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slablizard
Jun 8, 2004, 10:50 PM
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I was pissed the other day. I've been lead climbing outdoor with my new partner for few months now, we were leading in the gym too even if he did not have a lead card, so the other day he decides to take the test.
Missy explains to my partner all he has to do, don't skip the first bolt (DUH) dont let the rope go behind your legs, don't fall (?) and don't fumble with the quickdraws.
Ok.
He starts and after few minutes he's on top of this .9, he's 2 feet under the belay station so he decides to skip the last quickdraw, literally under the belay station, stretch his arm up and clip directly the belay station.
He cames down and she goes "soo-oorryy..I can't pass you because you skipped the last clip".
:shock:
now missy has been climbing in the gym for maybe 6 monthd with probably 2 outdoor bouldering trips, and I have to take this after 20 plus years of climbing (outdoor) from somebody that was absolutely puzzled by my bowline knot, like I was a sort of eccentric using it.
I was pissed because I can't lead ( for now) in the gym and people qualified (?) to give a belay test is rare in my gym.
What do you guys think?
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taino
Jun 8, 2004, 10:58 PM
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I think your buddy broke the rules, and maybe next time he won't skip a clip.
What - did you think that because you've got 20 years experience, the rules suddenly don't apply?
Someone call the whaaaaaaaambulance.
T
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davidji
Jun 8, 2004, 11:00 PM
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In reply to: What do you guys think?
2. When I used to sportclimb indoors, I'd skip the last draw occasionally too.
3. Without regard to how much "clue" the woman had, I think her job was to fail people who don't do everything exactly the way they want, and it sounds like she did what she was supposed to do.
Hope they don't pull my belay card for doing the same, although I do so little roped climbing of any kind indoors it isn't likely.
Which gym?
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epic_ed
Jun 8, 2004, 11:02 PM
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I think you need to get outside and climb more often. Screw the damn gym. Your account sounds like exactly the kind of myopia I'd expect to find at any plastic palace. Is she clueless? Absolutely. Most gym are chocked full of morons running the show. Avoid them like the plague and expect confounding stupidity when you go there to train.
Ed
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jonnyb
Jun 8, 2004, 11:05 PM
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If she said, "don't skip any draws" then he shouldn't have skipped the draw. That's just the way it is in gyms. I've got 15 years of outdoors experience and one time I lost my belay card and had to take the test over again. The guy called me a 'slack-a$$ belayer' cause I didn't reiterate that you need 6 inches of tail in your knot. That's just how it goes in gyms. You gotta play by their rules.
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davidji
Jun 8, 2004, 11:11 PM
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In reply to: That's just how it goes in gyms. You gotta play by their rules.
Outside of the USA I've never seen a gym with a belay test. The few I've visited assume you know how to climb.
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qpang
Jun 8, 2004, 11:14 PM
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if you only skipped the last clip and a fall from that point wouldn't have caused you to deck, I don't see the problem. I lead sport and trad and have for many years, and I skip bolts all the time. Sometimes its safer to run it out a bit and get some pro in on an easier stance where you can rest comfortably, than to try and fumble with a clip when your hanging by a fingernail. I've even skipped the first bolt before if I think climbing past it will be easier than clipping it. Besides last time I checked the buy leading is the one taking all the risk. You should do what you're comfortable with. Belaying is diffenent cause your partber is the one taking all the risk, here there should be no room for error.
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bandycoot
Jun 8, 2004, 11:20 PM
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:lol: I skipped the last clip on my lead test and passed.
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iamthewallress
Jun 8, 2004, 11:24 PM
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I am a Missy.
I work in a Bay Area gym, although I didn't give your friend the test in question.
At the gym where I work, it's printed in bold letters on the wall "Lead Rules." One of them says no skipping clips. When you sign up for a gym membership, you sign something that says you've read the rules and agree to them. When you get your card, you sign the back of it which says you've passed the test following the rules and agree to them.
The reason why you're not supposed to skip clips is that even though lots of people are sure that they are big studs with lots of experience and good judgement that trumps the gym owners, people make mistakes....or just dumbasses...and they skip clips, take big falls, and accidents happen. The gyms are friggin' crowded. If there weren't a lot of bolts and you weren't required to clip them, insurance and liability would be much bigger issues, and then you'd betch about your high membership fee.
I don't care if you run the whole rope out when you outside. Just don't do it in the gym or whine on the internet about how you broke the gym rules and failed your test and then blame it on the ignorance of the gym employee (who was doing her job the same as one of the employees with decades of experience). If your friend is so dialed, he'll have no problem with the test the next time you go to the gym. You didn't get to lead for one night. Get over it.
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slablizard
Jun 8, 2004, 11:24 PM
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Well actually no, she did not say " clip every quickdraw you can reach" she saud don't skip the FIRST. Plus the last quick.was 2 feet under the BS, it was really a matter of extending one's arm.
The fact that I was climbing before she was born should give me a little credit when I say that there was no danger in skipping that bolt. Don't you think?
And it's not a matter of breaking the rules, but common sense ! But I can see what you're saying here. Still it pisses me off. On top of it yes, if the rules are stupid they don't apply. At least I see it this way.
Like their pretense for me to use the hands up technique and the figure eight. Go learn climbing knots instead!
Ok, my EGO was pissed because she did not respected my HUGE experience. Baaaaad Baaad Ego. Pooor little EGO.....
In reply to: I think your buddy broke the rules, and maybe next time he won't skip a clip. What - did you think that because you've got 20 years experience, the rules suddenly don't apply? Someone call the whaaaaaaaambulance. T |
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slablizard
Jun 8, 2004, 11:34 PM
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Yo wallress
I did got over it and I was not whining, I was talking about climbing stuff with fellow climbers here . There was no written rule in the gym in question (worked there for 4 months too) And I understand everything, but I expected a bit of mental flexibility since the "missy" in question was not a robot, and we even worked together, at the time I was doing such tests. without being unnecessarily strict. We are talking about a 2 feet runout!
I hate when people is close minded.
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davidji
Jun 8, 2004, 11:40 PM
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In reply to: since the "missy" in question was not a robot, and we even worked together, |
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slablizard
Jun 8, 2004, 11:45 PM
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Do I have to? It's not personal at this point, and I hate to take names. It's not where Wallress works I can tell you that.
One thing she's right (wallress) I should get over it, hell it wasn't even my test.
Ahhhh todays' youth! :lol: No respect for tjhe elder climber!
PM me if you're really curious....
In reply to: In reply to: since the "missy" in question was not a robot, and we even worked together, Which gym? |
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jules
Jun 8, 2004, 11:47 PM
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I'm a missy, too. We don't have set-in-stone rules for leading and belaying. If people can do it safely, they pass, even if it's not our preferred method of belaying, etc. If they can't do it without endangering themselves/others, they have to take a lesson and do it our way.
Either way, safety is the top priority. I'd probably have passed him, but I can understand why they didn't.
How long until he can take the test again?
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granite_grrl
Jun 8, 2004, 11:56 PM
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In reply to: Outside of the USA I've never seen a gym with a belay test. The few I've visited assume you know how to climb.
Almost every gym in Canada requires a belay test too.
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wonderbread
Jun 8, 2004, 11:56 PM
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Watch the lame generalizations Epic-ed; I work in a gym and know for a fact that I've been up El Cap many more times than you.
Next, gyms have simple rules follow them and it's all cool. But there are rules, and they need to be followed for a number of reasons, safety for the climber and protection for the gym against lawsuits to name a few. Don't follow the rules and you don't pass. The one thing I get tired of is people who don't know what they are talking about giving me sh1t because they think I am a moron gym employee and they lead outside so they know more. The attitude so lame, and I'd guarantee that I am a more experienced climber than 99% of the people who walk through that gym door, and 100% more accomplished than anyone who would give me sh1t for enforcing the rules.
Next, what if something happened because you disregarded a rule or two and someone got hurt. Will the court throw out the lawsuit because you'e been climbing outside and think you know what you are doing? Or will the court uphold the lawsuit because a gym employee let you skip a couple rules and got yourself hurt?
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slablizard
Jun 9, 2004, 12:01 AM
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Ok I understand you and the wallress are protecting your fellow climbing gym employees ( I 've been one too) But you're really saying that a 2 FEET ( not even) runout is a SAFETY ISSUE?
Come on.
:roll:
My guess is she had PMS that day :)
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legless
Jun 9, 2004, 12:06 AM
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In reply to: When you sign up for a gym membership, you sign something that says you've read the rules and agree to them. When you get your card, you sign the back of it which says you've passed the test following the rules and agree to them.
*yawn*
In reply to: The reason why you're not supposed to skip clips is that even though lots of people are sure that they are big studs with lots of experience and good judgement that trumps the gym owners, people make mistakes....or just dumbasses...and they skip clips, take big falls, and accidents happen. The gyms are friggin' crowded. If there weren't a lot of bolts and you weren't required to clip them, insurance and liability would be much bigger issues
i dont see it...the liability waivers are valid in this sort of enterprise. It may be one thing to patently under-bolt your gym...but once a dude starts skipping clips, the gym is well protected liability-wise. (with respect to his well-being)
I could see how one could argue on liability grounds that the first clip cant be skipped as climber might deck onto someone below (even then, the waiver probably protectes the gym on both ends)...but last clip...no way. its just a rule monger doing what rule mongers do best.
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pornstarr
Jun 9, 2004, 12:07 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: That's just how it goes in gyms. You gotta play by their rules. Right, but the rules really depend on the gym.
not in this case it doesn't (depend). the rules were clearly stated, it seems, prior to them not being followed.
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wonderbread
Jun 9, 2004, 12:16 AM
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No it's probably not a safety issue, but since that clip was skipped, why not skip the before it too. I mean the draws are so close together that you probably wouldn't hit the ground. Or why not skip the last three because your so pumped and you'd fall if you stopped to clip, but send if you just move quickly. Everyone on the rope climbs outside so let them take whatever risks they want right? The thing is, the people that come into a gym run the entire gamut of experience, common sense, and abilities. The rules really do need to be black and white. How about this scenario...you're buddy cruises the route and skips the last clip, I pass him and it is all cool-you guys know what you are doing. Then the dude next to me wants to take his lead test. Sketches his way up it, doesn't look solid, but gets up, except he also skips the last clip. This guy, needs more experience and may hurt himself so I fail him for skipping the last clip. He comes down and is pissed because I let you pass even though you skipped a clip and I failed him for doing the same thing. All I'm saying is if people have as much experience and knowledge and have been climbing for ohh so long, then they understand and abide by the very simple rules of the gym.
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meataxe
Jun 9, 2004, 12:19 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Outside of the USA I've never seen a gym with a belay test. The few I've visited assume you know how to climb. Almost every gym in Canada requires a belay test too.
Because too many lawyers sneek across the border into our country under the cover of darkness. :roll:
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wonderbread
Jun 9, 2004, 12:20 AM
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In reply to: i dont see it...the liability waivers are valid in this sort of enterprise. It may be one thing to patently under-bolt your gym...but once a dude starts skipping clips, the gym is well protected liability-wise. (with respect to his well-being)
Sorry, but those liability waivers are not going to do the slightest bit of good if an employee knowingly and willingly let's the dude skip a clip. The gym is not protected liability wise if the dude starts skipping clips and they do nothing about it. Or pass him on his lead test-that's a way of approving the skipping of clips.
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iamthewallress
Jun 9, 2004, 12:28 AM
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In reply to: i dont see it...the liability waivers are valid in this sort of enterprise. It may be one thing to patently under-bolt your gym...but once a dude starts skipping clips, the gym is well protected liability-wise. (with respect to his well-being)
Right-O. The gym has no liability if some dude skips clips on the lead test, gets a 'pass' and then procedes to have an accident doing the same?
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slablizard
Jun 9, 2004, 12:29 AM
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Wonderbread, If you're as experienced as you say ( And I' don't doubt it) IT SHOULD TAKE YOU 5 SECONDS TO JUDGE IF SOMEBODY CAN LEAD OR NOT. And take a decision, explaining to the second guy that he's just not ready yet.
That said I agree that rules have a purpose, but the grey mass sitting in your head too.
Anyway, guess I was wrong. We should be lead tested by robots applying rules decided by some jerk who knows nothing about climbing and stay quiet.
What a fool to think that somebody working and giving tests in a gym should be a climber in the first place.
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iamthewallress
Jun 9, 2004, 12:36 AM
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In reply to: What a fool to think that somebody working and giving tests in a gym should be a climber in the first place.
I'm curious...If someone like 'Dave' (who works at the gym where I work and has been climbing for ~40 years) failed your friend for not following the rules, would you feel as slighted as you do because the gal who gave him the test was relatively inexperienced?
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