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styndall
Apr 25, 2006, 4:54 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: The thresh-hold for believing in the Christian God is higher still, especially since it looks a lot like the commonly disbelieved mythologies of hundreds of other cultures, world-wide. Do you have any examples that have had the longevity and/or number of followers of Christianity, from "mythologies of hundreds of other cultures, world-wide"?
Well, the population explosion in recent centuries rules out a raw numbers comparison, though if you want to play a popularity contest, I expect the Hindu religion or Buddhism to bring numbers quite close to the fore. And the Vedic religion, which forms the basis for that of the Hindu (c.f. religion of Abraham against modern Judaism and Christianity) is at least as old, probably older than the semitic religions.
Historically speaking, religions come and go. The practices of the Greeks and Romans, for instance, the tree knowledge of the Celts, the animism of the First Peoples of the American continents.
In reply to: In reply to: It might well be comforting to take the view that the most powerful being in the universe cares about everything you do for your entire life, but that's also profoundly self-centered, and the rest of the universe is distinctly not centered around me. Such a self-centered world view seems likely to be a sort of comforting wishful thinking. I'm amazed that some people can understand what is involved in having a Christian faith, and then construe the polar opposite of it's significance.
I'm not misconstruing its internal significance, but rather suggesting external reasons. The universe is big an apathetic. The horse-head nebula doesn't care if I break my leg or die in a fire. Creating something yet larger that does is an issue of comfort.
In reply to: In reply to: Likewise, it seems that just the happenstance of history that Christianity gains primacy now. Other religions have held sway in their times, and doubtless yet others will take their place in the future. Primacy now? You mean compared to the 1900s? 1800s? 1700s? How long ago was this not the case?
I'm a historical linguist. I'm looking at things on the scale of time since humans invented writing. Christianity only recently widespread on that scale of time.
In reply to: You seem intent on looking for exceptions to punch holes in the obvious. :wink: Unicorns? Stamp collecting? Pederasty?
I'm not looking for exceptions. I'm looking for the broad patterns of human existence. Despite vast differences in time and space, the human experience is quite similar everywhere.
And as to the unicorns business, think of ghosts or vampires or hydras or any of thousands upon thousands of the monsters of myth. Think of Zeus and Apolla, of Jupiter and Diana, of Indra and Agni.
You believe in none of these.
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thorne
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Apr 25, 2006, 5:22 PM
Post #102 of 117
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: The thresh-hold for believing in the Christian God is higher still, especially since it looks a lot like the commonly disbelieved mythologies of hundreds of other cultures, world-wide. Do you have any examples that have had the longevity and/or number of followers of Christianity, from "mythologies of hundreds of other cultures, world-wide"? Well, the population explosion in recent centuries rules out a raw numbers comparison, though if you want to play a popularity contest, I expect the Hindu religion or Buddhism to bring numbers quite close to the fore. And the Vedic religion, which forms the basis for that of the Hindu (c.f. religion of Abraham against modern Judaism and Christianity) is at least as old, probably older than the semitic religions. Historically speaking, religions come and go.
In reply to: The practices of the Greeks and Romans, for instance, the tree knowledge of the Celts, the animism of the First Peoples of the American continents.
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Likewise, it seems that just the happenstance of history that Christianity gains primacy now. Other religions have held sway in their times, and doubtless yet others will take their place in the future. Primacy now? You mean compared to the 1900s? 1800s? 1700s? How long ago was this not the case? I'm a historical linguist. I'm looking at things on the scale of time since humans invented writing. Christianity only recently widespread on that scale of time.
Kind of like using geologic time to diminish the history of man.
In reply to: In reply to: You seem intent on looking for exceptions to punch holes in the obvious. :wink: Unicorns? Stamp collecting? Pederasty? I'm not looking for exceptions. I'm looking for the broad patterns of human existence. Despite vast differences in time and space, the human experience is quite similar everywhere. And as to the unicorns business, think of ghosts or vampires or hydras or any of thousands upon thousands of the monsters of myth.
Are you saying there were large groups of people where the majority believed in unicorns or vampires?
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styndall
Apr 25, 2006, 5:28 PM
Post #103 of 117
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In reply to: The problem is that people expect the infinite to be revealed to them without so much as setting down the beer in their hand. In other words, they want everthing for nothing. But it don't work that way in my experience. JL
Good grief.
I'm spending my days reading the texts of the Western World's oldest religions in their original languages, and you're saying I'm trying to get my experience for nothing?
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styndall
Apr 25, 2006, 5:34 PM
Post #104 of 117
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Thorne,
What I'm saying is that Christianity is not unique in the history of the world. Lots of people have been convinced that they were right in lots of different ways throughout human history.
I stuck to the ones that have stuck around because you're more likely to know about them. The deities of the Hittites and Luwians and the Assyrians and Akkadians (older far than Hebrew monotheism) are largely unknown here in the west.
If you want religions with ancient pedigree, look especially to Zoroastrians. If you want religions with great numbers of followers, look to Buddhism. If you want religions with people willing to die for their faith, look to Islam. If you want the religion that the leaders of industrialized nations follow, look to Christianity.
But hell, any quick read through the bible should tell you that the Christianity of modern America isn't a lot like the Christianity of the very early church, and certainly is nothing like the religion of the pre-Christ Hebrews. In ritual, they shared more with the sacrifice rites of the Greeks than they do with modern Christians.
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lagr01
Apr 25, 2006, 6:38 PM
Post #105 of 117
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In reply to: Yes, I am a lawyer and I have some moral decency. Don't act so surprised.
Not that surprised, I used to be a lawyer as well and I have some moral decency too.
In reply to: How about a fat guy in a box?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You're sick, man. I don't even want to imagine what your temporary internet files look like. :shock:
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bobd1953
Apr 25, 2006, 6:45 PM
Post #106 of 117
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These threads are like the movie "Groundhog Day". Same crap over and over...
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vivalargo
Apr 25, 2006, 9:02 PM
Post #107 of 117
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In reply to: In reply to: The problem is that people expect the infinite to be revealed to them without so much as setting down the beer in their hand. In other words, they want everthing for nothing. But it don't work that way in my experience. JL Good grief. I'm spending my days reading the texts of the Western World's oldest religions in their original languages, and you're saying I'm trying to get my experience for nothing?
This approach (I did it for years myself) assumes that you can, and should be able to, wrangle down the infinite by reading the second-hand accounts and descritions of other people. But these accounts are simply maps, and as I've said before, the map ain't the territory.
The other issue is the business of "proof." No serious theological or philosopher thinker is going to suscribe a literal take on scripture of any kind. So if you're requiring "proof" of a kind that susports what no serious thinker proposes, and label same as so many unicorns, your interest will probably remain more on disputing unicorns than truly trying to hone in on the transcendent. To demand the discovery of, say, the super structure of the Tower of Bable as "proof" of "God," borders on the chicken shit. That's like demanding to see what you already know is not there.
JL
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blondgecko
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Apr 25, 2006, 9:11 PM
Post #108 of 117
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In reply to: In reply to: So, here is an offer for you, BD, I will buy you a book and send it to you that deals with some of these so called "contradictions". But, I'll only do this if you think you can read with an open mind willing to learn, even if it curbs your preconcieved notions. (I'm not asking you to convert at all.) If that is of no interest to you then go back to reading the sites that only say what you want to hear. Post your response here and you can pm me your address. Nope, I'm not going to tell you the title, my perrogative. Aaron Anyway, I'm offering you a whole book, for free, that has plenty of proofs in it, researched by experts in their field. The question is are you open minded enough to read it or not? I don't think so, so prove me wrong.
Oh, you were talking to me? I thought you were talking to Boondock Saint. Sure, I'll read your book. I'll even review it for you. But, rather than make you go through the trouble of sending it all the way down here to the arse end of the world, how about you just give me the title and authors and I'll look it up for myself?
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vivalargo
Apr 25, 2006, 10:33 PM
Post #110 of 117
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In reply to: These threads are like the movie "Groundhog Day". Same crap over and over...
Bob is right about this, you know. To gain any ground you have to move outside the regular arguments or it's back to square one every time.
JL
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coloredchalker
Apr 25, 2006, 10:38 PM
Post #111 of 117
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: So, here is an offer for you, BD, I will buy you a book and send it to you that deals with some of these so called "contradictions". But, I'll only do this if you think you can read with an open mind willing to learn, even if it curbs your preconcieved notions. (I'm not asking you to convert at all.) If that is of no interest to you then go back to reading the sites that only say what you want to hear. Post your response here and you can pm me your address. Nope, I'm not going to tell you the title, my perrogative. Aaron Anyway, I'm offering you a whole book, for free, that has plenty of proofs in it, researched by experts in their field. The question is are you open minded enough to read it or not? I don't think so, so prove me wrong. Oh, you were talking to me? I thought you were talking to Boondock Saint. Sure, I'll read your book. I'll even review it for you. But, rather than make you go through the trouble of sending it all the way down here to the arse end of the world, how about you just give me the title and authors and I'll look it up for myself?
Oh uh, sorry for the confusion on my part, yeah I was talking to Boondock Saint. And any way I cant treat anything you say as credible because your possesed by the devil. :wink: 142 just kidding.
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bobd1953
Apr 25, 2006, 10:56 PM
Post #112 of 117
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The "burden of proof" is on the shoulders of the believer...not the non-believer.
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jumpingrock
Apr 25, 2006, 11:03 PM
Post #113 of 117
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In reply to: In reply to: These threads are like the movie "Groundhog Day". Same crap over and over... Bob is right about this, you know. To gain any ground you have to move outside the regular arguments or it's back to square one every time. JL
To gain any ground in this argument you need god to say "I exist now stop being asses to each other" to every human being at the same time. If the whole world heard the same sentence (in their language of choice) at the same time, there wouldn't be many disbelievers left. People would still argue over which god spoke to everybody but that's a differant argument. It would take this god something like 1 minute of effort (ok maybe 10 minutes if the sentence should be drafted up first). Until this happens, I and countless others, will either believe that there is no god, or if there is he doesn't give a rats ass about what happens here and therefore does not deserve our worship.
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vivalargo
Apr 25, 2006, 11:29 PM
Post #114 of 117
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: These threads are like the movie "Groundhog Day". Same crap over and over... Bob is right about this, you know. To gain any ground you have to move outside the regular arguments or it's back to square one every time. JL To gain any ground in this argument you need god to say "I exist now stop being asses to each other" to every human being at the same time. If the whole world heard the same sentence (in their language of choice) at the same time, there wouldn't be many disbelievers left. People would still argue over which god spoke to everybody but that's a differant argument. It would take this god something like 1 minute of effort (ok maybe 10 minutes if the sentence should be drafted up first). Until this happens, I and countless others, will either believe that there is no god, or if there is he doesn't give a rats ass about what happens here and therefore does not deserve our worship.
IMO, the entire shebang with spirituality issues from the bit above--"I exist," which leads to "we exist." Once you drop into the brute fact of this existence and dwell there for awhile things start opening up in amazing ways. Beyond that it's just all a bunch of talk.
JL
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blondgecko
Moderator
Apr 25, 2006, 11:30 PM
Post #115 of 117
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: So, here is an offer for you, BD, I will buy you a book and send it to you that deals with some of these so called "contradictions". But, I'll only do this if you think you can read with an open mind willing to learn, even if it curbs your preconcieved notions. (I'm not asking you to convert at all.) If that is of no interest to you then go back to reading the sites that only say what you want to hear. Post your response here and you can pm me your address. Nope, I'm not going to tell you the title, my perrogative. Aaron Anyway, I'm offering you a whole book, for free, that has plenty of proofs in it, researched by experts in their field. The question is are you open minded enough to read it or not? I don't think so, so prove me wrong. Oh, you were talking to me? I thought you were talking to Boondock Saint. Sure, I'll read your book. I'll even review it for you. But, rather than make you go through the trouble of sending it all the way down here to the arse end of the world, how about you just give me the title and authors and I'll look it up for myself? Oh uh, sorry for the confusion on my part, yeah I was talking to Boondock Saint. And any way I cant treat anything you say as credible because your possesed by the devil. :wink: 142 just kidding.
My offer still stands.
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blondgecko
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Apr 27, 2006, 12:50 PM
Post #116 of 117
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That's pretty much what I figured.
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coloredchalker
Apr 27, 2006, 12:59 PM
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In reply to: That's pretty much what I figured.
You talkin ta me? Exucse my sluggish response. I'm going to give BDS (as in Boondock Saint) a little longer to respond and if I don't hear anything in a day or two I'll send you the title. We're chillin
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