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aimeerose
Jan 27, 2005, 4:16 PM
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I was just at 2 popular crags in Red Rocks last weekend (The Pier and Tsunami) and was appalled at what I saw. There were huge tick marks everywhere and even worse rock "art". Someone had etched "art" into the rock at both areas. Especially worse at Tsunami- a huge "mural". This stuff never goes away! Then, we left leaver biners at the top of a climb at Tsunami and someone took them! If that person reads this, know that those biners were dropped on solid rock from about 40 feet off the deck. Anyways, please have more respect for the crags so we don't have more closures.
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ben87
Jan 27, 2005, 5:01 PM
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well that sucks
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fire_eyes
Jan 27, 2005, 5:08 PM
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Oh my g...if I showed up at Josh one weekend and saw this I'd probably cry :cry:
Isn't Red Rocks a National Park like Joshua Tree? Who is doing this? I can't imagine it's climbers...
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phugganut
Jan 28, 2005, 1:24 AM
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No, Red Rocks is not a national park; it's a conservation area. However, I believe what you're describing IS against the law anyway, not to mention just a crappy thing to do.
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vegastradguy
Jan 28, 2005, 1:49 AM
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ugh....unfortunately, i believe it is climbers. Many climbers who spend their time in RR are tourists (we dont have a large local scene here, believe it or not) and many, sadly, have a tourist mentality about the area they are climbing in. They don't respect local ethic (i see people on Panty Wall all the time the day after a heavy rain- i saw 10 people the day after our month long rains ended!), they dont clean up after themselves, and they love tick marks- which on our beautiful Red Rock, stick out like a sore thumb.
I know that not all climbers are like this and I also know that many climbers who frequent the sport walls spend time taking care of them, but because it is not a national park, there is not a significant ranger presence or local climbing presence to keep the walls in as good a shape as they should be kept.
ugh, sounds like i'll need to try and rustle up some folks sometime soon and go on a clean-up mission. maybe the RR Rendevous folks will see this thread and sponsor a crag clean-up day....
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jomal
Jan 28, 2005, 1:55 AM
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why is it a problem right after a rain?
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vegastradguy
Jan 28, 2005, 1:59 AM
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because its sandstone. water softens the rock- alot. climbing after a heavy rain can do two things:
1) compromise protection (including bolts) and
2) destroy the rock and thus destroy a beautiful route.
so in other words, climb after a rain and you risk not only breaking holds and falling, but theres also a much smaller chance that those bolts will actually stay in the rock (or cams, nuts, etc). so, you can end up dead and destroy the rock at the same time.
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phugganut
Jan 28, 2005, 2:02 AM
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In reply to: why is it a problem right after a rain?
Sandstone is generally unsafe to climb on when wet. The rock loses a lot of it's strength.
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chitlinsconcarne
Jan 28, 2005, 3:47 AM
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In reply to: I was just at 2 popular crags in Red Rocks last weekend (The Pier and Tsunami) and was appalled at what I saw. There were huge tick marks everywhere.
That does suck, a few minutes work cleaning up after a session keeps things looking so much better.
In reply to: and even worse rock "art". Someone had etched "art" into the rock at both areas. Especially worse at Tsunami- a huge "mural". This stuff never goes away! .
That sucks even more. I wish that people would have more respect for the area.
In reply to: Then, we left leaver biners at the top of a climb at Tsunami and someone took them! If that person reads this, know that those biners were dropped on solid rock from about 40 feet off the deck.
Leaver biners are free range critters. Left unattended they tend to migrate to other routes. On the other hand, if you object to someone taking your trash, don't leave it at the crag.
In reply to: Anyways, please have more respect for the crags so we don't have more closures.
Good idea.
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aimeerose
Jan 28, 2005, 5:19 AM
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In reply to: Left unattended they tend to migrate to other routes. On the other hand, if you object to someone taking your trash, don't leave it at the crag.
They didn't even migrate to other routes. Someone just took them. At the Tsunami wall all the other routes have leaver biners at the top for ease of cleaning. We just happened to put what looked like nicer biners at the top (Petzel Spirits), but they are acutally junk. I doubt they would hold a leader fall, but I guess that's Karma
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reno
Jan 28, 2005, 5:23 AM
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In reply to: Then, we left leaver biners at the top of a climb at Tsunami and someone took them!
So what's the problem with this?
You left gear.
Someone else took it.
I fail to see a problem with that.
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benpullin
Jan 28, 2005, 6:39 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Then, we left leaver biners at the top of a climb at Tsunami and someone took them! So what's the problem with this? You left gear. Someone else took it. I fail to see a problem with that.
Standard newbie/selfish philosophy.
Try to do people a favor by replacing lower-off carabiners at a sport crag, and some dumbass "cleans" them.
Are carabiners really that expensive that people have to take old, used ones left at the anchor of a route? Wouldn't you rather clip in and lower off, rather than threading chains?
To those that steal biners: Get a life (or a job).
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addiroids
Jan 28, 2005, 7:07 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Then, we left leaver biners at the top of a climb at Tsunami and someone took them! So what's the problem with this? You left gear. Someone else took it. I fail to see a problem with that. Standard newbie/selfish philosophy. Try to do people a favor by replacing lower-off carabiners at a sport crag, and some dumbass "cleans" them. Are carabiners really that expensive that people have to take old, used ones left at the anchor of a route? Wouldn't you rather clip in and lower off, rather than threading chains? To those that steal biners: Get a life (or a job).
Geez you fucking whiny babies. If you leave gear it is booty. That's the definition of a leaver biner. If you leave it and someone else is smart enough to be able to clean the route on rappel instead of being lowered then you have no reason to bitch.
First you bitch about unsightly stuff at a crag, then you leave unsightly stuff at the crag. Get a life, and remember that climbing is about adventure, not manufactured and sanitized fun.
Besides, those leaver biners probably migrated to some aids climber's rack. But after climbing in the 110 degree heat and then the pouring rain, all the red "beater" tape wore off and it just became part of his rack now.
AND TO RENO: Yeah you noob!!! What the hell are you doing telling sport climbers how to climb? You know they aren't actually climbing, merely engaging in rock gymnastics. Why don't you go climb a Grade VI in a day or something like that!! That's like way easier than the last 5.18j+ I put up last weekend. That took me 3 days to do after I installed the necessary hardware into the rock and comfortized the holds.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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maculated
Jan 28, 2005, 8:24 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: why is it a problem right after a rain? Sandstone is generally unsafe to climb on when wet. The rock loses a lot of it's strength.
It's not that its unsafe - you just ruin the climb for other people. I am staunch about not climbing on sandstone 3 days after even a little rain. While it might be 'unsafe,' and cause you a fall, the most important issue here is that if you break off a hold, you end the fun for everyone.
And I second Paul. You leave gear on a route - it's free game. Thank you.
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shakylegs
Jan 28, 2005, 3:02 PM
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Um, yeah, it is unsafe. In RR, at least. I've had chicken heads break away from underfoot on Johnny Vegas, and this during a dry period. I'd hate to see what it would be like were there still moisture in the rock.
I lurved how reno was called selfish/noob. Hee. Damn you and your paramedic work!
Leaver biners? Doesn't the name imply that you've "left" them?
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bandycoot
Jan 28, 2005, 4:22 PM
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In reply to: They didn't even migrate to other routes. Someone just took them. At the Tsunami wall all the other routes have leaver biners at the top for ease of cleaning. We just happened to put what looked like nicer biners at the top (Petzel Spirits), but they are acutally junk. I doubt they would hold a leader fall, but I guess that's Karma
First of all, a dropped carabiner is most likely OK. If you don't want to take the risk (and many of us don't) then replace the biner.
Second of all, you apparently think that the carabiners you left at the top of the climb wouldn't hold a leader fall yet you put them there for others to trust their life to? And you're hoping that Karma catches up to someone that stole them to use them? Hrm, which is worse stealing bad biners that some consider trash or leaving something you think might fail for others to climb on? If the carabiners are as bad as you claim then maybe the climbers really did do the community a service by removing trash.
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ikefromla
Jan 28, 2005, 4:29 PM
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he did not mean leaver biners. the routes at tsunami are equipped with chaines and biners, as the local ethic permits (see the Gallery and also Mt Charleston). taking those lowering biners is fucked up... the Tsunami wall is hardly tall enough to host genuin leaver biners. heh.
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caughtinside
Jan 28, 2005, 4:37 PM
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In reply to: And I second Paul. You leave gear on a route - it's free game. Thank you.
Maybe I can explain it to you tard climbers. You've just taken part of the anchor. You know all those trees with webbing around them that you rap from on trad climbs? From now on, I'm going to booty every stinking quick link, rap ring and biner I see on them. Because climbing's about adventure, and I can rap right of the webbing, right?
Because biners on anchors is booty right?
Sheesh. Don't steal.
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caughtinside
Jan 28, 2005, 4:51 PM
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In reply to: Nobody takes them, since that would be dumb and selfish, IMO. I suppose this might be somewhat area dependent, however.
It's actually climber dependent. The chances of biners disappearing from anchors is directly linked to the quantity of n00bies and assholes that frequent the area.
As an aside, you can rap off of webbing. However, it is not ideal, because when you pull the rope, you are going to burn the webbing and make it less safe for those who come after you. Not burning the webbing is a courtesy, kind of like not stealing anchor gear. Ya dig?
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bandycoot
Jan 28, 2005, 4:51 PM
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In reply to: the routes at tsunami are equipped with chaines and biners
If you have chains at the top, why do you need carabiners?
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quiteatingmysteak
Jan 28, 2005, 4:58 PM
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Chalk makes for a different experience when you are climbing in a National Park like JTree, Red Rocks or Yosemite. It's good to climb without (as much as possible :P ) because it eliminates the "handicap" factor. Also, the serenity of untouched nature looks sucky when douched with chalk marks. Give the second climber something to think about!
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jt512
Jan 28, 2005, 5:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Then, we left leaver biners at the top of a climb at Tsunami and someone took them! So what's the problem with this? You left gear. Someone else took it. I fail to see a problem with that. Standard newbie/selfish philosophy. Try to do people a favor by replacing lower-off carabiners at a sport crag, and some dumbass "cleans" them. Are carabiners really that expensive that people have to take old, used ones left at the anchor of a route? Wouldn't you rather clip in and lower off, rather than threading chains? To those that steal biners: Get a life (or a job). Geez you f---ing whiny babies. If you leave gear it is booty.
Addiroids and Reno, you are both missing the point. Those biners (which are better called lower-off biners than leaver biners) were left for the convenience of all climbers. They were not booty, as true leaver biners (which are used to bail midroute) are.
-Jay
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