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caughtinside
Aug 30, 2005, 2:44 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ....but it is my opinion that the beginning of the climb is when the climber has two feet on the ground, and the end comes when you call for tension after clipping the chains.... What? You don't sit-start all of your climbs? Invalid, dab, etc. :lol: Curt
Curt, I'm glad you asked. Actually, I stopped sit starting all my boulder problems, because it's contrived, stupid, and not fun. :D
I defy you to invalidate my sends!
V4FORLYFE!!!111
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curt
Aug 30, 2005, 2:47 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: ....but it is my opinion that the beginning of the climb is when the climber has two feet on the ground, and the end comes when you call for tension after clipping the chains.... What? You don't sit-start all of your climbs? Invalid, dab, etc. :lol: Curt Curt, I'm glad you asked. Actually, I stopped sit starting all my boulder problems, because it's contrived, stupid, and not fun. :D
Ahso, you are wise beyond your years grasshopper. :wink:
Curt
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fracture
Aug 30, 2005, 3:01 AM
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In reply to: ... it is my opinion that the beginning of the climb is when the climber has two feet on the ground, and the end comes when you call for tension after clipping the chains.
What if there is no anchor?
(Here in centex, you gotta top out and jump).
In reply to: And no, I will not deny your ascents where you topped out and clipped from above. However, that sounds like a very trad thing to do. Next you'll be walking or rapping off! :P
Shit. :shock:
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lewisiarediviva
Aug 30, 2005, 3:25 AM
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In reply to: lewis--a primary reason people use stick clips is to protect opening moves. The rationale being that its unnecessary to risk an ankle/leg injury from a groundfall that will keep you from climbing for a couple months.
In reply to: Ethics deal with issues that will affect other climbers.
You know caughtinside, I wish you would use this demeanor of response every time you respond to me. I might actually decide your ok.
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jt512
Aug 30, 2005, 3:43 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: lewis--a primary reason people use stick clips is to protect opening moves. The rationale being that its unnecessary to risk an ankle/leg injury from a groundfall that will keep you from climbing for a couple months. Thank you, I now understand the main purpose. In reply to: Ethics deal with issues that will affect other climbers. A good point I just think everyone should remember. I obviously forgot this minor detail when I asked my question. You know caughtinside, I wish you would use this demeanor of response every time you respond to me. I might actually decide your ok.
But then Hillary and I might decide to disown him. It's his call.
-Jay
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moonshine505
Aug 30, 2005, 2:09 PM
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For some additional context on Fracture's comments re: endurance routes...I skip at least 2 clips on Goliath (don't even put draws on them) both to decrease rope drag and because stopping to clip just isn't worth it on that route. On a similar route this past weekend, in a 60 foot section, I clipped one bolt, skipping 4 clips, for the same reasons. Not sure how this relates to stick-clipping...
So, back to stick clipping, for more context, I can think of only one route I've done where I consider a stick clip essential, the crux of the route consists of an intense 8-move V9 boulder problem right off the deck where the first "clip" can be made standing on the ground, and is essentially there to keep the rope out of your way as you climb. If you were to fall clipping the second bolt, which is likely unless you can just hang out in the middle of a V9 sequence, you'd pound and almost certainly break an ankle. In that case, I stick-clipped the second bolt, and I definately don't feel bad about it.
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fracture
Aug 30, 2005, 2:54 PM
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In reply to: On a similar route this past weekend, in a 60 foot section, I clipped one bolt, skipping 4 clips, for the same reasons. Not sure how this relates to stick-clipping...
There's a similarity between the two that people don't always grok. For some reason, skipping clips is considered better style, and stick-clipping is considered the opposite (by weak climbers, that is). But the thing is, most sport climbers who do either do them for the same reason---they are both part of a set of possible tactics you can use to avoid a hard clip or save energy you would have used on a clip.
In reply to: So, back to stick clipping, for more context, I can think of only one route I've done where I consider a stick clip essential, the crux of the route consists of an intense 8-move V9 boulder problem right off the deck where the first "clip" can be made standing on the ground, and is essentially there to keep the rope out of your way as you climb ...
Hey tradman: this is the kind of thing I was talking about where routes are designed to have more than one bolt pre-clipped.
In reply to: In that case, I stick-clipped the second bolt, and I definately don't feel bad about it.
Damn straight. And I doubt anyone who could come anywhere close to doing that route would feel bad about it either. ;)
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renohandjams
Aug 30, 2005, 3:36 PM
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In Yosemite last Friday we were climbing this climb that had a huge tree spike at the bottom that would kill you if you fell on it. The first bolt was pretty run out and because of the situation I would not have poo pooed if someone had used a stick climb. I also decided I would much rather trad than sport anyday.
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jt512
Aug 30, 2005, 4:41 PM
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In reply to: When there's no way to get around a clip of that nature, I'll probably climb a route that's less s---, instead. ;) In reply to: ... the redpoint crux is often the last few moves, or even clipping the anchors. If the hardest thing to do on redpoint is clip the anchors, I'd just "skip" the anchors by jumping off (or topping out) after I finished climbing. I don't consider clipping the anchor to be required to redpoint a route.
You're entitled to subscribe to your own definition of redpoint, but the generally accepted definition of redpoint is that you must clip the anchor. Sport climbing is a game with a set of accepted "rules." This "rule" makes more sense if you think about it in historical context. Sport climbing grew out of trad climbing. You haven't free climbed a pitch until you are safely clipped into the belay or have topped out. Imagine successfully free climbing to a pure hanging belay midway up a multipitch route. In spite of having got that far, if you fall out of your tenuous finger lock before getting an anchor established, you've clearly blown your free ascent.
In reply to: (And, 'round here, lots of routes don't even have anchors).
In spite of the fact that Texas has some good limestone, it isn't exactly the nexus of the sport. Sport climbs have anchors, and you gotta clip 'em for a redpoint.
In reply to: In reply to: The above notwithstanding, if you are into skipping the last bolt on endurance routes, then please look me up if you ever come to SoCal. We'll go to Echo Cliffs. You can lead Buried Treasure. It's 5.12d, but has no move harder on it than 5.11c, so how bad can it really be? You might get pumped by the last bolt though. I want to see if you skip it, and are willing to run it out to the anchors with a pump. If you fell clipping the anchors I'd say you're looking at something on the order of a 60-footer, with rope stretch. And I want to be there for that. Do you know if anyone skips that bolt?
No, but I know a few people who have grabbed the draw there. ;)
In reply to: 60-footers notwithstanding; we should definitely hook up and climb some day. I'm quite unlikely to be in SoCal any time soon. (I may be back in Tucson in the not-to-distant future, though.... 8^))
Give me some advanced notice, and maybe we can hook up at the Homestead or something.
-Jay
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daithi
Aug 31, 2005, 10:57 AM
Post #110 of 141
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In reply to: Clip the anchor low to avoid legit moves? Sounds like smart climbing to me! I've done this myself! ... The location of the anchor is exactly where the route ends. Naturally, the climber is free to do whatever the hell they want to (including stick clip?!?!? :P )
I have been to a crag where due to the nature of the rock the crux is often the last move, or last few moves. If you hang a long draw off the anchors and clip from low down you can't really claimed to have redpointed that route at that grade as you have avoided difficult moves just by hanging a long draw.
In reply to: I don't consider clipping the anchor to be required to redpoint a route
Maybe some local ethics vary but most sports climbers I know would consider this part of the redpoint. Is this a commonly held view? How many others don't consider clipping the anchor to be necessary for the rotpunkt ?
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climbsomething
Aug 31, 2005, 11:06 AM
Post #111 of 141
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In reply to: In reply to: 60-footers notwithstanding; we should definitely hook up and climb some day. I'm quite unlikely to be in SoCal any time soon. (I may be back in Tucson in the not-to-distant future, though.... 8^)) Give me some advanced notice, and maybe we can hook up at the Homestead or something. -Jay |
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fracture
Aug 31, 2005, 3:23 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: If the hardest thing to do on redpoint is clip the anchors, I'd just "skip" the anchors by jumping off (or topping out) after I finished climbing. I don't consider clipping the anchor to be required to redpoint a route. You're entitled to subscribe to your own definition of redpoint, but the generally accepted definition of redpoint is that you must clip the anchor.
I don't know if most people actually think that, or simply haven't thought about it. But I'd agree that my definition is likely not the most widely understood definition (but, it's also not only my definition).
There have certainly been other deviations from what you call the "accepted definition", btw. There was a brief fad of sport routes put up in Europe on which the ending "hold" was the anchor itself. People decided this sucked, I gather. I recall hearing about one case (though I don't remember where) where a well-known climber was trying to onsight a route of this sort, but didn't know he was supposed to grab the anchor---eventually he fell trying to figure out where to clip it. (And note, by my definition, all of that is irrelevant because he had finished the actual climbing on the route, which is all that should matter).
In reply to: Sport climbing is a game with a set of accepted "rules." This "rule" makes more sense if you think about it in historical context. Sport climbing grew out of trad climbing. You haven't free climbed a pitch until you are safely clipped into the belay or have topped out. Imagine successfully free climbing to a pure hanging belay midway up a multipitch route. In spite of having got that far, if you fall out of your tenuous finger lock before getting an anchor established, you've clearly blown your free ascent.
Sure, but, as I'm sure you'll grant sport climbing also has a history of changing the established "rules". Even beyond the initial shifts in thinking which were necessary for early sport climbing to develop. (E.g., you used to have to hang draws to claim a redpoint or onsight, you used to only be allowed to stick-clip one bolt, etc).
So, regardless of whether it is the established definition: what is a more consistent formulation that makes sense for the sport? The old rules requiring you to hang draws or lead the whole route (i.e., no stick-clipping) or other things of that nature, just don't make sense from a perspective where sport climbing is about eliminating distractions so you can focus on the actual movement. This is why they gradually died.
It's like Dave joked in his post: "If only that [anchor clip not being required] were true". Well: you can make it true, if you want. How do you think pinkpoints died? The distinction didn't make coherent sense applied to sport climbing, so people stopped paying attention to it.
Clipping an anchor is the same as clipping any other bolt, in terms of its relevance to the actual climbing involved on a route. Yet it would be laughable to suggest that skipping a clip mid-route invalidates your redpoint. Further, focusing on the anchor as the end of the route (instead of just the natural end of the holds) also encourages people to hang a long sling and clip low, possibly avoiding the actual crux or other hard moves of the route (cf. daithi's post).
In reply to: Sport climbs have anchors, and you gotta clip 'em for a redpoint.
So is Action Direct not a real sport route? ;)
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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2005, 3:39 PM
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I've stick clipped my way up 5.13 (FLEX) (FLEX)
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caughtinside
Aug 31, 2005, 3:40 PM
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Interesting post, fracture.
And you're right, I really haven't thought much about the end of the route as being anything other than the anchor. ALso, I haven't climbed any sport routes w/o bolted anchors of some point.
Re: long anchor slings, well, I'd have to say that's kind of bullshit if they're on there just so the climber can avoid doing moves. Bad style, you might even say. :P But if you're hanging a standard QD, even if it does have the 10" bone, well, it's still legit IMO. Hell, a taller climber might not have an issue.
But I have always focused on clipping that first anchor draw before I let myself relax. It is symbolic of the end of the route (as well as being the actual end of the route 8^) ). Are you going to climb higher? Further, the expression 'clipping the chains' has been synonymous with success on a sport route... whether or not there's chains on the route.
I will agree that the case for routes w/ no anchor will be different, but I would imagine that there is a natural ending point on the route somewhere, whether it be a top out, or whatever.
The problem with your definition on a route with anchors is that it's impossible to quantify. "Did you finish?" "Yes, I climbed 3' above the anchor to the end of the natural line then jumped." Now you've got arbitrary opinions as to the end of the route. How do we keep score then? :lol:
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jt512
Aug 31, 2005, 4:08 PM
Post #115 of 141
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: If the hardest thing to do on redpoint is clip the anchors, I'd just "skip" the anchors by jumping off (or topping out) after I finished climbing. I don't consider clipping the anchor to be required to redpoint a route. You're entitled to subscribe to your own definition of redpoint, but the generally accepted definition of redpoint is that you must clip the anchor. I don't know if most people actually think that, or simply haven't thought about it. But I'd agree that my definition is likely not the most widely understood definition (but, it's also not only my definition).
It sounds like it's the definition at some local crag. I suspect that at Rifle, Charleston, Ceuse, and other influential crags, if you fell while trying to clip the anchors, claiming a redpoint would not be respected.
In reply to: There have certainly been other deviations from what you call the "accepted definition", btw.
Pretty much a straw man argument.
In reply to: (And note, by my definition, all of that is irrelevant because he had finished the actual climbing on the route, which is all that should matter).
I don't take this quite as far as you do. A redpoint is still a lead. And a lead isn't completed until you clip the anchors. Sport climbing is mostly about the moves, but not entirely. It's a contrivance -- a game -- with rules, like any game.
In reply to: Clipping an anchor is the same as clipping any other bolt, in terms of its relevance to the actual climbing involved on a route. Yet it would be laughable to suggest that skipping a clip mid-route invalidates your redpoint.
But sport climbing is not strictly about the moves. It's about doing the moves on lead. You cannot claim a redpoint if you merely TRed the route. And not every hard sport climb (say 5.12 and up) is easier to lead than to TR. Most, I'd say, are easier to toprope.
In reply to: Further, focusing on the anchor as the end of the route (instead of just the natural end of the holds) also encourages people to hang a long sling and clip low, possibly avoiding the actual crux or other hard moves of the route (cf. daithi's post).
No, it doesn't. If there are legit moves at the end, you can't skip them by hanging long runners on the anchors and claim a redpoint.
-Jay
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bler
Aug 31, 2005, 4:50 PM
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didn't training and 'working' routes used to be considered 'cheating' or unethical not too long ago ?
i don't know why people are so up on ethical stipulations, just climb and have fun.. do what you feel is right, there is no right or wrong way to make it up a rock !
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lewisiarediviva
Aug 31, 2005, 7:08 PM
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In reply to: I don't consider clipping the anchor to be required to redpoint a route. (And, 'round here, lots of routes don't even have anchors). If not clipping them downgrades the route, I think it's misgraded to begin with---so be it. In reply to: The problem with your definition on a route with anchors is that it's impossible to quantify. "Did you finish?" "Yes, I climbed 3' above the anchor to the end of the natural line then jumped." Now you've got arbitrary opinions as to the end of the route. How do we keep score then? :lol: |
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caughtinside
Aug 31, 2005, 7:16 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: The problem with your definition on a route with anchors is that it's impossible to quantify. "Did you finish?" "Yes, I climbed 3' above the anchor to the end of the natural line then jumped." Now you've got arbitrary opinions as to the end of the route. How do we keep score then? :lol: Up north here, if you come to the natural line where you can stand up and walk off, or walk to other chains and rap off, without falling on the climb, you have redpointed the route.
Walk off routes are different. Are there not routes with bolted anchors where you climb?
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jt512
Aug 31, 2005, 7:26 PM
Post #119 of 141
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In reply to: In reply to: I don't consider clipping the anchor to be required to redpoint a route. (And, 'round here, lots of routes don't even have anchors). If not clipping them downgrades the route, I think it's misgraded to begin with---so be it. In reply to: The problem with your definition on a route with anchors is that it's impossible to quantify. "Did you finish?" "Yes, I climbed 3' above the anchor to the end of the natural line then jumped." Now you've got arbitrary opinions as to the end of the route. How do we keep score then? :lol: Up north here, if you come to the natural line where you can stand up and walk off, or walk to other chains and rap off, without falling on the climb, you have redpointed the route.
Then, all you have to do is get your gear back. You sure you're talking about sport routes?
-Jay
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dangle
Aug 31, 2005, 8:37 PM
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Apples and oranges perhaps, but in the desert I've had to stick clip to REPEAT ROUTES I PUT UP because they have become so altered with traffic.
It is what it is, and you do what you can.
The important thing is to be entirely honest about what you do.
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claramie
Aug 31, 2005, 8:52 PM
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I didn't use a stick clip for the first year and a half that I climbed. I figured that it wasn't the same as leading from the ground. Trad for instance; you're not stick clipping there and it will be a lot harder to get your first clip in.
Having said that, I think climbing is fun because I don't die when I fall. For the same reason that I use a rope instead of free-soloing, I would stick the first bolt instead of taking a nasty deck fall onto something sharp or off of a ledge.
I've decked before multiple times (including 2 weeks ago) and I still wouldn't stick clip unless I tought I'd really injure myself on the landing. But I have no problem with anyone who wants to clip something to keep themselves safe.
CL
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golsen
Aug 31, 2005, 9:23 PM
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In reply to: But I have no problem with anyone who wants to clip something to keep themselves safe. CL
Moderators?!?! I thought there was a rule about interjecting common sense into threads like this? If so, please lecture claramie as they are really crossing over the line. The nerve of some people....
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 31, 2005, 9:46 PM
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There is certainly a time and place for everything. On an aid climb for instance it is fine to stick clip the odd piece of fixed gear but if you do too much then it is not fine. for instance the drilled angles that dangle placed on first pitch of Touchstone were a real bitch for me to reach and i totaly respected the guy that drilled them. it would have been so lame to stick clip every one of them but on the otherhand if you couldn'y reach one or two pieces on a wall it would be stupid to bail over the use of a little cheater stick 8^)
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quiteatingmysteak
Aug 31, 2005, 10:16 PM
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OMFG LSDKJFLSDKJF This one guy i nkow used a stick clip (wtffffff) and i totally told him he should like jump off of a cliffz0rz cuz he is stupid. If you have to stick clip basically satan is your pal.
This other guy i know named Don Welsh, one of the first big developers of Red Rocks sport climbing uses a stick clip!! my GOD he must be terrible! oh wait ya he climbed 5.14 while most of todays proffesionals were watching saturday morning cartoons.
Boo hoo. If you want to take risks go for it. No one thinks your tough but your mom.
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jt512
Aug 31, 2005, 10:19 PM
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In reply to: This other guy i know named Don Welsh, one of the first big developers of Red Rocks sport climbing uses a stick clip!! my GOD he must be terrible! oh wait ya he climbed 5.14 while most of todays proffesionals were watching saturday morning cartoons.
Not only does Don Welsh use a stick clip, he uses a toprope (to climb 5.11 in his flip-flops)!
-Jay
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