to the "local" (gunks, 3 hrs) crag? b/c my mom is a b!tch and won't let me go with most people. how about u let me worry about getting out on some rock ok? unless YOU want to give me a ride...
sorry if i sound a bit pissed, but i am. i was asking a question based on the information i was given. if that is false, then you can all go and bitch to my friend about it, he is the one i was talking with.
and yes, i have seen the vid of the 50' whipper on Tombstone.
and why am i a "number weenie" for showing curiosity in the newest developements in our sport? i dunno why, but i like to have a good idea of where the frontier for difficulty is. in the end does it matter to me if chilam balam is a 9b+ or not? no. does that mean i can't express some skepticism given Fernandez's tick list thus far?
people have a wonderful way of only reading the things i post that fit their preconstructed view of me (teenage gym rat). take a look around before trying to flame me. you'll see i have posted quite a few times to the tune of "the difference between 9a+ and 9b and 9b+ is rather irrelevent compared to the anatomical differences in climbers and their respective strengths and weaknesses, thus the differences in climbers can account for much of the perceived increase or decrease in difficulty when comparing two or more of these climbs".
God.
i'll give this to the end of the day, then i'm deleting my first post if it continues on this tone.
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xanx
Jul 19, 2003, 7:06 PM
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yeah i'm gonna fcking sneak out and walk to the gunks... right... or just try and hitch a ride off of the next climber i see on the highway... yeah that will end well...
and how the fck do u suppose i get a ride from these NY climbers? Hmmm? walk up to NYC? or maybe convince them to drive 4 hrs out of their way to pick me up?
i don't see you offering to drive over here and give me a ride...
why don't u do the species a favor and go jump off of el cap or semething?
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flamer
Jul 19, 2003, 7:18 PM
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In reply to: Maybe i was slightly conforntational. I didn't mean to badmouth xanx. His posts are without a doubt, some of the most inteligent I have seen on this site and there is no denying his knowledge of climbing. I just really can't understand why someone who knows so much about the sport hasn't managed to get a ride to his local crag. I think his knowledge should be applied directly to the actual act of climbing.
LOL!! His "Knowledge"? Dude it comes from reading mags, books, and spewing with his plastic bouldering buddies in the gym! True knowledge is not gained from what other people have done or said! You have to experience things for yourself!
Hey Xanx, I'll concede that you may actually have climbed outside a few times, But have you ever followed a trad route? Have you ever placed a piece of gear? Have you ever even looked at a hard trad line?
You have no basis for your statements! This is why you get Flamed!! Blaming it on your friend is an easy thing to do! Or your Mom!
Until you take responibilty for your own action's and statements you will never learn the benefit of keeping your mouth shut and thinking before you do something!
I know you're a teenager, but these are things you will(I would hope!) learn one day!
josh
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data118
Jul 19, 2003, 7:49 PM
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:lol:
Yo Xanx, are you still heading to the Gunks on Sunday? The weather cleared up. 8)
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xanx
Jul 19, 2003, 9:20 PM
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i have always been one who is not afraid to ask questions. i figure, about 75% of all people i have met are assholes anyway, so y the fck should i care what they think of me? i know who my friends are and they know what kind of person i am. the rest of you are just proving me right... i don't want to have sh!t to do with u cause ur just a bunch of egocentric drones. if u think i'm a jerk or an idiot or whatever, well that's just fine with me b/c hopefully if u think i'm worthless u'll stay the fck outta my way and i won't have to deal w/ u much.
i ask a question, present my musings, and get flamed by a bunch of elitists. congrats. i've been in a few flame wars before, but i have never had opponents whose arguments are founded on nothing but a bunch of elitist personal hate. no one here past the first few posts even referred to the original question in any way at all. well, like i said, u can attack my personality all u like, u can killfile me if u want, u don't have to respond to my "gay" threads, no one is forcing u. but u sure as hell aren't going to get me banned. just like Lox and PTPP, i am here, so deal with it. and if u don't like me then STFU.
EDIT: if u all keep this up, i may have to start flaming properly (hit pg down 3 times).
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flamer
Jul 20, 2003, 1:26 AM
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Dude you really don't get it do you?
Ok Last try to make a point with you...
#1- PTPP and LOX may both have their detracters. And they may piss alot of people off. BUT THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT!! I may not agree with Pete and have been known to give him shit-BUT I do respect his Technical knowledge. That's the difference between them and you.
#2 It's pretty funny that you linked your previous "flame" war in this post. That was the thread where your imaturity and lack of knowledge first came to light. And yet you display it so proudly! By the way how does Pete's D*ck taste? And did it hurt when his balls slapped your chin?
Seriously,bro you will one day look back and realise just how stupid you looked! But It's ok, we've all been there!
In fact I'll tell you what, if you can make it out to Colorado I'd be happy to take you out climbing. Long Trad routes...whatever you want...I'm sure it would only take a little for you to see what it's all about.
josh
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renobdarb
Jul 20, 2003, 3:22 AM
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better watch it, guys... i think he means business...
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mewalrus
Jul 21, 2003, 3:25 AM
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In reply to: ur just a bunch of egocentric drones.
No it appears that you are in your first post. Why do you feel the need to criticise others in what is a purely personal sport.
I see nothing unethical as long as you aren't harming others or destroying the rock in any way. I don't know where you and you ego get off criticising someones "ethics" who isn't doing either of these. Just because some stupid magazines and corporate sponsors want to portray climbing as one thing you do to????
I don't understand at all.
Sure I might think some people are crazy for the things they do, but I wouldn't call it unethical. Some people call me crazy and I don't do shit thats crazy. There is a big difference between crazy and unethical.
There does that answer your first post well enough?
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soma
Jul 21, 2003, 4:42 AM
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Edited/removed due to my own idiocy.
Dave
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micahmcguire
Jul 21, 2003, 8:12 AM
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obviously xanx doesn't lead muich trad, or he would understand that the very act of placing protection is an enjoyable part of the sport. Sure people sometimes practice routes on toprope before they lead on trad, but that is because trad climbing is so much harder and more technical than TR or sport. For you (xanx) to suggest that us trad climbers should be happy and satisfied remaining on toprope or bolts tells me that you are missing half the point of why people still place traditional anchors in the first place, because it too is fun. Sure the climb is fun, but exploring the reciptivity of the rock to protection is as close to "having a relationship with the rock" so-to-speak as I can think of. There is a missing element in TR and sport that only real trad climbers feel, a much more exploratory and indepandant feel than hanging from a toprope or clipping into someone else's bolts. You should try it sometime, its magic.
As far as the pro failing, if it does then A) the rock is sheit and won't hold a well-placed piece anyways, in which case that sucks, stay on TR or whatever safety will permit. B) the placements are bad and the person who falls has been hoist with their own petard. Its not like trad gear is unreliable, its only as good as the rock or the person placing it. I've taken falls on the tiniest of nuts, and they've held because I placed them well. 90% of gear failing to hold bodyweight? Hahahahahahaha, yeah freakin right. That can be attributed to nothing but human error. The gear is fine.
Certainly don't try and invalidate trad climbing because someone can't gauge risk or place well. And don't try to invalidate it because you don't understand the feeling of accomplishment that placing your own anchors provides. Try it, you'll like it.
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adeptus
Jul 21, 2003, 9:54 AM
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To get back on topic I would like to say, that on the hardest trad routes protection is actually worse than on easy routes. The harder the climb, the fewer and smaller the holds or cracks will be.
I've seen a route put up by Leo Holding in Sweden. I can't remember the precise grade but I think it was E9/10 7a (5.13c/d X R). It goes up a steep arete were you have to use the two sides as slopers and it's protected by micro wires and a skyhook.
On these extreme routes there is no such thing as onsight. You'd better know ever single move and when to place the gear, or else you'll die for sure. Top roping is the only safe way to learn. When it comes to the actual ascent of the routes, you can either solo, or lead with the same mentality as if you were soloing.
So my guess is that on the extreme routes of the future, the holds and cracks will be so scars, that it's not actually possibly to protect the climb in any way. In this scenario you will have to be satisfied with free climbing it with a top rope, or you will have to solo the route.
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climbsomething
Jul 21, 2003, 10:56 AM
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As clever as this would have been as a troll, I do not think the original post was necessarily meant to just incite people. Xanx may have been naive, and I can see how many people would bristle at his opinion, but I think this is a legit, albeit controversial question. Plenty of us might look at a 13d R/X trad line (:shock:) and wonder, Why? What's the point? Of course, there are legit answers too.
I do not identify as a trad climber, I am not mutant strong, but I understand, like micahmcguire does, that placing and trusting gear is part and parcel of trad climbing. It's definitional to a certain genre of climbing. Climbers place gear and establish trad lines, even if on wee nothings, Because They Can (tm). Just the way it is.
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rockprodigy
Jul 21, 2003, 7:40 PM
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Allow me to quote myself from another, related thread:
In reply to: ....A bunch of middle-aged losers picking on a 14 year old. What is the world coming to? Don't you have some of your own teenagers to pistol whip? errr...wait...that would mean that, at some point in your pitiful lives, you got laid, which is obviously impossible! LEAVE THE KID ALONE!!!
It's funny how quickly you all jump to conclusions. It's obvious young xanx here was informed about "headpointing"...the new rage in British gritstone climbing, but he didn't know it was called that. You guys automatically assume he's slagging you off for your own routes...unless of course you do TR stuff before leading it...if that's the case, then there's a reason you're feeling guilty.
How 'bout someone just says: "oh yes, you're talking about headpointing, and that is the local ethic over there."
Instead you go off on him because he climbs in a gym. Well, I climbed in a gym when I was in high school too, that's all there was, but I climb trad now, and better than you!
If you want to pick on someone, pick on me...come on, I'll take it, here's something for you to work with:
I ALSO THINK "HEADPOINTING" IS STUPID!!!
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bandycoot
Jul 21, 2003, 8:37 PM
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There are plenty of hard trad routes that are done in good style. Look at "Fiddler on the Roof" 5.13d. It is a roof finger crack that has NEVER been repeated. The FAist lead the crack, while placing gear. The finger lock he sets gear from is so heinous he says he has to tape his finger for fear of his skin just slipping right off... Pyromania is another at about 5.13c. This has also been lead while setting pro by at least one climber: Ron Kauk. I don't know much about hard trad lines, but they aren't all "head points." The few that I've seen done in Masters of Stone videos were pretty gnarly leads, but the pro looked good!
Josh
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