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newtons_law
Jun 22, 2002, 9:21 PM
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Today I learnd that the loop that attaches the leg loops of a harness to the waist loop is the strongest part of harness its self. One should clip their locking biner trough it when belaying with a grigi or atc. It was suggested to me, while I was climbing in the gym, that I should also clip the gym's biner which is attached to the rope through it as well.
I was clipping the above trough both the leg loop attachment and the waist belt loop as one would do when toproping.
So,my question is this. When toproping would it be better to tie a figure eight through a locking biner and attach it to the loop that connects both the leg lops and waist belt?
I would think It would reduce friction making it safer. That is if the connecting loop is strong enough.
Humph... well if you can figure out what the fruit I am talking about let me know whats up.
cheers
-G. (...perhaps "G" is for gumby)
[ This Message was edited by: newtons_law on 2002-06-22 14:22 ]
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cragstar
Jun 22, 2002, 9:34 PM
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Ive heard that too
I don't tie into it though I just think of it as extra security holding my harness together(I have a fear of heights climbing is just a way to help me get past that plus its fun as hell)
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dustinap
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Jun 22, 2002, 9:38 PM
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Don't tie directly into your belay loop because it'd wear quickly. The sheath rubbing against the belay loop could potentially be bad, especially over time. For top roping inside with a carabiner it's alright to clip into your belay loop. It's probably safer then clipping into the two attachment points on the harness actually, because it hopefully won't crossload the carabiner.
I'd suggest using a DMM belay master biner for this. In the gym, it's okay, but never lead on a setup like this, inside or out.
[ This Message was edited by: dustinap on 2002-06-22 15:04 ]
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dsafanda
Jun 22, 2002, 9:44 PM
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I assume you're talking about the loop on a harness called of all things...a "belay loop". Go figure. It is NOT there to hold your harness together...it's to be used for belaying.
You guys really should learn a bit about your gear before climbing with it.
That said, the answer to your question is no...when top roping or leading a climb you should not attach yourself to the harness by tying in to a biner on the belay loop. It just adds one more point of possible failure. While climbing the biner could easily shift position and cross load during a fall.
Your "belay" loop is fine for belaying but you should tie the rope directly in to your harness when climbing.
Sorry for being a bit harsh. Please keep asking questions when you're not sure of something. It will keep you alive.
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daisuke
Jun 22, 2002, 9:53 PM
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I've done this thing you're suggesting, tie to the biner and then clip the biner to the belay loop. this works and quite well I might add, however it will tighten the knot very quickly and it may become impossible to untie after a while. It's especially useful when there are lots of ppl climbing the same route on the same rope, that way climbers just unclip and pass the rope to the next person. But as was cautioned... I wouldn't lead on something like this no way!
D
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biggernhell
Jun 22, 2002, 10:30 PM
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What?
Never, never, I repeat, NEVER climb without the rope tied DIRECTLY to your harness! Even on a toprope, you can cross load a biner, it can fail, and you can fall and die. I have had seriously heated arguments with boyscout leaders in the southeast about this. It is alot easier than you think to generate 800 lbs or better on a toprope setup. Do you really want to test your lockers cross load strength?
Don't fall and die
[ This Message was edited by: biggernhell on 2002-06-22 15:31 ]
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stevematthys
Jun 22, 2002, 11:11 PM
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i would say tie stright into the two points, not the belay loop. if you use a locking biner and clip the rope into that, and then the binner into your belay loop. there is always a chance that the locking biner could come open (not a very big chance, but a chance none the less).
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dsafanda
Jun 22, 2002, 11:55 PM
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Absolutely...don't tie in to the belay loop for climbing. Use the belay loop for belaying.
As for using a biner any where in this system...
biggernhell is right on about biners. It is much easier to break one than you might think. A small fall with the rope over the gate will end in disaster and a fall with the rope over the spine will generate enough forece to bust the biner in half.
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dustinap
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Jun 23, 2002, 1:13 AM
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sleave on a locking biner, about 500lbs strong I hear.
cross loaded biner, 1,600 to 2200lbs
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kerouac
Jun 23, 2002, 2:16 AM
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newtons_law
NEVER climb being attached to a biner( even the belay master that is designed not to cross load). As mentioned earlier it is one more link that could fail. Always tie the rope to the harness directly through the waist and leg loops. Although the belay loop is strong (20kN or 4500 pounds), tying the rope to the belay loop will cuase a lot of friction. This will put wear on the rope and the harness causing you to have to retire both early.
You also said you were clipping a biner through both the waist and leg loops. DON'T. This causes triaxial loading which could affect the biners strength. There is a good article on this subject in rock&ice, (Aug/Sept 2000 pg.54, Getting loopy by Scott Semple.
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greatgarbanzo
Jun 23, 2002, 4:14 AM
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I never EVER climb attached to the rope with a biner.
Since you are adding a link to the chain you are giving it more chance to fail.
ALLWAYS tie your rope directly to the harness... the Belay Loop is for Belaying!!! not for climbing.
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pbcowboy77
Jun 23, 2002, 5:02 AM
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Yes, listen to the greatbozo,ur uh mmm greatgarbanzo. Anyways, everything he says is correct.
Please climb safe and tell whom ever said this about using a beiner into the belay loop to tie off with that they are scary.
Don't take this the wrong way but maybe you should think about taking a belay class. Most gyms have them.
-Zac
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fisaacs
Aug 17, 2002, 4:51 AM
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Just from a purely engineering standpoint, tying into the 2 points on the harness does several things in your favor that clipping a tied in biner to your belay loop or even to the two points on your harness doesn't do.
First, it causes the weight to be distributed across two points of your harness more directly.
Second, it eliminates some excessive slack that the biner/belay would create. if you're tied tightly into your harness, the only slack in the system is that of the rope and the fitting of your harness. unnecessary slack is dangerous!!
Third, it creates the best redundancy. if the clipped in biner broke or opened, you'd be dead. if your belay loop snapped, you'd be dead. if one of the loops of the harness breaks, you've still got the other one!!!
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drumbum
Aug 19, 2002, 5:20 PM
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When i first started climbing, i was taught to use 2 biners in opposing directions (the gates opposed faced) so when you ope you get an "X". This does allow for less failure when cross loading. Now, i would never attatch to the belay loop, even with this. instead the loops and belts and bells and whistles that are static to the harness.
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fiend
Aug 19, 2002, 5:42 PM
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I don't even belay off my 'hang dog loop'. I clip it when flossing anchors but that's about it, I use mine to hold my harness together.
When was the last time someone snapped a biner from crossloading it on their harness while belaying?
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carnaged
Aug 19, 2002, 7:24 PM
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Wow, reading some pretty harsh words, I agree completley.
kat
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rendog
Aug 19, 2002, 7:45 PM
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gonna have to go with fiend on this one.
I've gotten into hte habit of just leaving my locking beiner on the "hard points" of my harness.
the only time that I rely on my belay loop is for my daisy that I clip to anchors when I'm at the station.
I have no doubt that this may be the strongest potion of my harness, I just have a hard time trusting a single attachment point thats all.
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overlord
Aug 19, 2002, 8:46 PM
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i also use the belay loop only for clipping into anchors. maybe also when i belay a top rope. but in no other case. oh, bhy not use those handy gear loops ?!?
CLIMB ON
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waxman
Aug 21, 2002, 12:46 AM
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I used to run my biner through the leg and waist loop, and then tie a figure-8 and connect them. Now I tie the rope directly into my harness through the same two loops!!
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robscate
Aug 21, 2002, 1:55 AM
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Just a little fuel to the fire:
the BD alpine bod harness and bod harness don't have a belay loop, a good way to prevent inproper use of said device.
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xanx
Aug 21, 2002, 3:33 AM
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that sounds like a good idea: stop the problem at its source: people can't do stupid things with a belay loop if it isn't there! this forces belayers to clip the locking carabiner into the two loops then, eh? as a belay slave at a gym, i can tell you that, even if you have a belay loop, it is much more comfortably the clip the carabiner right into the harness like you tie in; the belay device is then down lower and more comfortable if the person falls.
mike
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rendog
Aug 21, 2002, 7:15 AM
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you betcha waxman
It's a bit crowded in there, but I have the peace of mind knowing that that stuff isn't going anywhere
"D"
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rrrADAM
Aug 21, 2002, 8:25 AM
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It's pretty simple...
Do as the instructions on your harness says:
"Tie into both points, not the belay loop."
The instructions are there for a reason... To keep you alive.
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rrrADAM
Aug 21, 2002, 8:27 AM
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BTW... I was thinking, if I put my shoes on my hands, won't I be able to grip slopers better ???
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vertical_reality
Aug 21, 2002, 3:34 PM
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Geez Adam, you may have stumbled onto something there. Imagine if a glove was made from C4 rubber. It would eliminate the need for chalk and therefore keep the environmentalist happy, the only question is: is it cheating?
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xanx
Aug 21, 2002, 4:13 PM
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i would wonder if c4 or even HF sould be flexible enough so that a glove could be made without seriously limiting hand movement, for, say, tiny crimpers and pockets. I think the thin, thin layer needed to maintain fine hand movements would wear so quickly as to make it impractical. just a though.
[ This Message was edited by: xanx on 2002-08-21 09:14 ]
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fusion
Aug 21, 2002, 7:00 PM
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Hmmm mabey I should melt the rubber from my shoes and coat my fingers with it hee hee
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