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mtnfr34k
Aug 11, 2005, 4:57 AM
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All right, I give up. Jay thinks I have the infallibility of the Pope. And you're right Kim, I did assume a leader fall had taken place. By the way, Jay, there's no way to tell that the pitch traverses, only that the leader needed to trolley into the line (because its overhung, or the route goes up and right 6 feet, who knows, who cares).
And just because the rope will be pulling on the cam from an angle does not mean the cam will walk, Jay. I still argue that the placement needs to be EVALUATED and JUDGED for its own merit, not simply follow some recipe. THAT's how people screw up and get hurt, when their only rationalization is to say, "That how the book showed it."
Since Jay insists that my work as a guide gives my opinion more credibility, I'd say right now that if it was me on a personal climb I'd look at that little red alien and decide how much I trusted it. If I didn't trust it - for whatever reason - I'd simply back it up, or leave the next piece down in as well. If I did trust it, I'd be willing to be lowered off of it.
If I was working, the level of accepted risk is considerably lowered. I can't afford to make a guest become my rescuer (an element of risk that climbing partners assume). Don't worry, Jay, I think the likely hood of us ever climbing together is pretty small.
Oh, and on the subject of the Gri-Gri backup. The time spent screwing around with this idea is such a pain as to make it worthwhile, IMHO, to make me rather leave a second piece behind and simply come down.
Sorry for the tangent, folks...
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jt512
Aug 11, 2005, 3:38 PM
Post #52 of 83
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In reply to: All right, I give up. Jay thinks I have the infallibility of the Pope.
Come off it. If I thought you were infallible, would I have called your post "simplistic, dangerous, and irresponsible?"
In reply to: By the way, Jay, there's no way to tell that the pitch traverses, only that the leader needed to trolley into the line (because its overhung, or the route goes up and right 6 feet, who knows, who cares).
What Kim wrote was, "The standard way (from sport climbing) to follow the rope back is to clip a sling to the rope as a directional so as the leader is lowered they follow the rope across the diagonal (see b) cleaning as they go." [emphasis]
Now, "diagonal" implies that the route doesn't go straight up, but rather traverses somewhat. However, even if you interpret "diagonal" to be a reference to a 2-dimentional drawing that could represent an overhang, then like you say, "who cares?" because the issue is exactly the same: while cleaning, the action of the climber either following the belayer's rope down or swinging back and forth into the wall will cause movement in the rope at the top piece.
In reply to: And just because the rope will be pulling on the cam from an angle does not mean the cam will walk, Jay.
I didn't say that it "will" walk. Furthermore, the issue is not that the rope is pulling on the cam from an angle; it is that the rope will (and now I'm saying will) pull back and forth on the cam. That's what can cause a cam to walk.
In reply to: I still argue that the placement needs to be EVALUATED and JUDGED for its own merit, not simply follow some recipe.
That's what you still argue? This must be a use of the word still that I am not familiar with. Please show me in your first two posts where you mentioned using judgment.
In reply to: Since Jay insists that my work as a guide gives my opinion more credibility, I'd say right now that if it was me on a personal climb I'd look at that little red alien and decide how much I trusted it. If I didn't trust it - for whatever reason - I'd simply back it up, or leave the next piece down in as well. If I did trust it, I'd be willing to be lowered off of it.
Hallelujah! That's the first reasonable thing you've posted in this thread. If you'd have said that in the first place you'd have saved me a lot of typing.
Out of curiosity, mtnfr34k, when you say you are a "guide," are you a certified AMGA Guide? And another question: why would a professional rock climbing guide post anonymously to a rock climbing discussion board? I would think that a board such as this would be an obvious opportunity to meet potential clients.
-Jay
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dingus
Aug 11, 2005, 4:01 PM
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In reply to: And another question: why would a professional rock climbing guide post anonymously to a rock climbing discussion board? I would think that a board such as this would be an obvious opportunity to meet potential clients. -Jay
Maybe he'd like to enjoy the freedom of speaking his mind without direct impact to his professional life?
I will NEVER forget the beating Lou Dawson took on rec.ckiing.backcountry for daring to voice an opinion. He was called every vile name in the book. being usenet, he had no recourse. Period.
I recall thinking... a person who makes their living at this would be nuts to allow herself to get flamed on a message board using her professional name. NUTS.
The only exception I know is Karl Baba, who is flame retardant (for you noobs, I did NOT call Karl Baba retarded).
DMT
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kubi
Aug 11, 2005, 4:06 PM
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In reply to: Why don't you just admit that you didn't actually do what you claimed. You have demonstrated pretty admiraly that you do not even understand what is involved. Ever hear of a firemans belay??????
Have you been drinking? What does a fireman's belay have to do with this situation?
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chitlinsconcarne
Aug 11, 2005, 4:10 PM
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In reply to: Redundancy and backups are great, but I think that people over-do it way too often.
I think thats worth submitting to the Department of Redundancy Department.
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dingus
Aug 11, 2005, 4:20 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Redundancy and backups are great, but I think that people over-do it way too often. I think thats worth submitting to the Department of Redundancy Department.
You can say that again.
DMT
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chitlinsconcarne
Aug 11, 2005, 4:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Redundancy and backups are great, but I think that people over-do it way too often. I think thats worth submitting to the Department of Redundancy Department. You can say that again. DMT
I think thats worth submitting to the Department of Redundancy Department.
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jt512
Aug 11, 2005, 4:31 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: And another question: why would a professional rock climbing guide post anonymously to a rock climbing discussion board? I would think that a board such as this would be an obvious opportunity to meet potential clients. -Jay I recall thinking... a person who makes their living at this would be nuts to allow herself to get flamed on a message board using her professional name. NUTS. The only exception I know is Karl Baba, who is flame retardant (for you noobs, I did NOT call Karl Baba retarded).
People who know what they are talking about and conduct themselves on-line in a professional manner don't get flamed -- at least not on this board -- Usenet, I agree, is riskier. Karl Baba isn't the only...(what's the opposite of flammable? It can't be inflammable because that means the same thing)...flame retardant rock climbing professional on line. There's Hank Moon, Chris Harmston, and a guy (whose name I can't remember) who owns a major climbing equipment company (whose name I can't remember either - so much for my theory that this is good advertising, eh?) who posts here. Largo posts, too, but he's untouchable.
-Jay
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montanapup
Aug 11, 2005, 4:33 PM
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Jay,
I dont think Mtnfreak is hiding behind the web at all. He's mearly voicing another opinion to the conversation. An opinion which you seem to disagree with pretty strongly. If anything, you've been a bit aggro. Why the hostility?
Maybe the two of you need to take the conversation elsewhere personally rather than shoot barbs at eachother. Whatever the pissing match seems to be, it looks like you have a bee in your bonnet.
As for calling him out and malaligning him in a public forum, bummer on you. You've managed to place a question on his integrity, though he has been respectful to you AND you have managed to make yourself out to be quite the ass! :roll:
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jt512
Aug 11, 2005, 4:58 PM
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In reply to: As for calling him out and malaligning him in a public forum, bummer on you. You've managed to place a question on his integrity...
I implied nothing about his integrity, only his judgment, and he brought that upon himself. He declared himself to be a guide in one thread, and in another thread, in two consecutive posts, he is telling n00bies, without qualification, that it's ok to clean a route by lowering from a single red Alien. That's dangerous advice from anyone, but from someone who has called himself a guide, it's irresponsible. I stand by that.
-Jay
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dingus
Aug 11, 2005, 5:05 PM
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In reply to: People who know what they are talking about and conduct themselves on-line in a professional manner don't get flamed -- at least not on this board -- Usenet, I agree, is riskier.
The internet, at a fundamental level, is anonymous. There is no assurance whatsoever that the person is who they claim to be. That is the starting point of every discussion on this board or any other.
Now I don't dispute your central point Jay. I will only add the obvious - not everyone wishes to conduct themselves in a professional manner 24/7. Not everyone wants their casual on-line comments to come back and haunt them in the pocketbook. There are those on this board and others, anonymous people for the most part, who will go after you where you work if they get the notion. Happened via rc.com and the Red Rocks guiding thing earlier this year. How many of those packers used their professional names???
I think a well establised guide not looking for new clients isn't thinking clearly when she posts under her professional name. What good can come from it??? Being flamed by anonymous punters with no accountability isn't a great way to stimulate new business.
Can rc.com fix this? More importantly, SHOULD rc.com fix this?
I say NO. The flaw is fundamental to the internet. Making people use their real names (or insisting they do so - same thing) in an anonymous media simply because they are a professional guide is unfair.
In reply to: Largo posts, too, but he's untouchable.
Seems to be a function of temperment... he just won't get drawn in. Admirable fellow, I could learn a few things from him (a few things, lol)
Cheers man
DMT
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montanapup
Aug 11, 2005, 5:23 PM
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Hi Jay,
After thouroughly reading through all the posts I must say that here's what I have observed:
1. You pointed out that he said he was a guide - he never said that in his intial post - YOU pointed that out. How did you know that???! His profile doesnt indicate this at all. What gives Jay?
2. The two of you are bickering over a difference of opinion which you both obviously disagree on. Both of you have been less than polite.
3. Taking verbatum from an online forum anything anyone says as advice is absurd. Nothing can be trusted as fact.
4. Again, my question; Why so hostile?
As for his judgement, that was the point of his posts, USE YOUR BEST JUDGEMENT was his overall advice. His subsequent posts demonstrated he was corrected by the original OP!
Many of us have used less than or best judgement. Would you have done it? No, obviously not. He, on the otherhand after determination, would have.
Get over it. Sounds like you have a bone to pick, with A GUIDE.
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jt512
Aug 11, 2005, 5:36 PM
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In reply to: Hi Jay, After thouroughly reading through all the posts I must say that here's what I have observed: 1. You pointed out that he said he was a guide - he never said that in his intial post - YOU pointed that out. How did you know that???! His profile doesnt indicate this at all. What gives Jay? 2. The two of you are bickering over a difference of opinion which you both obviously disagree on. Both of you have been less than polite. 3. Taking verbatum from an online forum anything anyone says as advice is absurd. Nothing can be trusted as fact. 4. Again, my question; Why so hostile? As for his judgement, that was the point of his posts, USE YOUR BEST JUDGEMENT was his overall advice. His subsequent posts demonstrated he was corrected by the original OP! Many of us have used less than or best judgement. Would you have done it? No, obviously not. He, on the otherhand after determination, would have. Get over it. Sounds like you have a bone to pick, with A GUIDE.
Sounds like you have a reading comprehension problem. I find it hard to believe that anyone could actually have read through this thread and come to your conclusions.
-Jay
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montanapup
Aug 11, 2005, 5:39 PM
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You are less than polite again without answering the obvious. Thanks Jay!
Pat
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caughtinside
Aug 11, 2005, 5:47 PM
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Hi Pat,
While too lazy to post to this thread, I thought earlier that the freek's suggestion 'If you fall on a piece, it's good enough to lower from' was irresponsible and dangerous advice. Especially considering that pieces below it were going to be cleaned.
When you post opinions on a board like this, you've got to expect that people will disagree with you. And generally, the worse/more dangerous your advice is percieved, the more hostile the response will be. And if you dig in your heels, it's going to get even more hostile.
And I think that's what happened here. Jay responded to freek's post, and pointed out it's danger. Freek stood by his post, and the discussion of it's danger expanded from there. This is normal, and lets those on the sidelines read two sides of a debate, and decide for themselves which makes more sense, and who makes a more coherent argument.
Maybe he wasn't very polite about it. Not such a big deal, in my opinion.
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montanapup
Aug 11, 2005, 6:02 PM
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Hi Caughtinside!
I agree with some of what you have said. What I find interesting is to see these two take a discussion and turn it into a personal pissing match. Not to mention Jay's dismissive attitude which doesnt really stregthen his arguement any further.
But, I guess you are right and that's to be expected.
Thanks for the 2 cents! Back to work now..... 8^)
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rgold
Aug 11, 2005, 8:13 PM
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The the situation is a lowland crag, the party is near to ground, and there are no pressing conditions requiring either speed or conservation of gear. The leader is lowering off a piece which, if it fails, will result in his death.
If it were me, I wouldn't care how many guides, dignitaries, or experts (internet or otherwise) mocked me, I wouldn't lower off that cam without some kind of back-up, and this is regardless of whether or not the cam had held a load previously and whether or not it looked bombproof. I don't see any reason to increase the risk of death in totally mellow circumstances when said increase is easily neutralized. This strikes me as an example of entirely appropriate redundancy. If that makes me a candidate for Chief Department Head of the Department of Redundancy Department, well then, mark your ballots.
I also think the OP's gri-gri solution to the redundancy problem was elegant and efficient. It takes less time to snap on a gri-gri than it would to beef up the top anchor, and you don't lose any additional gear.
Finally, a comment about aiding down. If this retreat occurred where I think it did, it would basically be an aid traverse leftwards with feet on a slab and a few steps down to the belay. For such a traverse, the leader doesn't need to improvise etriers, he just needs a pair of improvised daisy's---it is hard to imagine a simpler situation.
The fact that a simple solution wasn't on the party's radar (whether they would have chosen it or not is a different question) is, perhaps, indicative of the fact that aid climbing seems to be viewed more and more as something you don't learn until you are relatively "advanced." I think this rather modern perspective is unfortunate. The ability to improvise an aid ascent will get most parties out of far more jams than all the arcane knowledge about belay escapes and hauling systems that seem to have become a popular item of study for climbers early in their careers. If there are any guides/climbing school directors listening, I suggest a course in improvised aid would be a worthy public service and, properly explained, a popular offering.
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golsen
Aug 12, 2005, 4:21 AM
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Kim, your idea seems plausible and does seem like a good idea. There have actually been a few things good to ponder in this thread (assuming you have a thick skin!).
I remember a time before small cams when Friends were the only thing out. I was trying a new route in Indian Creek (wingate sandstone for those of you who dont know the place). The only big piece I had was a #4 Friend. The climb turned offwidth and it was time for me to turn tail. No pro and I had climbed some mank to get to where I was. Downclimbing was not an option. Pro? None for many feet below me. Luckily there was about a 3/8" crack to the side of the offwidth and I was able to get a stopper in there. It is one of those pieces that after about 30 years of climbing I can still see it. There was no chance to get two pieces in there so I had to lower off the one. I could have seen using this technique except grigri's had not been invented, and I almost never take the grigri off the ground (exceptin walls, but its been a few years). I think I could have rigged something similar with a prusik (my chalkbag belt is perlon).
There are times when all you got is one piece. Whether you arrived there due to stupidity or are simply scared and want to go home matters little. Getting your ass back to flat ground is what counts. I don't think I will try and rely on your technique but I am glad you shared.
Gary
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 12, 2005, 5:26 AM
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Do you people think it would be funny if someone went out and actually tried this?
Most of you probably know that he would be promptly stuck if you put an upside down grigri on the rope in the scenario described.
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golsen
Aug 12, 2005, 6:00 AM
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Funny! No, in the scenario I described it would have been scary as hell. On a questionable piece I suppose one might argue that trying to use it may also put more jerking on the piece as you feed it through...In my situation that would have been a bad thing.
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lambone
Aug 12, 2005, 6:52 AM
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In reply to: Do you people think it would be funny if someone went out and actually tried this? Most of you probably know that he would be promptly stuck if you put an upside down grigri on the rope in the scenario described.
Not necesarily, with the lever fully open the rope still may slide though slowly. Plus, apparently this person actually DID do this, and it worked for them.
I don't think it's all that different then standard solo-aiding technique.
way to back yourself up!
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mtnfr34k
Aug 12, 2005, 7:24 AM
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Oh boy. I really set myself up for this - so sorry to all of you more interested in Gri-Gri's and whatnot.
So Jay. I put words into your mouth - you didn't claim as I was going to become the next Pope. But you did imply that you gave my opinion more weight because you were aware of my profession (dude, you tracked down all the other threads I've commented in? What kind of free time do you have? Go climbing!)
And you're right, I didn't use the world "judgement" in my first two posts. It didn't show up until the fourth post (and I'd like to think it would have shown up sooner except for my smart-ass "middle finger" post #3). But this thread is in the "General" section of the Forum, not in "Beginners". I expect all my partners to be using their judgement on a climb - and I know they expect me to use mine too.
And you're right again - a rope pulling on a cam from multiple directions (any multiple directions), "could" make a cam walk. Not necessarily "will". Again - I changed the ever-so-subtle meaning of your words. Oops.
And, in conclusion, I don't "say" that I'm a "guide". I am a Guide. An Alpine Guide, at least that's what my business card reads. I have taken the AMGA Alpine and Rock curriculum, and will be taking the exams soon, and have aspirations to complete the Ski Mountaineering portion too. I work for several respectable companies.
But I'm a climber too, and I joined RC.com because 1) the conversations sounded interesting and 2) I'm down here in Bishop as a "geographical bachelor" and have a lot of free time in the evenings. But I didn't join to go trolling for clients - I have enough work without having to do so, thanks. And I have a right to my privacy. I don't go handing out brochures and business cards to every one I meet, either, and I don't spray about work when I go climbing for fun. I resent a little bit that you brought my work into what I thought was going to be a "off-the-clock" conversation. But I'm sure I'll get over it.
In reply to: In reply to: Since Jay insists that my work as a guide gives my opinion more credibility, I'd say right now that if it was me on a personal climb I'd look at that little red alien and decide how much I trusted it. If I didn't trust it - for whatever reason - I'd simply back it up, or leave the next piece down in as well. If I did trust it, I'd be willing to be lowered off of it. Hallelujah! That's the first reasonable thing you've posted in this thread. If you'd have said that in the first place you'd have saved me a lot of typing.
Well,
In reply to: Think this through rationally, trust your gear that just held a whole lot more force than the lower is going to require, and get down. If the leader is competent enough, they could place a nut that a truck could be hung from, and lower off of that instead.
What do you say, Jay - can we call this quits?
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fracture
Aug 12, 2005, 1:56 PM
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In reply to: Do you people think it would be funny if someone went out and actually tried this? Most of you probably know that he would be promptly stuck if you put an upside down grigri on the rope in the scenario described.
Hey alpnclmbr1: did you ever stop and think that you're (quite obviously) the only person who doesn't understand what the OP did?
;)
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jt512
Aug 12, 2005, 4:41 PM
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In reply to: But you did imply that you gave my opinion more weight because you were aware of my profession (dude, you tracked down all the other threads I've commented in?
I did not imply that I gave your opinion more weight because you were a guide. I strongly criticized your first two posts in this thread! What I said was that most of the users of this site consider the opinion of a guide as fact. And, no, I did not track down your other posts, but I did recall from another post of yours that you stated you were a guide.
In reply to: But this thread is in the "General" section of the Forum, not in "Beginners". I expect all my partners to be using their judgement on a climb - and I know they expect me to use mine too.
I'm sorry but this still contradicts the advice you gave in your first two posts -- reread them. You made no mention of judgment, but rather, implied that backups are simply unecessary when a single piece has already held a lead fall. You never stated that this was a judgment call, rather than a blanket rule, until I took exception to your posts.
In reply to: ... I am a Guide. An Alpine Guide, at least that's what my business card reads.... But I'm a climber too, and I joined RC.com because 1) the conversations sounded interesting and 2) I'm down here in Bishop as a "geographical bachelor" and have a lot of free time in the evenings. ... I resent a little bit that you brought my work into what I thought was going to be a "off-the-clock" conversation.
Except I'm not the one who brought your work into it. You did, by writing in another thread that you were a guide. I can understand perfectly well why you might prefer to keep your business life separate from your discussions on this site, but to try and have it both ways on the same site is to walk an impossibly thin line.
In reply to: What do you say, Jay - can we call this quits?
We can call it quits when you finally stop misrepresenting what each of us has posted.
-Jay
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karlbaba
Aug 12, 2005, 4:46 PM
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Dingus: Of course I'm retarded, that's why I don't mind being flamed.
Regarding the idea that started this thread: I think it's a great concept. If it works, there are certainly applications for it.
I can think of slabby face routes on Middle Cathedral in Yosemite for instance where you might get a sketchy piece with no chance for backup after a 30 foot runout. That might be enough to make you wish to bail! Better to fall shorter than longer if the piece blows.
Just a quick story to illustrate why a piece that held a fall might still be suspect: I took a 30+ footer onto the smallest wired hexentric once aid climbing in Yosemite. I returned to the piece that held me to finish the pitch and, when I pulled the piece with a yank, the rock surrounding it shattered. Fortunately or not, when I had lowered from it, I had only been 10 feet from the ground to begin with, but the fall had clearly compromised the rock around the piece. I'm sure this would be more common in sandstone. (Didn't ya'll see vertical limit? ;-0)
Anyway, good to have a bag of tricks and know when to use them and not to use them. I think this one's worth knowing, particularly if you are the type to carry the appropriate device on lead (which I am)
Peace
Karl
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