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vegastradguy
Apr 21, 2005, 1:28 PM
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In reply to: Fast parties have the RIGHT OF WAY. It's not only about guides.
no they dont. a fast party has to get in line with everyone else if they werent fast enough to get to the climb first- if they would like to pass a slower party, they should ask politely or use a variation to pass them.
the real sad thing about this is that Froglands has moderate variations on every single pitch that if the guide had really climbed it 100 times, could have used one to go around these gents, thus avoiding any dangerous situation.
oh, and for the record, i've been passed once, on my second multipitch by some asswipe who passed my second while she was climbing. his ropes passed over her, entangling her and generally pissing me off. if anyone is fast enough to catch me now and actually tries to pass me on lead without asking first, i can guarantee there will be a fight of some sort- i will not allow such blantant disregard of lives anywhere around me or my partners while i am climbing- period. you can put yourselves at risk all you want, but if you put me or my partner at risk, i'll be damned if i don't do anything about it then and there.
all that said, every time i've passed someone or been in a situation where i've debated passing, being passed, etc, etc, its always been civil and everyone has practiced general good sense. thankfully, this sort of behavior is rare....
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edge
Apr 21, 2005, 1:50 PM
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Common sense should prevail.
I always yield to faster parties, and yet it has only happened a handful of time in 28 years.
Just because you got on a long route first, does not mean that you own it for the day. If someone is fast enough to "catch" me at the first belay, then they are fast enough to get out of my way before I can care about them. If they clip my gear, so be it. I obviously put it at the right place at the right time, and this crap will happen.
Please don't sue me if you clip my gear and it fails, and also don't complain if I got up earlier than you and was "in your way."
Use your head, people. On a life or death climb, or even on something where benightment is a consideration, then you may be passed if you are unequal to the task. You may very well be capable of the climb, but don't put someone else at risk just because "you were there first."
I have been at both ends of this spectrum, and the climbs where I retreated to rescue another team who I had passed are much more vivid memories than the climbs where I got the "F" out of there and left them to "deal with it."
Most recently, I "asked" a party on Cathedral Peak if they minded if I lead past their second. The second answered "No," and I respected that. If it were life or death, then "F" him, I wouldn't have even asked. By my waiting, at pitch 4 out of 10, then I ended up summitting 10 minutes after the second did, hours before nightfall; they basically held the same pace and no one was placed in danger. I always had the opportunity to blow past them or rap off to preserve my butt; it's a head game of self preservation. Use your freaking head.
If someone is crass or undiplomatic about this, then I do reserve the right to piss on their parade, or notify their superiors. There are plenty of arseholes at the crag, and if someone is a particular problem, then I do the entire climbing world a favor by letting him or his employer know about it.
Sport routes are a completely different beast. If you got there first, no one will suffer or die because of it; there are always a plethora of similar climbs a few footsteps away. However, if you set up camp or place perma-draws on a trade route, then don't blame my impatient questioning or the swift kick to your dog's ribcage.
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olderic
Apr 21, 2005, 1:59 PM
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It's interesting how most of you are willing to be judge, jury (and executioner) after hearing only one side of the story. And that side seems to hold the typical rc.com noob indignant attitude. The more experienced posters have a more mellow outlook. Those of you that are so worked up should use some of that phony macho attitude energy to get some more climbing experience and realize the way climbing is done. Hint it's not whether guides have the rightaway (although some of you would pretty much self destruct if you experienced the preferential treatment they get in lift lines and huts in Europe) it's that the faster, more competent, BETTER (to use the op's uppercase preference) has the right away. This "I was here first attitude"....... Doesn't even work in golf
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holmeslovesguinness
Apr 21, 2005, 2:16 PM
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In reply to: reno, From what I can tell, dingus is a climber--a real climber. And a real climber would have dealt with this situation at the time. To piss and moan and run to mommy after the fact is not what a real climber would do. Curt
I agree that it's best to deal with stuff like this face to face but.... What exactly are your options in this case? Aside from having a war of words in the middle of a long route or doing something stupid and dangerous (cutting ropes, whatever :roll: ), not much.
Of course who knows whether anything about this story is true or not. Maybe the OP and his party were going uber slow and the guide tried to be nice about passing to no avail. I dunno. Whether or not you should pass or be passed is kind of dependant on the situation. As long as everyone is courteous and communicates there shouldn't be a problem.
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edge
Apr 21, 2005, 2:21 PM
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Common sense should prevail.
I always yield to faster parties, and yet it has only happened a handful of time in 28 years.
Just because you got on a long route first, does not mean that you own it for the day. If someone is fast enough to "catch" me at the first belay, then they are fast enough to get out of my way before I can care about them. If they clip my gear, so be it. I obviously put it at the right place at the right time, and this crap will happen.
Please don't sue me if you clip my gear and it fails, and also don't complain if I got up earlier than you and was "in your way."
Use your head, people. On a life or death climb, or even on something where benightment is a consideration, then you may be passed if you are unequal to the task. You may very well be capable of the climb, but don't put someone else at risk just because "you were there first."
I have been at both ends of this spectrum, and the climbs where I retreated to rescue another team who I had passed are much more vivid memories than the climbs where I got the "F" out of there and left them to "deal with it."
Most recently, I "asked" a party on Cathedral Peak if they minded if I lead past their second. The second answered "No," and I respected that. If it were life or death, then "F" him, I wouldn't have even asked. By my waiting, at pitch 4 out of 10, then I ended up summitting 10 minutes after the second did, hours before nightfall; they basically held the same pace and no one was placed in danger. I always had the opportunity to blow past them or rap off to preserve my butt; it's a head game of self preservation. Use your freaking head.
If someone is crass or undiplomatic about this, then I do reserve the right to piss on their parade, or notify their superiors. There are plenty of arseholes at the crag, and if someone is a particular problem, then I do the entire climbing world a favor by letting him or his employer know about it.
Sport routes are a completely different beast. If you got there first, no one will suffer or die because of it; there are always a plethora of similar climbs a few footsteps away. However, if you set up camp or place perma-draws on a trade route, then don't blame my impatient questioning or the swift kick to your dog's ribcage.
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dingus
Apr 21, 2005, 2:28 PM
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Climb with efficiency (Hollywood Hans speed is not necessary) and cut your belay switches to 5 minutes or less (which you shoul be doing anyway) and the issue pretty much takes care of itself.
That's the take away from all this. Posturing, threatening to cut ropes, tiresm throats, going after the guide's job... none of these things will prevent a slow party from getting passed again.
Period.
DMT
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blueeyedclimber
Apr 21, 2005, 2:42 PM
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In reply to: It's interesting how most of you are willing to be judge, jury (and executioner) after hearing only one side of the story. And that side seems to hold the typical rc.com noob indignant attitude. The more experienced posters have a more mellow outlook. Those of you that are so worked up should use some of that phony macho attitude energy to get some more climbing experience and realize the way climbing is done. Hint it's not whether guides have the rightaway (although some of you would pretty much self destruct if you experienced the preferential treatment they get in lift lines and huts in Europe) it's that the faster, more competent, BETTER (to use the op's uppercase preference) has the right away. This "I was here first attitude"....... Doesn't even work in golf
Although I agree with you, Eric, there is still a common etiquette. In golf, a "May I play through?" should precede any passing. Any decent person, in climbing or in golf, should allow faster parties to pass. But, if said party is not going to pass in a safe manner that will compromise his clients and other party's safety, that is unacceptable. If this indeed happened, a professional follow-up is warrented. On ther other hand, if the OP is misrepresenting himself and the guide, then you need to check yourself.
I, for one, am slow as molasses, and would always allow a faster party to pass, but not while the leader in our group is still on lead. At least wait until they are "off belay." And, if you ask to pass, you better be faster than me.
Josh
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olderic
Apr 21, 2005, 2:46 PM
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In reply to: Climb with efficiency (Hollywood Hans speed is not necessary) and cut your belay switches to 5 minutes or less (which you shoul be doing anyway) and the issue pretty much takes care of itself. That's the take away from all this. Posturing, threatening to cut ropes, tiresm throats, going after the guide's job... none of these things will prevent a slow party from getting passed again. Period. DMT
But hiding behind my monitor I can easily flaunt my manhood by threatening to do all these things.
Loran (Edge) is the voice of reason (except about dogs - but he is just jealous cause mine is faster then his - well bigger anyway). IN 30+ years of climbing I have done a lot more passing then being pased but one day on the Dolomites (Comici route on the Cima Grande) I got passed by every guide in Italy along with his grandma. We were making good time too (20 pitches of up to 5.10/a1 in 10 hours) but these guys had it wired and were doing the route in 3-4 hours. There were no issues - some of them asked (I think that's what they were saying) some didn't. Some clipped my gear, sometimes I clipped theirs, sometimes we both clipped the rotten wooden wedges - it was all good.
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olderic
Apr 21, 2005, 3:28 PM
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In reply to: Although I agree with you, Eric, there is still a common etiquette. In golf, a "May I play through?" should precede any passing. Any decent person, in climbing or in golf, should allow faster parties to pass. But, if said party is not going to pass in a safe manner that will compromise his clients and other party's safety, that is unacceptable. If this indeed happened, a professional follow-up is warrented. On ther other hand, if the OP is misrepresenting himself and the guide, then you need to check yourself. I, for one, am slow as molasses, and would always allow a faster party to pass, but not while the leader in our group is still on lead. At least wait until they are "off belay." And, if you ask to pass, you better be faster than me. Josh
Oh I completely agree Josh there should always be some communication and consideration of the best way to do it. But on a long route I think it should be the normal thing to do. If I am getting caught up by a faster party I will often offer to let them pass before they ask - I hate to have someone on my butt (as I get older and more decrepit I find myself going slower - but I still usually get over to the right lane and turn off my turn signal....). Now that wasn't exactly the situation being described here as this one sounded like a conga line so that even if the guided party passed this one they were going to be road blocked by others. If that is the case then the guide did make a poor choice of getting on that route, it's not very long (3-4) pitches and it sounds like it was in full blown zoo conditions when he started up - but again we've only heard one side.
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dingus
Apr 21, 2005, 3:34 PM
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In reply to: From what I can tell, dingus is a climber--a real climber.
Oh, I'm a climber. (said with Kramer-like hipster-doofus self-assurance, triple hyphenated and EVERYTHING)
See?
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=33132
I rest my case.
DMT
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tradklime
Apr 21, 2005, 3:34 PM
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To answer the original question: HELL NO.
When people act on behalf of their employer, the employer is often held responsible for the employee's actions. Even if they are negligent. You would be doing the guide service owner a favor by providing information and feedback. It is up to the employer to decide what to do with that information, and to get the employee's perspective.
For those who bring in the Euro perspect, well that's great and all, but this didn't happen in Europe. For better or worse, the climbing culture (culture in general) is quite different between the US and Europe. Lots of BS that happens in Europe wouldn't be tolerated in the States, and vice versa.
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reno
Apr 21, 2005, 3:34 PM
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In reply to: From what I can tell, dingus is a climber--a real climber. And a real climber would have dealt with this situation at the time. To piss and moan and run to mommy after the fact is not what a real climber would do.
From what I can tell, I am too. So what?
Deal with the situation at the time? What would you have the OP do, Curt? Thmub wrestle while hangdogging on a #5 stopper 700 feet off the deck? Punches to the face while held tight on a .5 Friend? Knife fights at the fourth belay?
The guide should have ASKED to pass. If permission was denied, he should have respected that. Neither happened, the guides actions put others in danger, and a professional guide service would (should) want to know if one of their employees is acting in a blatantly unsafe manner.
Calling it to their attention hardly qualifies as crying to mommy. Sure, it ain't as macho as a fist fight, and if you're into a violent resolution, then more power to ya. My solution is an elegant way for all people involved, yet nobody gets fired or beat up.
But whatever...
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murf
Apr 21, 2005, 3:47 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: From what I can tell, dingus is a climber--a real climber. And a real climber would have dealt with this situation at the time. To piss and moan and run to mommy after the fact is not what a real climber would do. From what I can tell, I am too. So what?
real climber .... psuedo climber.. quasi climber... internet hero...giggle
In reply to: Deal with the situation at the time? Knife fights at the fourth belay?
Ultimately, if you don't want someone to pass, and they try anyway, it will come down to some sort of physical interaction. How about if the folks being passed were two waifish women and the guide was a 6'3" hulk? How about if its me and the 6'3" hulk? I'm complaining to the management!
In reply to: The guide should have ASKED to pass. If permission was denied, he should have respected that. Neither happened, the guides actions put others in danger, and a professional guide service would (should) want to know if one of their employees is acting in a blatantly unsafe manner. Calling it to their attention hardly qualifies as crying to mommy. My solution is an elegant way for all people involved, yet nobody gets fired or beat up.
.
As an internet hero, I'd have to agree with this. Some guide are shite, and don't deserve to be in charge of clients. A good guide wouldn't have gotten up late for the biggest frogjam in RR. Not only is it rude, but you are almost guarenteed a poor client experience. Guide sounds like an ass.
Murf
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olderic
Apr 21, 2005, 3:49 PM
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In reply to: To answer the original question: HELL NO. For those who bring in the Euro perspect, well that's great and all, but this didn't happen in Europe. For better or worse, the climbing culture (culture in general) is quite different between the US and Europe. Lots of BS that happens in Europe wouldn't be tolerated in the States, and vice versa.
The cultures are indeed very different but that doesn't mean that you can't consider the differences and possibly change your actions for the better. Especially if it has to do with somethiing like climbing where there is a lot more history and experience in general in Europe - particularily in terms of long trad routes.
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agrauch
Apr 21, 2005, 3:50 PM
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I'm surprised that the guide was such an ass. All the JHMG guides I've run into, and I've run into quite a few in the Tetons, have all been very polite and professional. Same goes for most of the Exum guides I've met too. The one guide who has passed me, I had set up an intermediate belay so that I could talk my two inexperienced seconds past a difficult stretch, asked if he pass and was cool when I asked if I could lead up to his belay.
As far as the revenge fantasies, let it go man. So what if the guide was rude. Maybe he was having a bad day and just wanted to be off the rock and away from all the gumbies.
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edge
Apr 21, 2005, 3:51 PM
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My bottom line is that if a more proficient team can pass me, then I will let them.
For me personally, no guided team, ie: one guide and one gumb, can ever do that because of my skills and the "perceived" skills of my second. If perchance they could, then I personally am not up to the task, and would not hold them up.
I could set my alarm clock for 2:30 AM and start on my four day voyage up the Northwest Face of Half Dome, but I have absolutely no right to inhibit anyone on a one day push.
FASTER PARTIES SHOULD PLAY THROUGH, AS LONG AS THEY DON'T ENDANGER THE PARTIES AROUND THEM!!!!!
Period.
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dingus
Apr 21, 2005, 3:51 PM
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In reply to: My solution is an elegant way for all people involved, yet nobody gets fired or beat up.
You're a reasonable person Reno. Right on.
I would only add this, at least two people in this thread offered to, and I think you might have said, 'if you don't, I will' go to the guide servive owner to lodge a complaint on behalf of the OP, based soley upon his account of an incident none of us witnessed or were affected by.
I urge you to stay out of it. The 'all people involved' in this last sentence of yours should be respected? Surely you have to agree that strangers on the internet should stop at posting an opinion and stay out of the real world interaction of the 'people involved?'
In short, and I don't mean to be rude, but it's none of your business.
Cheers man
DMT
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roadman33
Apr 21, 2005, 3:54 PM
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Bad Guide no pudding!!!!!!!!
Call/write the letter. Get it on file that the guy was a dick, and unsafe. If he keeps it up and others let his boss know, he'll get canned. If he was just having a bad day and he fucked up, it won't hurt anyone to let his boss know.
I've seen guides run over people on routes and a good friend of mine (that is a guide) was guiding in the alps and he was hit (and fell 100') by ice/rock fall from a guided party that passed without permission. Kinda funny that folks are defending a guide that could one day be responsible for something like that.
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reno
Apr 21, 2005, 4:00 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: My solution is an elegant way for all people involved, yet nobody gets fired or beat up. You're a reasonable person Reno. Right on.
Thanks, Dingus. I've honestly worked on being more reasonable. Wasn't all that long ago that I was a hot-headed punk who didn't give a rat-fuck what people thought. I've been trying to take a more reasoned, calm approach to the world around me.
In reply to: I would only add this, at least two people in this thread offered to, and I think you might have said, 'if you don't, I will' go to the guide servive owner to lodge a complaint on behalf of the OP, based soley upon his account of an incident none of us witnessed or were affected by. In short, and I don't mean to be rude, but it's none of your business.
No, no.... not sure what I said that implied I was going to call/write. I was trying to suggest an option for the OP. Or, "If it had happened to ME, this is what I would do." I've no plans to call JHMG, because, as you correctly point out, I wasn't there. Sorry for the confusion.
My final take: If it had happened to me, I'd have expressed my displeasure with the guide right then and there. Then I'd write a gentle letter expressing my concerns. But I wouldn't cut his rope, slash his tires, etc.
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ddriver
Apr 21, 2005, 4:03 PM
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I have been on both sides of this one as well, many times. The ethic in the US is definitely different than the one in Europe. As others have stated, I've had my gear clipped by another team as they tried to pass ours, and I have probably done it to others, though not in the US. For the first 8 pitches of one ascent of the Tofane we played a speed game with a German team where we raced side by side, they clipping our gear, as they slowly passed my wife and I. After 8 pitches we said WTF and let them go. But, they and we were civil about the whole deal, and they finished more than an hour ahead of us. On an ascent of the Schubert on the Piz Ciavaces we walked up to a cluster of 3 Italian teams who were together, the first team halfway up the first pitch. We were already racked to go and climbed an alternate start, passed the two slower teams, and spent the day sharing belays with the fast Italians, having a great day. On an ascent of the Third Sella Tower our team of three caught a team of 2 German kids. They were asses and at one belay their belayer physically blocked me from getting onto the belay ledge. Another team of Germans came up from behind and tried to pass us all. Fortunately, they spoke English and were cool, and once they understood the situation they cussed out the young German team. We all wound up passing the young guys, partied together on top, and got our revenge by beating them on the descent and pulling our ropes before they got to the rappels. Ah, fun in the mountains. Again, its all about attitude.
I've been a guide in my former life, and I know it can be a tough issue with sharing routes, especially if its top-rope instruction. Guides don't have any prerogative over a route, and have to get up early in order to ensure access. As a guide I never felt that I had a right to a climb and tried to share. Don't let a guide tell you otherwise.
I've also had a couple run-ins with both Jackson Mountain and Exum guides, and I've not always been impressed with their attitudes. I was taught that the ethic of the mountains was that the team going uphill has the right-of-way, as they are under durress. On a couple occassions I've been brushed off the trail by Jackson guides as they rushed their teenage clients down the hill. I know some of them are great guys but some are just arrogant asses.
Anyway, passing and being passed are part of the game, but if it's not being done safely you've got a legitimate complaint, and I've got no problem with talking to the guide service about it. They've got no way of knowing what their guides are doing in the field, and they probably want to know if their service is getting a bad rap due to one of their guides' actions.
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curt
Apr 21, 2005, 4:08 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: reno, From what I can tell, dingus is a climber--a real climber. And a real climber would have dealt with this situation at the time. To piss and moan and run to mommy after the fact is not what a real climber would do. Curt Would you hop over someone on lead? P.K.
Well, that depends. I certainly have passed slower climbers before, but always with their permission. Please re-read my comment and note that I assign no value judgement to passing other climbers per se.
Curt
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ddriver
Apr 21, 2005, 4:12 PM
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double post
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curt
Apr 21, 2005, 4:12 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: reno, From what I can tell, dingus is a climber--a real climber. And a real climber would have dealt with this situation at the time. To piss and moan and run to mommy after the fact is not what a real climber would do. Curt Would you hop over someone on lead? P.K.
Well, that depends. I certainly have passed slower climbers before, but always with their permission. Please re-read my comment and note that I assign no value judgement to passing other climbers per se. Common sense dictates that the faster party should have the right-of-way. The golf analogy is a good one. Driving is another; if you're going 55 in the fast lane, move over if someone wants to pass.
Curt
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tradklime
Apr 21, 2005, 4:20 PM
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In reply to: The cultures are indeed very different but that doesn't mean that you can't consider the differences and possibly change your actions for the better.
Well getting used to guides climbing over/ under me, screwing with my pro, etc. is not an action for the better, period.
My point isn't necessarily that a different perspective shouldn't be considered, it's that there is a very different context between the two continents.
Consider the potential for violence... you don't have to go farther than this thread for examples. In the US, if you treat someone that poorly the likelyhood of getting punched, your rope cut, or shot for that matter, isn't really entirely unrealistic. As a generalization, we Americans have a very different sense of personal rights, and when others infringe upon those rights, than people in Europe do.
I applaud the OP for openning a discussion, rather than doing something rash at the time. He should have expressed his displeasure at the time, and will probably do so in the future, but he could have reacted a lot worse than he did.
And in the context of the US, if the guide does something reckless and someone gets hurt, the guide service is on the hook. Like it or not, that's the reality.
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