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grimpiperx
May 2, 2006, 4:15 AM
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If there is a problem in a guide book that says something to the effect of "Sit start on two small crimps and climb through slopey crimps to top" Is it a legit send of that problem if you sit start on the two small crimps grab one of the on problem crimps and then dyno straight to the lip? Hasn't Klem Loskot been known to do this? Could this dyno be an easier grade or is this taken into account by the person who got the FA? I would greatly appreciate any input of whether that is a send or not. Yes I know it's rock climbing and I do it for fun and all this shite doesn't matter so I don't really need to be told that.
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styndall
May 2, 2006, 4:31 AM
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I think that's what we in the biz call 'an eliminate.' It could be easier or harder. No one will much care what holds you used to get to the top.
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fobnicat
May 2, 2006, 5:27 AM
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I have alwyas gone on the assumption that bouldering is basically getting to the top anyway you can... if that means that you dont use half the holds that everyone else does, then thats their problem.. but thats my 2cents and im sure i will get pissed on for it.. haha :lol:
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machino
May 2, 2006, 5:43 AM
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Not only do I think it is un-ethical but is also immoral. Think of what all those FA's must think when kid jump past all their shit slopes to get to some bomber crimps. I would stick to the problem established. :tinfoilhat: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :nono: :!: :righton: :arrow: :arrow: :boring:
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cactusedd
May 2, 2006, 6:54 AM
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Quite frankly, I really don't care what the first ascentionists think of the style in which I climbed their problem :lol: I'm 6'2" and make use of every inch of my ape index when I climb, so odds are that I'm probably not going to climb the problem in the same style as the FA.
I do agree with the sentiment that by skipping holds, you are in effect creating an eliminate and it could be either more or less difficult than the original. Bottom line, though, I don't really think anyone is going to question the legitimacy of a send except for those climbing at the highest levels and ethical purists with too much time on their hands.
Regards,
Edd
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overlord
May 2, 2006, 7:15 AM
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where does it say that you MUST use all the holds. this is not the gym, remeber??
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skiclimb
May 2, 2006, 7:33 AM
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If you are on top of a pebble just remeber I am looking down on you.
I am sure I didnt see if you followed the rules nor do I care.
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skiclimb
May 2, 2006, 7:37 AM
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If you are on top of a pebble just remember I am looking down on you.
I am sure I didnt see if you followed the rules nor do I care.
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skiclimb
May 2, 2006, 7:39 AM
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If you are on top of a pebble just remember I am looking down on you.
I am sure I didnt see if you followed the rules nor do I care.
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fobnicat
May 2, 2006, 2:44 PM
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I think its rediculous to be expected to use all the holds.. Im only about 5'7, with a negative age length of about 1 inch... Im screwed for the most part.. But if I train myself to be able to dyno past moves I dont like, or reach.. Then I believe it is perfectly ethical... Grades are subjective anyways.. For someone 6'2, a route might be hella easy where as for someone like me, its extremely reachy... Grade should be hella different due to this... Grades are subjective.. If you want to argue with that go find a wall... On the same note, someone 6'2 is going to have alot more problems on scrunchy climbs wehre I would feel most comfortable.. So why sohuld they not be allowed to skip past holds? As long as they get to the top... And who cares about F.A. Awesome, they climbed it before anyone else.. But that doesnt mean they set the rules for it.. They jsut get to name it.. Im not gonna go through and use an open hand when they used and open hand, drop knee when they drop knee, and smear the same way they smear.. So why should I be expected to use every hold as them?
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j_ung
May 2, 2006, 3:04 PM
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Depends on whether the problem is an eliminate or not. Personally, I don't much care for eliminates other than for training value.
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hema
May 2, 2006, 3:16 PM
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Without any more w*nking, if you only use the hods that belong to the route/problem (be it a stupid eliminate or not). It's a done deal if you top it... some people use different sequencies on problems because they are "too" short or long or what ever...
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curtis_g
May 2, 2006, 3:18 PM
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i always figured that if somone finds a better way to complete a problem or even a route that the FA didn't see or particularly use, then the grade should change accordingly. it's hard to FA or onsight so it might seem like a harder route when you set it but, IMO, if you suddenly see this new feature to stem or sidepull or whatever that you didnt see before well then your route or problem is actually easier than you first thought.
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dingus
May 2, 2006, 3:21 PM
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Sit starts are stupid anyway. If you can reach the top by standing on the ground you've already sent the problem.
DMT
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tradmanclimbs
May 2, 2006, 3:22 PM
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Why bother sitting down in the first place??? It is way easier to reach the higher holds by standing up :D :lol: (simo post)
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climbingaggie03
May 2, 2006, 3:25 PM
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Oh Dingus, If only I could rate posts today...
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musicman1586
May 2, 2006, 3:32 PM
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I agree with everybody else along the lines of "as long as you make it to the end" however if you do just skip all the holds and dyno you cheat yourself out of actually trying the problem, out of learning the moves and working the problem, I think it's much more meaningful if you work hard for something, and you also grow to be a better climber, and I do know climbers personally that all they are is long and strong arms and dynoing ability, but you put them on any very technical climb and their just devastated because they don't have any technique, and they give up because they can't strong arm or dyno their way through the route.
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ninja_climber
May 2, 2006, 3:37 PM
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I'm 6'0 with a postive ape Index and I have problems on really cramped problems like from a sit start to a pich only 1 foot above the sit start and then having to put my feet on the crimps I started on ... I usually just skip half that stuff and go from the sit start to the 3rd or 4th move depending on what route.
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fobnicat
May 2, 2006, 3:45 PM
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I see it as if you are just following someone elses holds then you are missing out on a critical part of the climbing experience.. Finding your way..
When you go out and do it the same way someone else has, it starts seeming a bit contrived... I hate contrived problems.. Spiderman Boulder at Boat Rock is a classic example of this... Many of the problems on this boulder are so contrived that it is impossible to do them without SPECIFIC beta.. Rediculous.. Bouldering is about getting to the top..
I agree that by doing every problem as a powerful dyno problem takes alot of technique out and creates bad climbers.. not every problem is capable of being sent with pure power as you said.. If they quit climbing because they get discouraged becasue they cant power through a problem.. Then so be it.. They arent true to climbing and maybe they will give me their pad... but the ones who enjoy the challenge of climbing will work on it to do it.. But if a problem is able to be sent without touching half the holds.. no biggy.. I guarantee everyone here has skipped holds at some point or other... I know I have...
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musicman1586
May 2, 2006, 8:30 PM
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In reply to: I see it as if you are just following someone elses holds then you are missing out on a critical part of the climbing experience.. Finding your way.. When you go out and do it the same way someone else has, it starts seeming a bit contrived... I hate contrived problems.. Spiderman Boulder at Boat Rock is a classic example of this... Many of the problems on this boulder are so contrived that it is impossible to do them without SPECIFIC beta.. Rediculous.. Bouldering is about getting to the top.. I agree that by doing every problem as a powerful dyno problem takes alot of technique out and creates bad climbers.. not every problem is capable of being sent with pure power as you said.. If they quit climbing because they get discouraged because they cant power through a problem.. Then so be it.. They arent true to climbing and maybe they will give me their pad... but the ones who enjoy the challenge of climbing will work on it to do it.. But if a problem is able to be sent without touching half the holds.. no biggy.. I guarantee everyone here has skipped holds at some point or other... I know I have...
Yeah, I do agree, I don't mean that you have to stick to every single sequence exactly the same, but some people out there don't even really want to try, that's all I mean. All of us skip holds, or use a hold that was originally intended for a left hand for our right, throw a heel hook where one has never been used before, etc. etc. and I don't mean to say that any of that is wrong, but you need to enjoy some of the meat of the problem. If the problem is intended to climb up an arete, climb up the arete, don't skip the entire climb or crux and go straight for the top out, that's what I mean.
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tradmanclimbs
May 2, 2006, 9:20 PM
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Climb bigger rocks and you won't have these problems 8^)
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organic
May 2, 2006, 10:00 PM
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Bouldering is pretty contrived if you are talking about grades but so is all of climbing. Is climbing up the backside of the boulder a different problem then the front? Yes, why? Because you are using different holds, same goes for skipping holds unless you are making the problem harder by skipping them. Have you ever been on a climb that you could traverse 3 meters in a direction and be on a completely different line?
Unless the problem was an eliminate to begin with I find it hard to find a route were dynoing to the top would actually be easier. Is it a V0 or V1 dyno and the problem in question is much harder?
If you are just climbing it doesn't matter, if you are asking if you sent the problem in the guidebook then, no. Did you send a new problem? Yes, was it as hard? Only you know.
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vanclimber
May 2, 2006, 10:51 PM
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In reply to: Have you ever been on a climb that you could traverse 3 meters in a direction and be on a completely different line?
Absolutely
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rockclimbergabor
May 3, 2006, 12:05 AM
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James, I can't believe you would start a fucking forum about this. Quoting the guidebook, "Start on thw low crimps. CROSS TO A RIGHT HAND CRIMP, then go past slopey holds to the top. " Yeah, you went left hand to the crimp and dynoed out right to a completely different jug. I did too. Your send is still a valid send of the problem, but do you really think this was V10? Fuck no. We found an easier way to get to the top of that boulder going RIGHT instead of LEFT, and this is a variation of the above problem. Seeing as how I flashed it and you did in in like 15 minutes, it is obviously not as hard as the left variation. Maybe the FA'ist didnt see our variation, but instead probably just wanted to make a hard climb so he SPECIFICALLY SPECIFIED going RIGHT HAND TO THE CRIMP. So, in conclusion, you sent the right variation of Stubby, and it is V7, douchebag.
PS> Ryan said you're not allowed to set.
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rocketsocks
May 3, 2006, 2:24 AM
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"Ethics" is about using (and not abusing) the outdoors / the rock.
"Style" is about how you get to the top.
Style is always a personal thing, though feel free be influenced from others, if you want.
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