Forums: Climbing Information: Gear Heads:
water purifiers
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Gear Heads

Premier Sponsor:

 


meeeegan


Oct 20, 2005, 2:23 AM
Post #1 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 27, 2005
Posts: 31

water purifiers
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Hi,
Joining the Peace Corp, need a water filter that will last for 2 years and not give me a lot of trouble...any suggestions??


rossgoddard


Oct 20, 2005, 2:47 AM
Post #2 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 18, 2003
Posts: 181

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

msr waterworks if weight isnt a huge issue


climbingaggie03


Oct 20, 2005, 3:17 AM
Post #3 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: 1173

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

the uv steripen might be good no maintenance that I know of other than batteries, it is kinda pricey though, also the MSR Miox is pretty good you'd have to have some extra batteries and salt, but those are easy to keep too. I don't know how much you plan on using it, but Most filters eventually need to have their elements replaced, so if you plan to use it alot for 2 years, I'd go with the miox or uv pen cause they're reliable and won't wear out (other than batteries or salt) I know there is one filter that can be backflushed and will be good as new, but I can't remember which filter it is.


shanz


Oct 20, 2005, 4:07 AM
Post #4 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 18, 2004
Posts: 702

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

little off topic but the britta water filters can turn cheap booze into descent sippage!

**disclaimer** been experimenting with this tonight LOL


jimdavis


Oct 20, 2005, 4:26 AM
Post #5 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
the uv steripen might be good no maintenance that I know of other than batteries, it is kinda pricey though, also the MSR Miox is pretty good you'd have to have some extra batteries and salt, but those are easy to keep too. I don't know how much you plan on using it, but Most filters eventually need to have their elements replaced, so if you plan to use it alot for 2 years, I'd go with the miox or uv pen cause they're reliable and won't wear out (other than batteries or salt) I know there is one filter that can be backflushed and will be good as new, but I can't remember which filter it is.

The MSR Miox is the most pain in the ass way to get clean water I've ever seen.

You have to have batteries, test strips, salt...hardly maintenance free.

The MSR ceramic filters can be easily broken, clogs frequently, ect.

IF you want a filter that will frigging last for ever, get the Katadyn Pocket. Ceramic filter, with micro bits of silver that'll kill bacteria in the filter itself.

The MSR filters, not having silver in the filter, you can actually grow a plant in them...not so with the Katadyn.

You can go up to 13,000 gallons before you replace that filter too...need I say more.

http://www.katadyn.ch/...rance_series/pocket/

Screw the Miox, get a Pocket, or a Guide if you dont want to spend that much. Check em out.

I hope you understand the difference between a Filter and a Purifier. Filters dont kill viruses.

Cheers,
Jim


Partner climbinginchico


Oct 20, 2005, 4:53 AM
Post #6 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 24, 2004
Posts: 3032

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Katadyn Pocket. Best out there for what you're looking at.

13,000 gallon life, ceramic filter, field maintainable, durable, etc.


jimdavis


Oct 20, 2005, 6:05 AM
Post #7 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Oh, and the friggin Miox doesn't even get floating shit out of your water...better bring some coffee filters with you to, unless you like having particles in your water...

There's a reason that stores are cutting prices on them to get rid of them...they suck and have been sitting on the shelves for over a year now.

What a piece. :evil:

Jim


rossgoddard


Oct 20, 2005, 9:00 PM
Post #8 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 18, 2003
Posts: 181

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

ive actually had good luck with the miox. batteries are a nonissue- they use a 123 camera battery, which lasts hella long. before you go out for a month, get a new one- not a big deal. the salt lasts a long time, and bring the rock salt along as your salt for cooking salt, killingh two birds with one stone. i didnt use test strips, and i didnt get giardia. for international travel, i think its a solid tool. i may be oldschool, but i still use polar pure/ potable agua for my water treatment. its the lightest around...


climbingaggie03


Oct 20, 2005, 9:14 PM
Post #9 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: 1173

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jimdavis, why are you so pissed off? it's something to keep you from getting sick when you drink water!

I guess maybe I'm kinda old school too, cause I usually use iodine, but I'm thinking about looking into chlorine dioxide (aqua mira?)


nshaver2


Oct 20, 2005, 9:52 PM
Post #10 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 16, 2005
Posts: 47

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

So I know what most of you think of the MSR water filters but what do some of you think about the uv steripen that was mentioned?


memory_hole


Oct 20, 2005, 10:06 PM
Post #11 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 30, 2005
Posts: 162

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
I guess maybe I'm kinda old school too, cause I usually use iodine, but I'm thinking about looking into chlorine dioxide (aqua mira?)
I've been using Aqua Mira for almost two years now, and I love it. It's not quite as convenient as the chorine tablets, because you've got to mix the two solutions, but it works quite a bit faster. The taste is quite mild and honestly hardly noticeable -- nothing like the nasty iodine flavor.


brutusofwyde


Oct 21, 2005, 12:16 AM
Post #12 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
So I know what most of you think of the MSR water filters but what do some of you think about the uv steripen that was mentioned?

Personally, I'm thinking of giving it a try. UV acts more quickly than filtering, far more quickly than chemical treatments, is not temperature or pH dependent as are chemical treatments, and is an approved technology for water treatment. Be aware that it does not kill bacteria or viri, it just renders them unable to reproduce.

No, it doesn't remove toilet paper (nor do MIOX, chlorine tablets, Ozone, or Iodine.) But do you really want to be using water with toilet paper floating in it for your source water??

Admittedly, sometimes you don't have a choice. But the Steripen looks like it might be a good compromise somewhere in between lightweight chemical tablets and full filtration.

Brutus
California DHS Certified Water Treatment Operator, Grade IV


nshaver2


Oct 21, 2005, 2:00 AM
Post #13 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 16, 2005
Posts: 47

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Im confused on what you mean by saying the steripen doesnt kill the bacteria it just makes them unable to reproduce. wouldnt it have to kill them in order to make the water safe to drink?


climbingnurse


Oct 21, 2005, 2:22 AM
Post #14 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 30, 2003
Posts: 420

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Im confused on what you mean by saying the steripen doesnt kill the bacteria it just makes them unable to reproduce. wouldnt it have to kill them in order to make the water safe to drink?

No. Bacteria cause problems when they get in you and go to town reproducing. As long as they can't reproduce inside you, your immune system will kill the small number that you ingest. This is true so long as you are not immunocompromised (HIV+ or on chemo or something like that).

I also suppose it is theoretically possible to ingest enough bacteria to make you ill (without them reproducing), but you'd have to be drinking out of a sewer that was being kept at around 98 degree farenheit.


jimdavis


Oct 21, 2005, 3:04 AM
Post #15 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
jimdavis, why are you so pissed off? it's something to keep you from getting sick when you drink water!

I guess maybe I'm kinda old school too, cause I usually use iodine, but I'm thinking about looking into chlorine dioxide (aqua mira?)

Because it's an expensive piece of shit. Batteries, test strips, salts...all things that can run out in the backcountry. The simplier the better. How are you gonna fix an electronic device in the backcountry?

You can argue the same thing about GPS's, but that why you have a compass. So what then, bring a bunch of iodine too? Then why not use that in the first place? Works in the same amount of time, even smaller and easier to use.

The Miox is a piece, plain and simple. You still have to wait 30 mins for giraurdia...4 hours for crypto! F* that, any filter will take both of those out of a liter of water in under a minute.

You have 3 supplies you have to feed it, (unlike a filter, you can't fix it with a small spare parts kit, duct tape and a leatherman) you still have to wait for clean water, doesn't eliminate floaties, takes 4 hours to take out crypto (and who the hell waits that long for water?) and it's more expensive than any other option.

What's the benefit? That it's half the size of my filter... but still bigger than iodine. That it kills viruses...like iodine. That it has a minimal, but still noticable taste...like iodine after you neutralize it. It's pointless! It's a gadget for guys that like stuff with blinking lights.

I'd really recommend using iodine with the neutralizing tablets, or just a filter. Virus's aren't something that really worry me in the US. Think about how many water born viruses there are....I'm drawing a blank. How do virus's survive/ travel? In HOST cells, big enough to get filtered out!

A friend of mine was asked to test out a Miox for Philmont, where he worked, and he thought the same thing...total piece of shit. My boss lead a trip to Africa...the thing was such a pain in the ass they gave up on it on day 2 and just used iodine for the rest of the 10 day trip.

Unless you wait more than 4 hours it doesn't do a damn thing iodine doesn't. It can easilly break(and you can't fix it like a filter, in the woods)...chemicals can't. It's way more of a pain than my filter will ever be. And it's the most expensive thing I've seen aimed at the average consumer.

Getting back to the original post.
In reply to:
Hi,
Joining the Peace Corp, need a water filter that will last for 2 years and not give me a lot of trouble...any suggestions??

Not the Miox...nothing will give you more trouble that's comercialy made. The Pocket will give you the least.

Good luck choosing,
Jim


climbingaggie03


Oct 21, 2005, 3:47 AM
Post #16 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: 1173

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

dude, first of all, he/she's not in the back country, they're joining the peace corp.

Second, I'd say having 3 supplies that you can plan on needing for every so many liters you clean are better than trying to be prepared for every possible piece that could break on a filter with a parts kit, duct tape, and a leatherman, especially when this filtration/purification method is going to be needed daily for two years.

Third, I doubt particulate matter is going to be a big problem, but have you ever heard of a bandanna? they are miracle workers.

Fourth, whoever is using it is not going to be in the US, so viruses are going to be a concern.

Fifth, unless you start stepping on it, or leave it in front of a stampeding herd of buffalo, I can't see much going wrong with the MIOX itself, it has no moving parts.

Sixth, when you're in a third world country working in the dirt to help people, which would you rather do? mix some coctails every night before you go to bed and adding them to the the water you're going to need the next day? or pumping a bottle everytime you need a drink (possibly offending the people you're working with/for)

seventh, if you didn't notice, I listed 3 options in my first post for the OP, I haven't been pushing the MIOX, I also listed the steri pen, and would have mentioned the name of the filter I'm thinking of if I could remember it, cause I'm trying to help the OP, not start a flame fest.

as a wise man with the initials ND once said, "GOSH"


ajaxjv


Oct 21, 2005, 3:50 AM
Post #17 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 13, 2002
Posts: 44

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

First question is do you want a purifier as you said in your thread title or a filter? The reason I ask is they are two completely different things. A filter takes care of bacteria and protozoa (giardia and Cryptosporidium) but NOT viruses while a purifier takes care of all of that plus viruses (hepatitis). If you are traveling overseas you probably want a purifier.

The miox, steri-pen, and chemical treatments are all purifiers. While the pocket, and MSR miniworks and waterworks are only filters. It is easy to make any filter into a purifier by buying some sort of additional chemical treatment such as MSR makes a Viral Stop that is a mild tasting chlorine solution.

If you go with with a filter i would definitely go with the pocket. If you go with a chemical treatment Iodine treatments are cheap but taste pretty bad even with neutralizers. Aqua Mira, Micropur and other Chlorine Dioxide (same as Miox) are more expensive and you normally have to wait longer but there is little or no taste left in the water.

Good Luck with your choice


aj_77


Oct 21, 2005, 3:59 AM
Post #18 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 18, 2004
Posts: 27

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Aqua Mira is great stuff b/c there is absolutely no taste to it. Sometimes it is a bit of a pain b/c you have to wait 20 minutes, but then again you don't have to pump. I swear by it b/c i don't want to carry the weight of a filter, but weight seems like a non issue for you. I would just keep in mind that very few (if any??) filters will get rid of viruses, so you might end up doing a chemical treatment in the end anyway.

Andrew


jimdavis


Oct 21, 2005, 4:10 AM
Post #19 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
dude, first of all, he/she's not in the back country, they're joining the peace corp.
Your right, they'er not in the backcoutry, they just asked for something that will be give them the least problems, be the easiest to use. And I answered that. It doesn't matter if your in New York City or the backcountry, your not gonna fix one of those without sending it back.

In reply to:
Second, I'd say having 3 supplies that you can plan on needing for every so many liters you clean are better than trying to be prepared for every possible piece that could break on a filter with a parts kit, duct tape, and a leatherman, especially when this filtration/purification method is going to be needed daily for two years.

A parts kit consisting of a few O rings and lube would be a lot smaller than 10 bottles of salts, test strips, and batteries. Leatherman and duct tape you should have already.

In reply to:
Third, I doubt particulate matter is going to be a big problem, but have you ever heard of a bandanna? they are miracle workers.
Yep, there's one more thing to do every time you fill up.

In reply to:
Fourth, whoever is using it is not going to be in the US, so viruses are going to be a concern.
The rest of the world isn't nescessaily diseased...there are places where a filter would be fine. Crypto if far more prevelant, and the Miox taking 4hr's to kill it fails there, because most people that use that device won't wait 4 hrs for it to work.

In reply to:
Fifth, unless you start stepping on it, or leave it in front of a stampeding herd of buffalo, I can't see much going wrong with the MIOX itself, it has no moving parts.
It's electronic...electronics can fail, and are not repairable by the average user.

In reply to:
Sixth, when you're in a third world country working in the dirt to help people, which would you rather do? mix some coctails every night before you go to bed and adding them to the the water you're going to need the next day? or pumping a bottle everytime you need a drink (possibly offending the people you're working with/for)
Or filter the water the night before too, lets not compair apples to oranges.

And yes, I'd rather take 45 secs to pump a liter of water than measure out salt, then turn the device on...wait, change the batteries; ok, now make the brine...wait for it to finish...test it...test it again, as directed; oops, too little salt, remake brine; test it, test it again...dump it in....wait 4 hours....strain out with a bandana. Yes, that's worst case...but you get the point. Do I want to do that for every liter of water I drink? I'll pump for 45 secs, thanks.

In reply to:
seventh, if you didn't notice, I listed 3 options in my first post for the OP, I haven't been pushing the MIOX, I also listed the steri pen, and would have mentioned the name of the filter I'm thinking of if I could remember it, cause I'm trying to help the OP, not start a flame fest.
This isn't a flame fest, I didn't say a work about you or even quote your posts i don't think. I'm just saying the Miox sucks. If you want to use it, fine...but there are a multitude of reasons not to. Every person I've met that's used one agrees with me. If you perfer a Miox, fine.

In reply to:
as a wise man with the initials ND once said, "GOSH"

I don't have anything to say to that :oops:

Cheers,
Jim


david.yount
Deleted

Oct 21, 2005, 10:08 AM
Post #20 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered:
Posts:

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I wish I had the answers. All I have are questions.

The Original Poster (OP) is seeking a system to improve water quality.

Does "she" know with reliable intelligence that her likely water supply for her 2 year job is recommended to be treated?

Or, will she have a water supply that is considered "safe" and she is recommended to have a treatment system "in case?"

These opening questions yield vital information for basing a robust answer to the OP question. You cannot drink iodine water for more than 2 weeks.

Unless her assignment is in a completely new area (very unlikely) it should be easy to learn what the previous Peace Corps Volunteers did for daily water needs, their habits, their transgressions, any ill consequences....

It would be nice if she might get 2 full runs of metronidazole, just in case of giardiasis. I am completely ignorant how likely an MD might prescribe metronidazole prophilactically? And there might be newer medicines to research.

If her needs are for "in case" water treatment then iodine is a consideration, with the challenges known that those tiny tablets must be kept dry, very dry. This task is not as simple on a PC assignment for 2 years as the dear reader might posit. Or, tincture of iodine could be substituted. Iodine is not a sure thing against Cryptosporidium.

But my biggest point is to consider if this "in case" situation funks into "full time" water treatment. Iodine is urgently recommended a 2-week maximum. Iodine treated water should not be ingested for more than 2-weeks.

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention treatment of water for drinking

Similar but different

Guide to Water Filters and Bottled Water


Mechanical filtration, with absolute pore size less than 1.0 micron should remove everything, except viruses. Some hand pumps have secondary treatment that additionally deals with viruses (how do you 'deal' with them, they were never alive???)

Commonly, water that is hand pumped (through a filter) that needs to be treated for viruses is dosed with sodium hypochlorite (household bleach) or tetraglycine hydroperiodide tablets (iodine). If you dose (allow sufficient contact time) and then pump, your pump will remove the presence of the iodine or chlorine. However, both dosings work better after pumping, especially bleach depending on the pH and amount of organic matter. Yes, this decision of sequencing can be important.

If a hand pump were desired, I would select the Mountain Safety Research (MSR) Waterworks EX and then pre-treat with 5 drops of bleach per quart of water before pumping. Remember to allow appropriate contact time of bleach before pumping. You can even buy the chlorine bleach in a nice package.

MSR has a new product (seems like they bought this design from a former rival) the Sweetwater. It's a bit less physically challenging to pump than the Waterworks EX and it has a noticeably faster flow rate. I own this design by the original manufacturer.

The Waterworks EX is rated 2,000 liters, the Sweetwater is rated 800 liters.

You might use 2 ~ 3 liters a day for drinking and cooking, which results in 1,800 liters for 2 full years at 2.5 liters every day.

But if your water treatment system will be used exclusively where you live then a gravity system is the bomb! Katadyn Base Camp. No pumping! It filters while you sleep.

David Yount.


jimdavis


Oct 21, 2005, 5:29 PM
Post #21 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
You cannot drink iodine water for more than 2 weeks.
it might not be recommended, but there are plenty of people that have used it on the AT...6 months on average.

In reply to:
Iodine is not a sure thing against Cryptosporidium.
Actually, it's know not to do anything to it. Katadyn took some crypto and put it in vats of iodine for 24 hours, or longer...don't remember, and this stuff came out just the same. It is big enought to filter it out with a standard filter though.

In reply to:
If a hand pump were desired, I would select the Mountain Safety Research (MSR) Waterworks EX and then pre-treat with 5 drops of bleach per quart of water before pumping. Remember to allow appropriate contact time of bleach before pumping. You can even buy the chlorine bleach in a nice package.

MSR has a new product (seems like they bought this design from a former rival) the Sweetwater. It's a bit less physically challenging to pump than the Waterworks EX and it has a noticeably faster flow rate. I own this design by the original manufacturer.

I've used that one a few times, and the Katadyn Guide is a much faster filter. Last I checked there wasn't a huge difference in filter size either. The Guide is really a beefed up, faster Hiker.

Cheers,
Jim


trenchdigger


Oct 21, 2005, 6:03 PM
Post #22 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 9, 2003
Posts: 1447

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
And yes, I'd rather take 45 secs to pump a liter of water than measure out salt, then turn the device on...wait, change the batteries; ok, now make the brine...wait for it to finish...test it...test it again, as directed; oops, too little salt, remake brine; test it, test it again...dump it in....wait 4 hours....strain out with a bandana. Yes, that's worst case...but you get the point. Do I want to do that for every liter of water I drink? I'll pump for 45 secs, thanks.

Your worst case is the exception to the norm. Why not consider the worst case with your other proposed methods of purification?

Iodine doesn't take care of crypto, tastes like shit, and can cause health problems in some people, especially with extended use.

Filters do nothing to viruses, clog, are time consuming, and can break.

Chlorine tabs are a decent option, but require an extended dwell time (like MIOX), have a stronger taste/smell than the MIOX treated water, and don't remove any dirt.

The Steri Pen is great if you want to treat a glass of water at a time, but for extended daily use, this device would truly be a pain in the ass.

For most competent MIOX users, it takes a few seconds to fill the device, a few more to close it and shake it, then you press the button, LEDs light up, then turn off, and you pour your chemical into the container with the water you're treating. Salt only needs to refilled occasionally and doesn't need to involve "measuring." Batteries last a long time. Test strips are unnecessary once you understand how the simple procedure works.

The best option I see is to use a MIOX and treat water in bulk. Keep a 5-7 gal container handy and treat and store water in that. With that size container, one treatment session should last you about a week. If the water is really dirty, filtration may be necessary as well. Gravity feed systems are best for treating larger quantities of water in more permanent locations. Chlorine tabs or Iodine would be wise as a backup plan in case you have problems.


jimdavis


Oct 22, 2005, 3:47 AM
Post #23 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
And yes, I'd rather take 45 secs to pump a liter of water than measure out salt, then turn the device on...wait, change the batteries; ok, now make the brine...wait for it to finish...test it...test it again, as directed; oops, too little salt, remake brine; test it, test it again...dump it in....wait 4 hours....strain out with a bandana. Yes, that's worst case...but you get the point. Do I want to do that for every liter of water I drink? I'll pump for 45 secs, thanks.

Your worst case is the exception to the norm. Why not consider the worst case with your other proposed methods of purification?

Iodine doesn't take care of crypto, tastes like s---, and can cause health problems in some people, especially with extended use.

Filters do nothing to viruses, clog, are time consuming, and can break.

Filters don't clog that often. MSR's do, cause they have a smaller surface area then other filters. Iodine doesn't taste that bad...get over it, honestly. And any chemical can cause health problems in people with extended use, including chlorine.

Filters are time consuming? My Guide pumps a liter of water in 35 secs...how long does it take you to get a bottle or water ready with your Miox? Besides the wait time that is...I'll bet it's quite a bit longer.

Either way, the Miox takes a lot of supplies to keep feeding it, steps to do, it's not field maintanable, ect.

Get a First Need purifier if you think you'll need a purifier.

Cheers,
Jim

I'l


david.yount
Deleted

Oct 22, 2005, 7:29 AM
Post #24 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered:
Posts:

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Filters don't clog that often. MSR's do [clog], cause they have a smaller surface area then other filters.

It's true that filters don't clog that often. Actually, I've pumped personally with my own hands well over 500 gallons of water, and none of my filters has ever clogged. This is anecdotal proof that filters do not clog. I'd add that I always use a pre-filter on the inlet of the intake hose and I only use water that is visibly clear.

This girl in the Peace Corps is not using visibly polluted water for a drinking source. Any discussions about which filter is better for drinking conditions from a highly organic muddy puddle with lots of suspended solids is not germaine to her needs.

But I am curious as to your evidence to support your claims that, first, MSR Waterworks EX ceramic filter elements do clog. Second, that they clog more often than "other filters." Third, that the fundamental reason MSR Waterworks ceramic filters clog more often than other filters is because MSR filters have a smaller surface area than other filters.

First, I've never had observed this failure mode, nor have I heard of this failure mode with MSR Mniworks, Waterworks, or Waterworks EX (they all use the same ceramic element). If perceived flow rate is dimished with the MSR element it's a very simple and easy task to clean the element.

Second, I've never observed nor have I heard of this.

Third, if your scoping is open then I am certain you are inaccurate as to the second part of the last claim. For example, you exclusively recommended the Katadyn Pocket in your earlier posts, and the filter element in that device is certainly smaller in diameter and in height than the MSR element in question. The MSR element has significantly more surface area for inlet of water than the element in the Katadyn Pocket.

In reply to:
My Guide pumps a liter of water in 35 secs

I think this value has low relevance, I don't believe this flow rate is reasonable for the specific conditions on this thread. I do not believe that meeeghan is going to produce 1 liter of water through any filter in 35 seconds. I'm sure she could produce 1 liter in 120 seconds, perhaps comfortably. I doubt she's treating all the water she's drinking, I believe a treatment system is a backup.

Regardless, if it's "just in case" or it's "daily standard operating procedure" she's not going to pump at a competitive or anxious manner.

In reply to:
Iodine doesn't taste that bad...get over it, honestly.

Iodine does have an unsavory flavor, that is widely recognized. But that was never my intention to communicate. Iodine treated water should not be used for longer than 2 weeks. That advisory is even more widely recognized. For my own health and safety decisions I'm not one to follow the examples of individuals that make marginal choices and seemingly suffer no accute pathology. Just because some individuals smoke american cigarettes from age 13 to age 83 does not in any way decrease the well known and publicized facts that smoking is extremely injurious to health. Appalacian Trail (maine to georgia) hikers drinking iodine treated water for 6 months, similarily, don't much influence my knowlege of physiology and iodine's action with the thryroid.

High levels / Overdose / Toxicity / Negative Side Effects - Symptoms and/or Risk Factors:

Palpitations / irregular heartbeat, tachycardia, throat tightness, insomnia, skin rash, sweating, goiter, exophthalmos ("bug-eyes"), weight loss, intolerance to heat, hyperthyroid, hypothyroid,

During pregnancy: potential hypothyroidism, thyroid enlargement, or cretinism in infant,

It is important not to over-consume iodine as it has a relatively narrow range of intakes that reliably support good thyroid function (about 100 to 300 micrograms per day). Someone consuming large amounts of iodised salt or seaweeds could readily overdo it. Excessive iodine has a complex disruptive effect on the thyroid and may cause either hypothyroidism or hyperthyroidism, as well as increasing the risk of thyroid cancer

Hypothyroidism can manifest as low energy levels, dry or scaly or yellowish skin, tingling and numbness in extremities, weight gain, forgetfulness, personality changes, depression, anaemia, and prolonged and heavy periods in women. Goiter, an enlarged thyroid gland visible between the Adam's apple and the collar bone, is often present. Hypothyroidism can also cause carpal tunnel syndrome and Raynaud's phenomenon. Hypothyroidism can lead to significant increases in cholesterol levels and homocysteine levels is implicated in about 10% of cases of high cholesterol levels.

Hyperthyroidism may manifest as an enlarged thyroid (goiter), heart rate irregularities, tremor, sweating, palpitations, nervousness and increased activity and eye abnormalities. Some individuals deliberately take kelp to try to lose weight by over stimulating the thyroid. This is a dangerous practice.

david yount.


deserteaglle


Oct 22, 2005, 1:39 PM
Post #25 of 30 (2877 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 21, 2005
Posts: 1617

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Well, I will just post my personal experience, and not condone it or condemn it one way or the other. This is what I did, but I am not trying to recomend it, though I had no problems.

I was in Kenya last summer for six weeks, and while there I met some other Americans who were very paranoid about the water. They said to not even brush your teeth with it.

Most of the time I used a handheld pump for my drinking water(can't remember the brand). I used the tap water to brush my teeth. And once or twice I had to drink unpurified local water. Nothing bad ever happened to me...well I did have diahrea once, but diahrea won't kill you, it's just a little uncomfortable. If the locals drink it it won't kill you, but at worst make you sick, which you don't want to be if you're trying to help sick locals.

Have a good time.


meeeegan


Oct 22, 2005, 2:27 PM
Post #26 of 30 (2371 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 27, 2005
Posts: 31

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Wow,
So i got some really good answers and some really intnese ones. I don't know what t he water is going to be like and on my packing list, they did reccommend bringing a water filter/purifier. I don't know what I'll be dealing with, but i do know that they use "disposable" items like diapers, wipes, and so on with out having a waste management program. So where do you think that all of this stuff goes? On the ground, in the ocean, where ever they feel like putting it. So that is my main concern.
I've read about how they boil water, but some people still get sick and i don't really want my first 6 months to be spent on the toilet while i build up an immune to it.
Anyway, thanks for all the answers. I really appreciate it. climb hard for me b/c i won't be able to climb....
Meeeeegan


meeeegan


Oct 22, 2005, 2:33 PM
Post #27 of 30 (2371 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 27, 2005
Posts: 31

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

[quote="meeeegan"]Wow,
So i got some really good answers and some really intense ones. I don't know what the water is going to be like and on my packing list, they did reccommend bringing a water filter/purifier. I don't know what I'll be dealing with, but i do know that they use "disposable" items like diapers, wipes, and so on with out having a waste management program. So where do you think that all of this stuff goes? On the ground, in the ocean, where ever they feel like putting it. So that is my main concern.
I've read about how they boil water, but some people still get sick and i don't really want my first 6 months to be spent on the toilet while i build up an immune to it.
Anyway, thanks for all the answers. I really appreciate it. climb hard for me b/c i won't be able to climb....
Meeeeegan


brutusofwyde


Oct 23, 2005, 1:34 AM
Post #28 of 30 (2371 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

meeeegan,

I've read over this entire thread, and my recommendation for your use would be a gravity water filter. Whatever size and cost suit your budget and your luggage restrictions, if you're purchasing before going, but the bigger the better within those limits.

I would follow that up with a post-filtration dose of sodium hypochlorite in the 1 mg/l residual range (1 ppm).

A test kit for free chlorine residual would be handy to get your chemical dosage right, after a short time you wouldn't need it unless you change source water or open a new bottle of bleach. You can get a test kit at a pool supply store. Get a healthy supply of DPD "Free chlorine residual" test tablets.

One thing to remember is that contact time with your chemical disinfectant is imperative: The longer your contact time, the lower a chemical dosage you need. Hence the "Bigger is better" recomendation for your gravity filter: you can filter a big quantity of water, then let is set with the chemical dose for... say... 8 hours. If your contact time before consuming your water can be extended to 24 hours, you could probably cut that dosage to 0.5 ppm free chlorine residual, if your water temperature is above 55-60 degrees. Sorry if this seems to be getting complex, but I think this thread has progressed beyond the point of simple answers.

Someone asked how can you "kill" viruses if they're not alive?

At this point, we're getting into the gray area of our definition of life. Viral particles are capable of reproducing in a host, they can mutate, and at that point, if it makes you sick, does it matter whether they meet our somewhat foggy definition of life?

Chlorine, Iodine, Ozone, Chlorine Dioxide (Miox) all are powerful oxidizers. They chemically react with the compounds that comprise viruses. For all intents and purposes, they kill them.

Boiling is good, but a hassle, requires lots of heat, and some critters are pretty resistant to these temperatures. Giardia and Cryptosporidium are not among them. By the time your water reaches the boiling point at sea level, Giardia is long past dead.

Giardia and Cryptosporidium ARE, however, pretty darn resistant to chemical disinfectants: they form cysts to protect themselves from the nasty environment outside the mammalian gut. Hence the recommended combination of filtration (for cyst-forming protozooans and bacteria of all makes and models) and chemical disinfection to take care of the virus bad guys.

Good luck, and Kudos to you for doing something positive in the world.

Brutus of Wyde


meeeegan


Oct 23, 2005, 4:15 AM
Post #29 of 30 (2371 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 27, 2005
Posts: 31

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Wow,
So i got some really good answers and some really intnese ones. I don't know what t he water is going to be like and on my packing list, they did reccommend bringing a water filter/purifier. I don't know what I'll be dealing with, but i do know that they use "disposable" items like diapers, wipes, and so on with out having a waste management program. So where do you think that all of this stuff goes? On the ground, in the ocean, where ever they feel like putting it. So that is my main concern.
I've read about how they boil water, but some people still get sick and i don't really want my first 6 months to be spent on the toilet while i build up an immune to it.
Anyway, thanks for all the answers. I really appreciate it. climb hard for me b/c i won't be able to climb....
Meeeeegan


chrisb79


Oct 23, 2005, 6:01 AM
Post #30 of 30 (2371 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 22, 2005
Posts: 14

Re: water purifiers [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I'd recommend the Katadyn Hiker

Have been using one for about 6 months now, not changed the element yet despite using some very thick water from peat bogs.


Forums : Climbing Information : Gear Heads

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook