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slavetogravity


Mar 21, 2005, 8:09 PM
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I have a proposal for how we RC.com can get a better logo.

Ok, so I’m sure we can all agree that RC.com needs a new/better logo. From what I’ve seen, RC.com has a never ending supply of people who know everything there is to known about climbing rocks, but when it comes to the department of graphic design and commercial advertising, where’re lacking. I agree that it’s important that RC.com has a new and better logo. Something that can easily printed on business cards, t-shirts and magazine adds, and most importantly, a logo that represents us as an international/ multi cultural/ multi lingual climbing community.

So here’s the plan. Every two horse town out there has a high school, college or university that stuffed full of fine art students with artistic talent poring out of their ears. I propose that we create a competition for any wannabee commercial artist willing to submit their ideas for our new logo.

Here’s how it will work. A single page poster for the competition is created and posted on RC.com, then RC.com users print off the completion poster from the site and go to their fine art school, university etc. and put the posters up on local bulletin board for all to see.

On the poster an introduction to what RC.com is, and what we’re all about will be stated. Our old logo/ logos should be on there, as well as rules and suggestion of what we’re looking for should be stated. (Something simple, easily recognizable, our name on it, easily printable, etc)

Once the word is out, submitions will be made the same way people submit photos. Perhaps a link to a (logo competition) section could be created on the title page and the people who have logo ideas, but are not familiar with RC.com, will still be able to find and submit their ideas easily.

Once we have some QUALITY logos submitted a competition could be held and all RC.com users could have their say and cast their vote on the logo that they like

So the question now is. Why the hell should any artist out there want to make an effort submitting their work for our benefit? Simple. Are we or are we not the biggest, best, most frequented rock climbing web site on the net? Hundreds of thousands of people will be seeing their design. On the poster these incentives must be stated. Give numbers on how many people frequent the site, how many people we represent, how many hits a day the site received and how that compares with other web sites. (Saying that you created the logo for Rockclimbing.com would look good on any up and coming commercial artists resume)
If we’re a non-profit site and we got no money to offer, then state that. If we do have a couple of bucks to offer to the winner, even better.

So what do you think?


collegekid


Mar 21, 2005, 8:20 PM
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Sounds good except for the having to print out posters and do work part. I honestly don't care that much about how the logo looks, and I have a feeling most other users don't care too much either.

A friend of mine made an extremely simple logo for the climbing club he started at my school...
http://acs.ucsd.edu/~climbing/


slavetogravity


Mar 21, 2005, 8:37 PM
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Sounds good except for the having to print out posters and do work part.

Yes, pushing the "print" button and pushing thumb tacks in to cork boards is hard work indeed. Thankfully, I don't think it will take that many of us to make this idea a reality.


Partner cliffhanger9
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Mar 21, 2005, 9:07 PM
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So what do you think?


You're kidding right? :roll:


slavetogravity


Mar 21, 2005, 9:14 PM
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Respectfully, not a good idea, slave.
Ultimately, it's a nice exercise for the students and a good way to harvest a large quantity of ineffective work.

Good point.

Oh well, I guess I saw it as a way to create a maximum out put with minimal input. All I know is professional graphic artists cost money. If money is out there, then hiring a professional is definitely the way to go. I only hope money isn't spent to create something that isn't well received. Like the image of an angry brown monkey.


edge


Mar 21, 2005, 9:20 PM
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It goes to branding, positioning, philosophy, how to capture market share, and WHICH market share we want to capture, then we create an Information Architecture.

Martha, I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, however, the Tori Allen marketing bulldozer has made the monkey their own. All monkeys, all of the time, 24-7.

Knowing Tori and her parents, I admire her talents and their prowess, but in my eyes the primate is no longer a viable alternative for any organization trying to make a unique impression. I sold official "USCCA stuffed monkeys" as a fundraiser at the regional level a few years ago. In fact I sold all that they gave me, all to 12/13 year old girls or younger. I also got so many negative comments that I had to send college age men outside for a "think about it and come back in 15 minutes with a normal tone and no obscenity" time out. Such is life.

Coke has the bright idea to make their signature bottle look like the female form. Now, any container, even out of wood, with a perceived set of hooters and a waist is subject to trademark infringement. God love America for it's brand recognition; how I long for radio to make a comeback.

Bottom line for me is that the monkey is A) not unique, B) carries baggage that is perceived as negative or polarizing, and C) he just didn't "do" anything for me.

The last one is a purely personal response from seeing him not only the first time, but multiple times over the weekend.

I would mention that the "gecko" is the official Dover Indoor Climbing Gym mascot and is also off-bounds, however our corporate lawyer (my 16 year old daughter Meaghan, who has participated in 2 years of mock-trial competitions) is more prone to habeas coruptus than habeas corpus.

i.e. she will say anything for a good bribe.


thomasribiere


Mar 21, 2005, 10:51 PM
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first, excuse me for my low drawing abilities, but my hands can't always express what is in my brain...

here's my idea (for skibabeage who wants some philosophy :wink: ) :

I liked the round shape of the monkey, I kept it to make a reference to Mother Earth (Gaïa) who gave us the mountains, cliffs, boulders.

I looked for the common point of every climber : boulderers don't use biners and ropes, mountainers don't use chalk, sport climbers don't use nuts, trad climbers don't use crash pads. But we all use our hands to climb. The hands are also what make Primates and Humans so special. The open hand can also be seen as a sign of friendship between climbers.

I wanted to create a contrast between the rock and what surrounders the rock. A dark tone was chosen for the rock, that the hand grasps. Green (here) or blue or any other color could be used to represent the environment : teh sky, the sea, the forest, the desert... My choice is pretty aggressive for the eyes, but I made it very quickly on paint... :wink: By the way, the contrast is made by the classical yin and yang circle. We could see in it what rock climbing is : the pleasure to climb and the fear of the void, the smoothness (?) of sandstone and the sharpness of granite...


http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/...jpg?phID1PCBj1mSlhF2


Of course, my idea is copyrighted... :D


dingus


Mar 21, 2005, 11:59 PM
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I suspect the more thought put into this, the shittier the outcome.

The California State quarter was pretty much designed using the process outlined in the OP. And most people hate it as a result.

A logo conveys virtually nothing about the company, such as the old Chouinard logo, a C inside a diamond. It need merely be distinctive.

Angular stick figure chalking up on overhanging stick landscape, men at work style. 10 seconds start to finish.

Stick figure, arms raised, on summit. 5 more seconds.

Come on, this isn't rocket science. Just pick something and thick skin it through the resulting windstorm. Like the monkey... whatever it is, just pick it and stick to it. And for godsakes, don't poll your way to a shitty selection! That is the buck stop dodge.

DMT


dingus


Mar 22, 2005, 12:06 AM
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In reply to:
first, excuse me for my low drawing abilities,

You have a perfectly good hand in that logo, why not fist it in a crack, or jam the hand, or finger stack it, or Gaston an edge ... something that would be instantly recognizable to almost any rock climber?

Rock climbing dot com... a fist in a crack, how simple is that??? Or the thumb down karate chop hand jam?

Or a quickdraw with a rope in the basket.

Or a coiled rope.

Come ON, this is a rock climbing site! There are a million jingies and technowidgets to use and any one of them would do...

Just use one of those stupid smiley faces, any of them would work (cept the ones already taken, lol)

DMT


jt512


Mar 22, 2005, 12:31 AM
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Just use one of those stupid smiley faces, any of them would work (cept the ones already taken, lol)

DMT

I think Dingus is onto something. Consider these:

R8^)C

n :shock: b

:deadhorse:

Connection: close :P


overlord


Mar 22, 2005, 11:51 AM
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i catn see tomass logo :?

though i like the hand idea.


nikegirl


Mar 22, 2005, 3:20 PM
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In reply to:
Just use one of those stupid smiley faces, any of them would work (cept the ones already taken, lol)

DMT

I think Dingus is onto something. Consider these:

R8^)C

n :shock: b

:deadhorse:

Connection: close :P



hehe

made me laugh.

I like Andy's (meadors) logo.

I keep my large sticker/logo with Pride on my truck.


~T


grayhghost


Mar 22, 2005, 3:38 PM
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There are no shortcuts if you want to design
a lasting brand. If you ask for amature work
you will recieve amature work, simple as that.

As for the UPS logo, the first logo was designed
by Paul Rand. The story goes that he asked his
young daughter what the logo was and she said
"it's a present, dad." and he knew he had the
solution. The new "slick" logo is an attrocity and
I have no doubt the company will suffer as a result.


dingus


Mar 22, 2005, 3:45 PM
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There are no shortcuts if you want to design
a lasting brand. If you ask for amature work
you will recieve amature work, simple as that.

As for the UPS logo, the first logo was designed
by Paul Rand. The story goes that he asked his
young daughter what the logo was and she said
"it's a present, dad." and he knew he had the
solution. The new "slick" logo is an attrocity and
I have no doubt the company will suffer as a result.

UPS is going to suffer because of a change in their logo, eh?

Do you think they'll go straight to Chapter 7? Should I dump the stock NOW?

DMT

DMT


wanderinfree


Mar 22, 2005, 3:53 PM
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SELL!!! SELL!!! How about forward options on concentrated orange juice?


bustloose


Mar 22, 2005, 4:02 PM
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hey collegekid... nice anchor.

http://us.f3.yahoofs.com/...jpg?phiVEQCB_qKjmbBe


fitzontherocks


Mar 22, 2005, 4:20 PM
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Is RC.com even looking for a logo? I mean somebody "official," the mods or whomever? I've always thought the current logo is weak. And yes, even a simple "non-graphic" logo (like IBM) can communicate something about the company. It does so at a more intuitive level. That's why it's a logo and not a picture. I work at an ad agency with a bunch of very talented professional art directors. (Me, I'm just a lowly copywriter.) Say the word and I can get one produced. Again, that's IF RC is even interested in a new one.


fitzontherocks


Mar 22, 2005, 4:30 PM
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Is RC.com even looking for a logo? I mean somebody "official," the mods or whomever? I've always thought the current logo is weak. And yes, even a simple "non-graphic" logo (like IBM) can communicate something about the company. It does so at a more intuitive level. That's why it's a logo and not a picture. I work at an ad agency with a bunch of very talented professional art directors. (Me, I'm just a lowly copywriter.) Say the word and I can get one produced. Again, that's IF RC is even interested in a new one.

And btw: What's with the monkey? Skibabeage was talking about branding and positioning and philosophy, etc., and then Edge up and says "The monkey's taken!" Am I missing something here?


Partner cliffhanger9
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Mar 22, 2005, 4:57 PM
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In reply to:
Is RC.com even looking for a logo? I mean somebody "official," the mods or whomever? I've always thought the current logo is weak. And yes, even a simple "non-graphic" logo (like IBM) can communicate something about the company. It does so at a more intuitive level. That's why it's a logo and not a picture. I work at an ad agency with a bunch of very talented professional art directors. (Me, I'm just a lowly copywriter.) Say the word and I can get one produced. Again, that's IF RC is even interested in a new one.

And btw: What's with the monkey? Skibabeage was talking about branding and positioning and philosophy, etc., and then Edge up and says "The monkey's taken!" Am I missing something here?

You must have missed it. We released a site design trial this past weekend for 24 hours. The new logo was a monkey.


fitzontherocks


Mar 22, 2005, 5:06 PM
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Clearly, I did miss it. My bad. But hey, monkeys are the shizzle. Haven't you seen those Career Builder spots with the monkeys in the office? Nothing funnier than a monkey in a business suit putting a whoopee cushion on somebody's chair.


dingus


Mar 22, 2005, 5:44 PM
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And yes, even a simple "non-graphic" logo (like IBM) can communicate something about the company. It does so at a more intuitive level.

Please, what intuitive communications are contained in the following logo?

http://www.ibm.com/i/v14/t/ibm-logo.gif

List them for me right here if you would be so kind.

Thanks
DMT


zozo


Mar 22, 2005, 5:49 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
And yes, even a simple "non-graphic" logo (like IBM) can communicate something about the company. It does so at a more intuitive level.

Please, what intuitive communications are contained in the following logo?

http://www.ibm.com/i/v14/t/ibm-logo.gif

List them for me right here if you would be so kind.

Thanks
DMT

Stability
Simplicity
Conservative
Order
Functionality
Quality
Reliability

Here are a few starters.....your welcome.


fitzontherocks


Mar 22, 2005, 6:02 PM
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Innovation. Solidity. Stability. Universality. Technology. What... you can't SEE those things?


dingus


Mar 22, 2005, 6:08 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
And yes, even a simple "non-graphic" logo (like IBM) can communicate something about the company. It does so at a more intuitive level.

Please, what intuitive communications are contained in the following logo?

http://www.ibm.com/i/v14/t/ibm-logo.gif

List them for me right here if you would be so kind.

Thanks
DMT

Stability
Simplicity
Conservative
Order
Functionality
Quality
Reliability

Here are a few starters.....your welcome.

Thanks.

Surely intuition is in the mind of the human, not in the graphics of the logo?

DMT


zozo


Mar 22, 2005, 6:13 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
And yes, even a simple "non-graphic" logo (like IBM) can communicate something about the company. It does so at a more intuitive level.

Please, what intuitive communications are contained in the following logo?

http://www.ibm.com/i/v14/t/ibm-logo.gif

List them for me right here if you would be so kind.

Thanks
DMT

Stability
Simplicity
Conservative
Order
Functionality
Quality
Reliability

Here are a few starters.....your welcome.

Thanks.

Surely intuition is in the mind of the human, not in the graphics of the logo?

DMT

It's in the brand, the graphic doesnt matter squat. WTF is the Nike Swoosh? Unless you were getting to a more esoteric point like is reality an external absolute or is it purely a construct of the mind? :wink:


Partner tim


Mar 22, 2005, 7:15 PM
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The new "slick" logo is an attrocity

Care to elaborate? I find it hard to believe that anyone can look at the monkey and the C-section (current logo) and come to the conclusion that the monkey has poorer production values. The concept may need some tweaking, but out of the succession of logos we've had here, I am flabbergasted to hear that people find the monkey to be the most 'amateur'.

Especially given that the past FOUR logos the site has gone through were designed by professionals. (Which, as you may be aware, does not guarantee wide public embrace or an omniscient clairvoyance about competing brandings of a logo)

In reply to:
and I have no doubt the company will suffer as a result.

Gotta disagree with you there. Our designer can pull a new image out of nowhere in a couple of hours; I've seen it (repeatedly) and the fit & finish is far superior to anything we've seen before. The 'slick' part is not, IMHO, the problem here. The problem is that it's a slick implementation of a concept that was not the best representation for our identity at this time.


dingus


Mar 22, 2005, 7:31 PM
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Unless you were getting to a more esoteric point like is reality an external absolute or is it purely a construct of the mind? :wink:

No. My point is the IBM logo conveys NOTHING beyond the initials of the company. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Everything you wrote came from your head, not the logo.

DMT


jt512


Mar 22, 2005, 7:31 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
And yes, even a simple "non-graphic" logo (like IBM) can communicate something about the company. It does so at a more intuitive level.

Please, what intuitive communications are contained in the following logo?

http://www.ibm.com/i/v14/t/ibm-logo.gif

List them for me right here if you would be so kind.

Thanks
DMT

Stability
Simplicity
Conservative
Order
Functionality
Quality
Reliability

Here are a few starters.....your welcome.

Thanks.

Surely intuition is in the mind of the human, not in the graphics of the logo?

DMT

It's in the brand, the graphic doesnt matter squat. WTF is the Nike Swoosh? Unless you were getting to a more esoteric point like is reality an external absolute or is it purely a construct of the mind? :wink:

You guys who don't think a logo communicates a brand's image are totally out to lunch. Yeah, even, or especially, the Nike swoosh, a streamline form implying speed. Ever watch Roadrunner cartoons? What is the shape of the whirls of dust that the Roadrunner leaves in his wake? Comapre and contrast to the Nike swoosh. Comapre and contrast to the IBM logo. Which implies speed? Which implies stability?

-Jay


zozo


Mar 22, 2005, 7:37 PM
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In reply to:
Unless you were getting to a more esoteric point like is reality an external absolute or is it purely a construct of the mind? :wink:

No. My point is the IBM logo conveys NOTHING beyond the initials of the company. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Everything you wrote came from your head, not the logo.

DMT

If that's the case then IBM sure got ripped off considering the millions they spent on developing their logo and positiong their brand.

Ask their marketing reps Dingus Im sure they would tell you you dont know what your talking about. But that's ok.


jt512


Mar 22, 2005, 7:38 PM
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In reply to:
Unless you were getting to a more esoteric point like is reality an external absolute or is it purely a construct of the mind? :wink:

No. My point is the IBM logo conveys NOTHING beyond the initials of the company. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Everything you wrote came from your head, not the logo.

DMT

But how come "speed," lightheartedness," and "tender loving care" didn't come from their heads when they saw the logo? Tough question in this case because the brand is known; but in blind comparisons (blind meaning the brand is unknown) of new logos that I have conducted, there is no question that different logos evoke different images.

-Jay


slavetogravity


Mar 22, 2005, 7:46 PM
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Ok, in keeping with the idea of finding an acutall solution to this problem. Here's another thoght.
http://www.needlesports.com/...Hrkk__Hrkk__138.html

Has anyone here heard of a woman named Tami Knight? She's a cartoonist who makes a living making fun of people like us. She's written illustrations for John Long's books, as well as hundreds of cartoons that have been published in Rock and Ice and Climbing Magazine. Her images are widely recognized withing the climbing world, and anything that Tami could come up with I'd gladly be behind. Perhaps our logo could be an illustration of one of her climbing rats pointing and grimacing while saying "Logo, we don't need no stinken' logo!"
At the very least it would show that we have a sense of humour.


pmyche


Mar 22, 2005, 7:51 PM
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tim, I think grayhghost was referring to the revised UPS logo, not the monkey.


dingus


Mar 22, 2005, 8:04 PM
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In reply to:
but in blind comparisons (blind meaning the brand is unknown) of new logos that I have conducted, there is no question that different logos evoke different images.

-Jay

The images of which have nothing to do with the brand.

DMT


dingus


Mar 22, 2005, 8:17 PM
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If that's the case then IBM sure got ripped off considering the millions they spent on developing their logo and positiong their brand.

If you sincerely think IBM's logo conveys 'reliability' all by itself then we are just going to have to leave it at that.

Cheers and thanks for your thoughts on the subject
DMT


Partner tim


Mar 22, 2005, 8:19 PM
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In reply to:
Ok, in keeping with the idea of finding an acutall solution to this problem. Here's another thoght.
http://www.needlesports.com/...Hrkk__Hrkk__138.html

Has anyone here heard of a woman named Tami Knight? She's a cartoonist who makes a living making fun of people like us. She's written illustrations for John Long's books, as well as hundreds of cartoons that have been published in Rock and Ice and Climbing Magazine. Her images are widely recognized withing the climbing world, and anything that Tami could come up with I'd gladly be behind. Perhaps our logo could be an illustration of one of her climbing rats pointing and grimacing while saying "Logo, we don't need no stinken' logo!"
At the very least it would show that we have a sense of humour.


Genius! My only concern is whether we can make it worth her while. Tami is one of the few people who could really kick ass with this in terms of concept and execution.

I'll put out some feelers and see what happens.

Thanks! (smacks head -- why didn't I think of this?!?)


zozo


Mar 22, 2005, 8:26 PM
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If you sincerely think IBM's logo conveys 'reliability' all by itself then we are just going to have to leave it at that.

Cheers and thanks for your thoughts on the subject
DMT

I guess I'll say it again, but this is the last time Dingus.....

In reply to:
It's in the brand, the graphic doesnt matter squat.


fitzontherocks


Mar 22, 2005, 8:49 PM
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Well said, pmyche. And Slave, I would vote against having a cartoon or illustration as a logo, because a cartoon or illustration is, well, a cartoon or illustration. A logo is a symbol. And Dingus, are you just bored today? "The images of which have nothing to do with the brand." ??? The brand is EXACTLY that... images... whether expressed through line, shape, shading, typography, or pure-dee emotion. And yes, they're communicated through millions of executions (ads, spots, labels, editorial, PR, colors, material choice, product offerings, repetition, etc). I've only been a member of RC for a couple of years, but one poster indicated there have been FOUR logos??? That's part of the problem (again, if there even is a problem). Sheesh, maybe I'm bored today.


Partner tim


Mar 22, 2005, 10:00 PM
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In reply to:
one poster indicated there have been FOUR logos???

Yup. The problem is simple -- none of them represented the site in exactly the way we wanted. The end result is (supposed to be) an image that represents what the site is/does/etc.

In reply to:
That's part of the problem (again, if there even is a problem). Sheesh, maybe I'm bored today.

The substantive problems have more to do with usability and unimplemented functionality than a logo. The people who came out in droves to engage in sport flaming when the logo was test-deployed get as much respect as they give. Meanwhile, the exercise has generated a lot of good ideas and much useful feedback from those who weren't simply trolls... all of which will be put to use.

I don't see this as a problem :-)

Incidentally, if there's any voting at all to be done, it will be by the staff and perhaps the Partners of the site. Those who have the most at stake get the most say, although everyone is free to opine however they like.

I'm not in favor of design by committee. It typically produces a lowest-common-denominator effect, eg. the color beige.


fitzontherocks


Mar 22, 2005, 10:16 PM
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Tim, you're dead on. I make ads for a living, and in the words of Tim McElligott of Fallon McElligott, "having a committee approve a big idea is like sentencing a person to be bitten to death by ducks." But I'll offer my professional assistance if you ever need it. Just drop me a pm. Cheers.


dingus


Mar 22, 2005, 10:21 PM
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And Dingus, are you just bored today? "The images of which have nothing to do with the brand." ??? The brand is EXACTLY that... images...

Maybe if you had included the part where jt512 said the subjects didn't know the brand you might have a better foundation upon which to build your ridicule. Snipping me like that is low brow.

DMT


jt512


Mar 22, 2005, 10:29 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Ok, in keeping with the idea of finding an acutall solution to this problem. Here's another thoght.
http://www.needlesports.com/...Hrkk__Hrkk__138.html

Has anyone here heard of a woman named Tami Knight? She's a cartoonist who makes a living making fun of people like us. She's written illustrations for John Long's books, as well as hundreds of cartoons that have been published in Rock and Ice and Climbing Magazine. Her images are widely recognized withing the climbing world, and anything that Tami could come up with I'd gladly be behind. Perhaps our logo could be an illustration of one of her climbing rats pointing and grimacing while saying "Logo, we don't need no stinken' logo!"
At the very least it would show that we have a sense of humour.


Genius! My only concern is whether we can make it worth her while. Tami is one of the few people who could really kick ass with this in terms of concept and execution.

I'll put out some feelers and see what happens.

Thanks! (smacks head -- why didn't I think of this?!?)

From what I've gathered about Tammi's sense of humor, she' might just go along with my suggestion:

n :shock: b.com

-Jay


jt512


Mar 22, 2005, 10:40 PM
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Meanwhile, the exercise has generated a lot of good ideas and much useful feedback from those who weren't simply trolls... all of which will be put to use.

Translation: The much-lauded and long-awaited rollout of the redesign was an abyssmal failure. Practically every element -- color scheme, brand positioning, layout, and functionality -- were rejected outright by users.

So now we're calling it a test.

-Jay


cragcrawler


Mar 22, 2005, 10:46 PM
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Sounds good except for the having to print out posters and do work part. I honestly don't care that much about how the logo looks, and I have a feeling most other users don't care too much either.

I beg to differ with college kid. I think it is a great idea. And I think alot of users would care, and would love to participate. Maybe if college kid did some work he would get good grades in college :D (No offense college kid just goofen with ya)


fitzontherocks


Mar 22, 2005, 10:54 PM
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Dingus, sorry if you thought I was "snipping" at you. I'm not. I agree completely with jt's comment, "in blind comparisons (blind meaning the brand is unknown) of new logos that I have conducted, there is no question that different logos evoke different images." Graphic images DO evoke different perceptions. I didn't know much about fine art, but when I saw Picasso's "Guernica," I was moved and scared and felt all down and stuff. The "bored" comment was simply because you seem to have an acute and emotional interest in this subject and it surprised me. When all's said and done, it's just a logo. But it does mean something. Can we still be friends?


Partner tim


Mar 22, 2005, 10:59 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Meanwhile, the exercise has generated a lot of good ideas and much useful feedback from those who weren't simply trolls... all of which will be put to use.

Translation: The much-lauded and long-awaited rollout of the redesign was an abyssmal failure. Practically every element -- color scheme, brand positioning, layout, and functionality -- were rejected outright by users.

Which is to say, no different than any other change in the history of the site. People here are attached firmly to the status quo, and the status quo (in this case) sucks.

The feedback that was genuine will be put to use to come up with a stronger offering. The rest will be discarded.

No one who's afraid to take a fall now and then is ever likely to lead at their limits. No one who is afraid to fail now and then is going to produce much more than simpering groupthink.

The astounding thing to me is that people react as if we've printed and paid for a run of 50,000 or 100,000 brochures and mailed them out. We didn't. It cost us nothing to deploy it. It cost us nothing to roll it back. It will cost us nothing (or very close to it) to improve and re-deploy the designs until we get it right.

The lack of improvements to the existing design over the past 3 years is the only abysmal failure I see here. The fear of being embarassed and the unwillingness to take chances, for a site dedicated to a sport that revolves around taking chances, is repulsive.

The current design is a piece of shit. Failure to replace it with something better is the only thing that I have any fear of.


Partner tim


Mar 22, 2005, 11:02 PM
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From what I've gathered about Tammi's sense of humor, she' might just go along with my suggestion:

n :shock: b.com

Peoples' sense of humor tends to change a bit when they're getting paid to do something other than editorialize. Not everyone views Making a Statement (tm) as their highest calling.

Regardless, I'd be interested to see what emerges. If the shoe fits...


fitzontherocks


Mar 22, 2005, 11:05 PM
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NO, TIM! Please, Dear God, don't use a cartoon or illustration as a logo. I beg of you, man, in the name of all that is good and decent.


Partner tim


Mar 22, 2005, 11:08 PM
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NO, TIM! Please, Dear God, don't use a cartoon or illustration as a logo. I beg of you, man, in the name of all that is good and decent.

Why not? If it works. Mammut, Trango, Prana, and Metolius seem to be getting away with it just fine.

I'm so sick of the tarted-up-text treatment I can't even articulate it.

At one point I looked into licensing the Gumby image from Heat Marketing. Only problem is, it was too pricey...

http://www.heatlicensing.com/...s/GUMBY_FAN_CLUB.jpg


jt512


Mar 22, 2005, 11:10 PM
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No one who's afraid to take a fall now and then is ever likely to lead at their limits. No one who is afraid to fail now and then is going to produce much more than simpering groupthink.

Agreed. There's no embarrassment in trying something that doesn't work. So why call it marketing research after it has failed?

Speaking of marketing research, it seems that one major mistake that was made was that none was done before the rollout. Marketing research is not 'design by committee'; it's the systematic gathering of feedback from the intended target audiance. A little beta testing would have revealed all the problems that the full-scale rollout did, and would have avoided the management of this site from appearing to be in over their heads.

-Jay


Partner tim


Mar 22, 2005, 11:14 PM
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Agreed. There's no embarrassment in trying something that doesn't work. So why call it marketing research after it has failed?

Because, fundamentally, the deployment was for the sake of showing it to people at RRR (including advertisers and gear manufacturers) and soliciting their reactions. I was anticipating that we'd need to make improvements to the design; I didn't necessarily anticipate the sheer number of desirable changes!

In reply to:
Speaking of marketing research, it seems that one major mistake that was made was that none was done before the rollout. Marketing research is not 'design by committee'; it's the systematic gathering of feedback from the intended target audiance.

To some extent, both the month-long survey we conducted in November, and the deployment at RRR, were meant to do just that. In the Partners' forum, it was pointed out that we ought to have involved them a bit more, so we'll see about doing an eBay-style "optional rollout" for the next round of changes. That should be a bit more systematic and provide a more gradual transition to an improved design than our initial stab!


In reply to:
A little beta testing would have revealed all the problems that the full-scale rollout did, and would have avoided the management of this site from appearing to be in over their heads.

We're always in over our heads. That's the fun part ;-)


zozo


Mar 22, 2005, 11:15 PM
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http://www.gdoss.com/knowledge/ia.htm


Partner tim


Mar 22, 2005, 11:18 PM
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I take it you read useit.com for fun and excitement, then?

How about IBM -- they spent a bit on usability consultants and guidelines. How'd they fare?

http://www.baekdal.com/...bility/ibmusability/

IA is a field rife with buzzwords and charlatans. The more interesting work (IMHO) is being done in specific areas:

http://www.baekdal.com/...able-XMLHttpRequest/

The last thing I want a site built and run by volunteers, serving an anarchic community, is a strictly defined 'process'. This isn't GM. (for example, we didn't lose a billion dollars last year... we made money)


zozo


Mar 22, 2005, 11:27 PM
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Woah sorry there Tim. I was under the assumption you wanted a site that actually worked the way you hoped it would. But apparently people arnt planning or thinking before they dive into something anymore. I guess things are passing me by.

My bad - carry on.


jt512


Mar 22, 2005, 11:29 PM
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In reply to:
Agreed. There's no embarrassment in trying something that doesn't work. So why call it marketing research after it has failed?

Because, fundamentally, the deployment was for the sake of showing it to people at RRR...

I think that was a tactical mistake. I do not think an unfinished product should ever be revealed until the bugs have been worked out. And the redesign wasn't anywhere near that point yet. The first impression is too important. You would have better off showing them concept boards, which by definition are for evaluation and feedback purposes.

In reply to:
In reply to:
Speaking of marketing research, it seems that one major mistake that was made was that none was done before the rollout. Marketing research is not 'design by committee'; it's the systematic gathering of feedback from the intended target audiance.

To some extent, both the month-long survey we conducted in November, and the deployment at RRR, were meant to do just that.

See my comments above, but I think we're on the same page.

In reply to:
In reply to:
A little beta testing would have revealed all the problems that the full-scale rollout did, and would have avoided the management of this site from appearing to be in over their heads.

We're always in over our heads. That's the fun part ;-)

I understand fully, but that's not an impression you want the advertisers to get.

-Jay


skinner


Mar 23, 2005, 12:00 AM
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I think that was a tactical mistake. I do not think an unfinished product should ever be revealed until the bugs have been worked out.
I disagree. I think running a new format and getting user reactions and comments prior to bringing it to a finished product is not only a valuable way of testing, but done routinely.. It's called "Beta".
Why put the time and effort into bringing a test version of anything to a finished product state, only to find it does not function as expected or the masses object for whatever reason?
I also think it's virtually impossible to deliver a "bug free" product without releasing it for real-world testing. Take any Microsoft product for an example.. bug free? :roll:

    I appreciate the fact that it "didn't cost anything", but am well aware of the amount of work involved in re-working the site. The colors didn't really bother me one way or the other, and the logo was well done. Personally however I would prefer to see a logo that would somehow convey "Rock Climbing" at first glance, even in the absence of and text stating such.
    <---All of the above is just my personal opinion--->
    I for one appreciate the efforts of Tim (and whoever else is helping) to re-work and improve the site. I can only assume that a lot of time and hard work goes into just maintaining the site. Considering it pays so well, I doubt that you have people beating down your door to take your place.
    Anyways.. Thanks!


    grayhghost


    Mar 23, 2005, 12:25 AM
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    How is Lucent Technologies doing these days Dingus?
    They went through a complete redesign and came up
    with one of the worst graphic mistakes ever. Their logo
    consisted of a hand-drawn red circle which was refered
    to by their employees as "the red *sshole."

    Now let's look at TAZO tea. A brand new tea comes onto
    the market trying to take market share away from
    Celestial Seasonings as well as a whole host of other tea
    makers. They do this through inovative "hippy" looking
    design and come away as one of the fastest growing
    specialty food manufacturers.

    The IBM logo is a direct reflection of a solid object, a
    motherboard, as well as hinting at all of the qualities
    described by the other posters. But the one main
    question you must ask is, how many times has the IBM
    logo needed to be revamped? Never. This in the face of
    the exploding technology field it is based in.

    Dingus, if you don't think we live in a visual culture then
    I feel bad for you.


    grayhghost


    Mar 23, 2005, 12:28 AM
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    Oh yeah, TIM,
    Do not go with a Tami Knight illustration/cartoon.
    One of the tests of a great logo is if you can put
    it on the head of a pin and still recognize it.
    Nike, IBM and Coke can all do this, but a cartoon
    rat (and don't get me wrong, I LOVE Tami Knight)
    cannot do this.


    Partner tim


    Mar 23, 2005, 12:53 AM
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    In reply to:
    Woah sorry there Tim. I was under the assumption you wanted a site that actually worked the way you hoped it would. But apparently people arnt planning or thinking before they dive into something anymore.


    3 months of thinking, requirements planning, and concepting went into that design (edit: more like, we engaged in said activities off and on for 3 months prior to the relaunch...) I don't believe that the results were anywhere near what they should have been, and the primary reason was lack of effective user input and the desire for a Hollywood-style 'hard launch' from the principals.

    Someone previously mentioned that our users are our biggest asset. I agree. We aren't a large corporation with a ton of employees. We're a bunch of committed part-timers who cannot possibly do as thorough a job of inspecting designs as thousands of users can.

    In 24 hours, the redesign effort got more testing and feedback than in the previous 3 months. No amount of planning can substitute for that. (Also note that the requirements were established prior to the redesign -- but as the deployment showed, several were overlooked or de-emphasized. I'm not suggesting that thoroughness is to be disparaged. What I'm suggesting is that the users of the site willingly participate in critiquing the design and its usability to a much greater degree than the staff can possibly do given our limited time and numbers.)


    Partner tim


    Mar 23, 2005, 12:57 AM
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    In reply to:
    Oh yeah, TIM,
    Do not go with a Tami Knight illustration/cartoon.
    One of the tests of a great logo is if you can put
    it on the head of a pin and still recognize it.
    Nike, IBM and Coke can all do this, but a cartoon
    rat (and don't get me wrong, I LOVE Tami Knight)
    cannot do this.

    Very good point. One of the strengths of the monkey was that it passed this test with flying colors (the current logo does not). The weakness, I think, is a lack of conceptual focus and a thorough consideration of what the logo is supposed to represent. Anyone who feels the production values were not up to spec from a professional standpoint is out of their mind!


    voltzwgn


    Mar 23, 2005, 12:59 AM
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    I'd vote for using WonderWomen's new tattoo design for the logo, check it out it simple timeless and deep all at the same time. I'd insert the picture here but I'm just not that good maybe someone else can do it.


    sixter


    Mar 23, 2005, 1:03 AM
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    One of the tests we had to do when learning logo design was to reduce it to the space of 1/2" square. Now I am not saying this should be used as a logo, but this is something I came up with for use in one of my web design projects in school.

    http://img.photobucket.com/...0/sixter/climber.jpg

    A logo should look GREAT and be recognised when reduced down. Difficult with text logos, and detailed line work. A simple, clean, easy to recognise logo should be used.

    My current personal mark.

    http://img.photobucket.com/.../sixter/neko_opt.jpg


    phlsphr


    Mar 23, 2005, 1:54 AM
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    In reply to:
    People here are attached firmly to the status quo, and the status quo (in this case) sucks.

    The current design is a piece of s---. Failure to replace it with something better is the only thing that I have any fear of.

    Perhaps this belongs in a seperate thread, but I'd be interested to hear more specifically what you do not like about the current design. Just calling it names isn't enough. Spell out just what you think is lacking. As a thought experiment, imagine that the brown thing was the status quo, and this was the beta--what would you or others be complaining about? By the way--has ANYONE complained that they lost the brown thing?

    I'm all for taking measured risks. Sometimes risks fail.


    Partner tim


    Mar 23, 2005, 2:21 AM
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    In reply to:
    In reply to:
    People here are attached firmly to the status quo, and the status quo (in this case) sucks.

    The current design is a piece of s---. Failure to replace it with something better is the only thing that I have any fear of.

    Perhaps this belongs in a seperate thread, but I'd be interested to hear more specifically what you do not like about the current design. Just calling it names isn't enough. Spell out just what you think is lacking.

    The current design fails in several respects:

    1) information density
    2) usability ("do what I mean")
    3) efficiency (it is very bloated HTML)
    4) intuitiveness (for first-time visitors)
    5) search engine visibility and crawlability

    Any one of the above is a showstopper. To hit all five is a command performance in the arena of fuckups. It's simply unacceptable for the existing design to be permanent.


    In reply to:
    As a thought experiment, imagine that the brown thing was the status quo, and this was the beta--what would you or others be complaining about? By the way--has ANYONE complained that they lost the brown thing?

    Yes. Several directly to me.

    In reply to:
    I'm all for taking measured risks. Sometimes risks fail.

    Indeed. Viewed as an individual deployment, the 'brown thing' of this past weekend was a failure. Viewed as a process of overcoming the inertia of 3 years of stasis, renovating the front page, rethinking assumptions about what's right, and shaking things up, I claim it was a resounding success. The eventual product will thus be stronger than if we had not taken a risk, and the marginal cost is very close to zero, so I am not unhappy with this temporary setback.


    Partner phaedrus


    Mar 23, 2005, 5:23 AM
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    For what it's worth, I have yet to be able to see the new logo everyone is talking about. I've cleared my cache and history, and just about anything else I can think of to no effect. Anyone else having that issue?


    weasel


    Mar 23, 2005, 6:55 AM
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    Logos are an interesting thing. It's not even so much as what they are, but the simple fact that they stand for a certain company. Take the Nike swoosh for instance, maybe I'm missing something, but that has absolutely nothing to do with basketball. Or any other sport for that matter (well maybe hockey or something).

    I'll only use climbing company logos in my examples, but I'd like to point out a few things.

    Logos that we, as climbers, instantly recongnize are:
    Black diamond, it's simple, has nothing to do with climbing but entirely to do with the name.

    Petzl, showing that it's possible to make a logo totally recognizable with just text and an oval around it. Trango also uses this principal, probably because of the short name.

    Then there's La Sportiva, Montrail and MSR that have a mountain in the backround symbolizing what they make their gear for, but also the company name. Now with MSR, I think it's also because the name is MOUNTAIN Safety Research.

    Now, most of these are brand names. Names that usually are pretty irrelevent to what they make/do. rc.com doesn't exactly have a name to call ourselves by. Sure we use rc.com or rockclimbing.com, but that's a website address, not a name that can be used in a logo. So instead of something like Mammut, where it's a name and a picture, we have to come up with something like the Nike swoosh or the Black Diamond diamond.

    You simpley have to disect logos and their meaning. Once you understand them, you can make a successful one. Of course that isn't the only thing, but also proliferation. If the current rc.com logo were in every Climbing mag, every R&I mag, and on every other helmet of the guys at the ice park, it would be every bit successful despite how crusty it is.

    10 of 18 climbing company logos I'm looking at include an abstract (there's another important aspect) object in the logo relating to the name.
    Examples:
    BD
    Arc'Teryx
    Mammut
    Montrail (to ME that's a mountain with a trail on it)
    Mountain Hard Wear
    MSR
    Osprey
    The North Face (I think so)

    Anyway, I'm not trying to say I know what makes a good logo, but I think at least I begin to understand it. Consider what I've said when thinking of of a logo idea.
    What I first thought of but I know most people won't like because of the "spiritual" side it's supposed to have, was a silluette of someone climbing slightly overlapped by a screenshot of a forum window from a computer. It encompasses climbing and the fact that this is a website. We don't make shoes, gear, or clothes. We type on an electronic version of a conversation. I don't think we should forget that.

    I apologise for making this hard to read, I'm not a very good writer.

    Anyway, just my two cents.


    thomasribiere


    Mar 23, 2005, 7:59 AM
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    sixter proposed an image. I did. What if you stopped arguing and then take a pen and try to design something?


    phlsphr


    Mar 23, 2005, 1:10 PM
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    Sixter makes an important point. A good logo shoujld still hold up when reduced. For this site, a good logo will do this while at the same time tying in to rockclimbing (and not favoring one type of climbing over another).

    In reply to:
    One of the tests we had to do when learning logo design was to reduce it to the space of 1/2" square. Now I am not saying this should be used as a logo, but this is something I came up with for use in one of my web design projects in school.

    http://img.photobucket.com/...0/sixter/climber.jpg

    A logo should look GREAT and be recognised when reduced down. Difficult with text logos, and detailed line work. A simple, clean, easy to recognise logo should be used.

    Here's a similar logo my wife (she's the graphic designer) and I worked up for the Ohio Climber's Association:

    http://www.ohioclimbers.org/oca/art/OCA_logo.gif

    For what its worth, my vote would be for something like this. A simple logo that features a climber that holds up well even when reduced.


    phlsphr


    Mar 23, 2005, 1:38 PM
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    In reply to:

    The current design fails in several respects:

    1) information density
    2) usability ("do what I mean")
    3) efficiency (it is very bloated HTML)
    4) intuitiveness (for first-time visitors)
    5) search engine visibility and crawlability

    Any one of the above is a showstopper. To hit all five is a command performance in the arena of f---. It's simply unacceptable for the existing design to be permanent.

    I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 1 (too much information on a page on the current site? too little?). 2 and 4 are related. One problem with the brown site was that by removing the left-hand sidebar you were taking a step backwards in terms of usability. One good measure for you is how many clicks it takes the user to get to where he/she want to go. One the current site I can get to, say, a listing of the routes on endless wall, in 3 clicks. The brown design added two more clicks--click on routes, click on n. american part of map--making it less easily usable and intuitive. I think everyone is all for improvements to 3 and 5. One simple measure of 3 is how long it takes pages to load. Unfortunately the new design seemed slower. Finally two items you don't mention are

    6) Aesthetic Values (does the site look good?)

    and

    7) Comercial value (does the site generate advertising revenue?).

    Reading betweent the lines from what you have posted it seems to me that what was being tried primarily was this--eliminate the side bar and make the advertising more prominent in order to generate more advertising revenue. I think ultimately when folks have more time to think about it, that's a bigger issue than the monkey or the brown color. I didn't like the monkey or the color, but I really didn't like the fact that usability was being sacrificed for the sake of more ads.


    Partner tradman


    Mar 23, 2005, 2:31 PM
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    [quote="tim"]
    The current design fails in several respects:

    1) information density
    2) usability ("do what I mean")
    3) efficiency (it is very bloated HTML)
    4) intuitiveness (for first-time visitors)
    5) search engine visibility and crawlability

    Any one of the above is a showstopper. To hit all five is a command performance in the arena of f---. It's simply unacceptable for the existing design to be permanent.
    In reply to:

    Excellent - You've already identified the main problems with the site, Tim. All that remains is for you to implement whatever solutions seem best to you, and for you to remember that you can't please all of the users all of the time. The silent majority assert their assent.

    As for the branding, those who say branding and design is simple are absolutely right. Those who say it is complex on the other hand are also absolutely right.

    Good design is like good climbing; even though it's excruciatingly difficult, it looks effortless.

    Having participated in very successful rebranding projects - as an example, The Macallan whisky, a project which went so well that nobody even noticed it had happened but sales went up anyway - and very unsuccessful ones - as an example, I was involved in the rollout of BP's current logo, which was universally slated in every newspaper on earth - I can honestly say that I don't think there's a hard and fast rule for what makes for success.

    I would say this though: if you don't hire a professional, don't expect the result to look professional. The questions Martha suggested be asked way back at the start of the thread are the sort of questions that no professional should even be able to start designing a logo without asking.

    Stuff about sizes, colours and positions is minor. Sort out what it has to do and make it do it effortlessly. The rest will follow.


    jt512


    Mar 23, 2005, 5:37 PM
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    In reply to:
    In reply to:
    I think that was a tactical mistake. I do not think an unfinished product should ever be revealed until the bugs have been worked out.
    I disagree. I think running a new format and getting user reactions and comments prior to bringing it to a finished product is not only a valuable way of testing, but done routinely.. It's called "Beta".
    Why put the time and effort into bringing a test version of anything to a finished product state, only to find it does not function as expected or the masses object for whatever reason?
    I also think it's virtually impossible to deliver a "bug free" product without releasing it for real-world testing. Take any Microsoft product for an example.. bug free? :roll:

      You missed the point, but that's par for the course around here.

      In reply to:
      I appreciate the fact that it "didn't cost anything"...

      Oh, it cost alright. It would have been interesting to do a pre-post survey of potential advertisers on their image of this site and its management before and after they viewed the redesign. I suspect that management now has a bit of damage control work to do.

      -Jay


      jt512


      Mar 23, 2005, 5:38 PM
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      In reply to:
      In reply to:
      I think that was a tactical mistake. I do not think an unfinished product should ever be revealed until the bugs have been worked out.
      I disagree. I think running a new format and getting user reactions and comments prior to bringing it to a finished product is not only a valuable way of testing, but done routinely.. It's called "Beta".
      Why put the time and effort into bringing a test version of anything to a finished product state, only to find it does not function as expected or the masses object for whatever reason?
      I also think it's virtually impossible to deliver a "bug free" product without releasing it for real-world testing. Take any Microsoft product for an example.. bug free? :roll:

        You missed the point, but that's par for the course around here.

        In reply to:
        I appreciate the fact that it "didn't cost anything"...

        Oh, it cost alright. It would have been interesting to do a pre-post survey of potential advertisers on their image of this site and its management before and after they viewed the redesign. I suspect that management now has a bit of damage control work to do.

        -Jay


        jt512


        Mar 23, 2005, 5:56 PM
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        In reply to:
        In reply to:
        In reply to:
        People here are attached firmly to the status quo, and the status quo (in this case) sucks.

        The current design is a piece of s---. Failure to replace it with something better is the only thing that I have any fear of.

        Perhaps this belongs in a seperate thread, but I'd be interested to hear more specifically what you do not like about the current design. Just calling it names isn't enough. Spell out just what you think is lacking.

        The current design fails in several respects:

        1) information density
        2) usability ("do what I mean")
        3) efficiency (it is very bloated HTML)
        4) intuitiveness (for first-time visitors)
        5) search engine visibility and crawlability

        I would add that the climbing FAQ needs to be fully developed and more visibly positioned as well. If you want people to actually use the FAQ rather than the forum for simple questions, then it seems to me that the FAQ should have nearly the same visiblility as the forums.

        -Jay


        trevor
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        Mar 24, 2005, 4:57 AM
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        I have been through this logo design process so many times with RC.com that I have lost count. I've hired a couple designers and a new logo is nearly impossible to create.

        The first problem is that the name, although very popular in the search engines, is a really long one!
        R O C K C L I M B I N G . C O M
        Try getting this into a thumbnail! We tried using an abbreviation, but RC just reminds me of RC Cola.

        Second, we are using a medium (web) that really is quite hard to represent a large pretty logo. I personally think the current logo in all it's glory is hard to beat. Good job Andy Meadors!! In fact, I never felt we needed to switch, but I didn't make this decision.

        The third problem is that climbers come from all sorts of background and styles (desert, mountain, beach, tropic, ice) (trad, sport, bouldering, aid). That means you can't do anything that would represent one of these because it automatically alienates the rest. In addition, have you ever seen a really small carabiner on a logo? It looks horrible! Besides we don't make biners, so why would one be on our logo?

        Another way of doing the logo is just in a unique font. The current one is a good example of that. Here is another example:
        http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=50881
        (this is two versions of the same idea, NOT one logo)

        The last option that I'm familiar with is to create a unique shape or animal that is distinctly different. The reality is that it doesn't have to be perfect. How many of you thought you had the best high school mascot in the world? Looking back ten years later, was that mascot really so cool. Most are cheesy art school projects. But atleast it gave everyone something to rally behind regardless if the nose was too big or the tail too fat.

        I would really like to see a contest and let's vote on the best option. I'll throw in some cash personally for this. Maybe we can have a few other volunteers pledge some money for the winner.

        One final thought. Most logos need a while to grow on you. They also need to be seen in different settings to really work. And most people can't handle change when it comes to marketing and branding, even when the old was really bad. Finally, not everyone is going to love or even like the winning logo design. I figure if 50% or more like it then it's an amazing logo.

        Trevor


        Partner coldclimb


        Mar 24, 2005, 8:04 AM
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        Trevor, and whoever on the site management team is in charge of this, www.worth1000.com is an awesome site for such logo contests. You can go there and hook up with a corporate contest, and get input from a ton of people who are rather good with graphics, and usually wind up with a decent logo. Check the current ones out here.

        What one COULD do is start a contest there, and offer a link to it here, so that anybody here who wants to compete could go there and submit, but we'd also get input from a wider range of people with more experience in the graphic arts. Might be a good option to consider. :)

        Of course we don't really need a contest if we've got a designated designer, unless they don't mind handing off that project and simply supervising the contest and deciding which logo to use or whatever. We COULD do a contest and get good results, I think, but we don't need to, since that part is covered already. I would hate to be stepping on anyone's toes, cause that's never fun.


        Partner russman


        Mar 24, 2005, 2:51 PM
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        In reply to:
        Trevor, and whoever on the site management team is in charge of this, www.worth1000.com is an awesome site for such logo contests. You can go there and hook up with a corporate contest, and get input from a ton of people who are rather good with graphics, and usually wind up with a decent logo. Check the current ones out here.

        Holy KRap John...that is an awesome site.....pretty cool idea..looks liek you coudl set up the time period to run like 2 weeks to submit and then to vote just afterwards.....the Land Shark Co. had soem great logos and designs....

        The MGT team could set all teh guidlines....
          easily shunk down in size and recognizable...
          minimal colors (works with our new scheme)
          put a disclaimer (we reserve the right to use all submissions no matter what the winner is in some form)..saw that on a differetn contest


        That woudl eb a cool way to see what others even outside out "community" thought of climbers....I am sure there woudl be a ton of cliche style logos...but have them design them for web page look...biz cards....logohead....t-shirts....beenies....very cool....just throwing out .02...and most of them were only $100 contests....pretty good design for next to $0 money


        jt512


        Mar 24, 2005, 5:10 PM
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        In reply to:
        I would really like to see a contest and let's vote on the best option. I'll throw in some cash personally for this. Maybe we can have a few other volunteers pledge some money for the winner.

        You never stop, do you. Well, why should you, I suppose. There's a sucker born every minute, eh?

        -Jay


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