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pharmboy
Jul 5, 2006, 2:56 PM
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So after a few years of top-roping and sport climbing we finally ventured into trad... yea! We had purchased a basic lead rack awhile ago and watched as it collected dust. I wanted to get some instruction prior to jumping on a trad lead and after purchasing a home our funds for this were pretty nonexistant.
However I finally got some time and money and took a class with IMCS in N. Conway. It was a great class on placing pro and building anchors. I'm very happy with the guide Steve and the general service if IME/IMCS overall and would definately recommend to anyone new that is interested in trad.
Two days after the class my wife and I decided to head to Cathedral to do some climbing and I led my first trad route, the 5.7 "Kiddie Crack". So on my first lead I place my first piece, a nut about 10' up and just as I get above the nut I peel off, it was kind of a weird move for me... anyway, I fell onto that lovely nut placement. I can't describe the feeling but I'm sure that all of you who can recall your first trad fall will know what I'm talking about... it was incredible. Not that I want to fall again, but I'm honestly glad I fell where/when I did.
So I know that one class and a couple of easy trad leads doesn't make me an expert... if anything it has made me aware of how much there really is to learn. I am just very excited about finally entering the realm of trad and wanted to share some of that excitement here.
Cheers!
Rich
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kobaz
Jul 5, 2006, 4:21 PM
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Congrats on your first lead, and congrats that your pro held. I would like to suggest that you get your feet wet on 5.3 to 5.5.
It's not just about knowing how to place pro, it's also about knowing which piece to put in so you don't hang in one spot pumping out while you go through 5 pieces of pro to figure what fits.
My first lead fall was on a 5.7 even though I've lead harder routes before. A hold broke off and I got some air time, so watch out for those brittle/loose holds too.
I would also recommend putting in a multi-directional piece first like a cam, or opposed nuts, depending on various variables your first piece can get ripped out from below during a fall if it's not set to take an upward pull.
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paulraphael
Jul 5, 2006, 5:47 PM
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Kobaz gave you some good advice.
I'd also suggest that you get recommendations on routes that are good for a beginning leader. There are a lot of factors besides the grade. Ideally you want routes where the falls are relatively safe (actually less common on easy routes), where there's lots of good pro, and where there are nice rest stances for placing the pro. You want to be able to take your time to fiddle with the pro, without worrying about the pump clock.
It would also be smart to go out with a more experienced climber than you, not with someone who's just starting out also. It's great to have someone who can evaluate your placements, give you feedback on fall potential, yell at you when you hook the rope behind your leg, etc. etc.
You really want to avoid situations like the one you described ... falling on the one piece of gear between you and the ground, especially when it's one of the only pieces you've ever placed on lead. Those are bad odds to be playing!
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glacierboy
Jul 5, 2006, 6:04 PM
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On my first day of leading I took a fall similar to yours, but the nut pulled and I landed on my ass from about twelve feet up. WAKE UP CALL. Probably the best thing that ever happened to me.
Needless to say, for beginning leaders I recommend routes where the crux doesn't come twelve feet off the ground.
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jt512
Jul 5, 2006, 6:40 PM
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In reply to: On my first day of leading I took a fall similar to yours, but the nut pulled and I landed on my ass from about twelve feet up. WAKE UP CALL. Probably the best thing that ever happened to me. Needless to say, for beginning leaders I recommend routes where the crux doesn't come twelve feet off the ground.
The 5.7 "crux?"
Jay
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jt512
Jul 5, 2006, 6:43 PM
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In reply to: However I finally got some time and money and took a class with IMCS in N. Conway. It was a great class on placing pro and building anchors. Two days after the class my wife and I decided to head to Cathedral to do some climbing and I led my first trad route, the 5.7 "Kiddie Crack". So on my first lead I place my first piece, a nut about 10' up... Rich
Did they forget to teach you that your first piece should be multi-directional?
Jay
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j_ung
Jul 5, 2006, 6:52 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: However I finally got some time and money and took a class with IMCS in N. Conway. It was a great class on placing pro and building anchors. Two days after the class my wife and I decided to head to Cathedral to do some climbing and I led my first trad route, the 5.7 "Kiddie Crack". So on my first lead I place my first piece, a nut about 10' up... Rich Did they forget to teach you that your first piece should be multi-directional? Jay
Though the name of the route and the nature of Cathedral climbing suggest that it may not be the case here, nuts can be multi directional.
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jt512
Jul 5, 2006, 7:03 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: However I finally got some time and money and took a class with IMCS in N. Conway. It was a great class on placing pro and building anchors. Two days after the class my wife and I decided to head to Cathedral to do some climbing and I led my first trad route, the 5.7 "Kiddie Crack". So on my first lead I place my first piece, a nut about 10' up... Rich Did they forget to teach you that your first piece should be multi-directional? Jay Though the name of the route and the nature of Cathedral climbing suggest that it may not be the case here, nuts can be multi directional.
In the context of a "first lead" thread, we should probably keep it simple, and restrict attention to standard multi-directional placements: cams and opposed nuts.
Jay
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blueeyedclimber
Jul 5, 2006, 7:12 PM
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Good for you, Rich (sort of). Be careful not to go too fast. I think you should have a lot of mileage on easier routes before you get on anything where a fall is possible. Also, a nut for your first piece is usually not a good idea, although I have done it if it is the best piece to protect a move. Just make sure your belayer is close to the wall, so as not to pull it out if you fall, which could lead to zippering the rest of your pieces.
TIff and i have been doing a lot more trad than sport lately. We had a great weekend at the Gunks. I finally got to lead Bonnie's Roof. What a spectacular route. If you and Amy want to ever go out together let me know.
I remember doing that 5.7 at NOrth End Wall (kiddie crack?). It felt like 5.7, except for the V0 boulder move at the start :lol: .
Just remember, falling in trad is ok as long as you have assessed what will happen if you do. Also remember, that it is always a serious thing.
Josh
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pharmboy
Jul 5, 2006, 7:25 PM
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I really hope this doesn't turn into a flame thing... and I take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for my own actions. The move that Josh was talking about is where I fell, pretty much near the bottom after the first piece.
To clarify... the major emphasis with the class I took was on anchor building, so the pro placement of that class was in regards to building anchors... not as to what to place for gear on lead.
As for my choice of placing a nut as the first piece, I didn't have a cam that would fit and the nut placement felt very solid. Reading the replies to this post I understand the suggestion on placing an opposing nut if a nut is what I place as a first piece. (Definately should take the "Intro to Lead" course too). I will also stay with easier leads and make sure to progress slowly.
Thanks for the replies... and yes Josh, Amy and I would love to go out anytime. Just let me know when and where.
Rich
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cracklover
Jul 5, 2006, 9:12 PM
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When you're starting out, you don't know what you don't know. Your ability to judge your gear is not there, even if you think it is. Chances of something unexpected happening are high. That's why you don't fall.
I don't mean to sound callous, because I'm glad you weren't hurt, but you fucked up, and if your piece had ripped, you would have known that for sure. Just the same, I'm glad it didn't.
Cheers!
GO
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epoch
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Jul 6, 2006, 1:18 AM
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In reply to: ..... a nut for your first piece is usually not a good idea, although I have done it if it is the best piece to protect a move.
:shock: :wtf:
Your statement makes no sense... ANY pro that can be placed and is BOMBER is good for ANY piece. I personally try to sink a nut, tricam, and when carrying them, hexes as my first piece. It can save you to have that cam for later. If you lack confidence in a nut placed as your first piece, then you may have confidence placing them at all???
Pharmboy, good job on your first lead. Take the skills learned in the Anchor class and apply them to leading. Remember that you want to orientate ANY gear in the direction of possible loading. Extend it if needed, to minimize possible walking or reorientation. And don't worry about placing a nut as your first piece. If it were an RP that may be another story. Alas, a Screamer or two is also a good investment. Great for that marginal piece. :wink:
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jt512
Jul 6, 2006, 2:04 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ..... a nut for your first piece is usually not a good idea, although I have done it if it is the best piece to protect a move. :shock: :wtf: Your statement makes no sense... ANY pro that can be placed and is BOMBER is good for ANY piece. I personally try to sink a nut, tricam, and when carrying them, hexes as my first piece. It can save you to have that cam for later. If you lack confidence in a nut placed as your first piece, then you may have confidence placing them at all??? Pharmboy, good job on your first lead. Take the skills learned in the Anchor class and apply them to leading. Remember that you want to orientate ANY gear in the direction of possible loading. Extend it if needed, to minimize possible walking or reorientation. And don't worry about placing a nut as your first piece. If it were an RP that may be another story. Alas, a Screamer or two is also a good investment. Great for that marginal piece. :wink:
You are clueless and dangerous.
Jay
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dirtineye
Jul 6, 2006, 2:55 AM
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I can't watch this thread. JT is on the money.
But I do wonder how much gear you (the OP) had placed (in ground school) before you decided to lead a 5.7, and I have to wonder how you could climb for several years and still have so much trouble on 5.7 that you fell off.
There are a number of posts about how to prepare yourself for leading BEFORE you are on the sharp end, I suggest you read them.
And I suggest you find someone who knows what the hell they are doing and learn from them.
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wonderwoman
Jul 6, 2006, 3:09 AM
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Holy crap, Rich! You sure picked a tough first lead, and I'm glad you didn't hit the ground! I've seen the best of them peel off the beginning of that climb. I got so frustrated from not even being able to make it off the ground last year that I just walked away from it.
I would suggest starting out at Echo Crag in Franconia, just past Cannon of Route 93. Really nicely protected single pitch stuff and a lot of fun. There are plenty of 5.5 - 6 's that you would enjoy.
Let me and Josh know when you and Amy want to come out. We'd be happy to climb again!
Tiff
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saxfiend
Jul 6, 2006, 3:11 AM
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In reply to: So I know that one class and a couple of easy trad leads doesn't make me an expert... if anything it has made me aware of how much there really is to learn. I am just very excited about finally entering the realm of trad and wanted to share some of that excitement here.
In reply to: In the context of a "first lead" thread, we should probably keep it simple, and restrict attention to standard multi-directional placements: cams and opposed nuts.
Do you know what this means and why it's important?
The first piece is not just subject to downward force if you fall on it; it's likely also subject to outward/lateral force from your belayer on the other end of the rope as they catch your fall. A nut that's bomber for downward force can be jerked right out of the rock by force from any other direction. (Lucky for you, your nut held -- this time!) A well-placed cam, on the other hand, is good for multi-directional forces. It either won't rotate at all, or will rotate in the direction of pull and still stay plugged in. Opposed nuts are good too, but I think you'd do better learning this technique from an experienced partner than on rc.com. (Gotta give credit to Dirtineye for drilling this stuff into me!)
You sound like someone not only eager to lead, but also eager to learn. I hope you keep that attitude!
JL
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puerto
Jul 6, 2006, 4:55 AM
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So you fell on the first piece you ever placed on lead, wow that must be some kind of record.. :shock:
I think the first nut I placed wiggled out of its placement and slid down the rope when I was four feet above it :oops: but that was probably cause I got the wrong brand of course :wink:
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cindylou
Jul 6, 2006, 5:01 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: ..... a nut for your first piece is usually not a good idea, although I have done it if it is the best piece to protect a move. :shock: :wtf: Your statement makes no sense... ANY pro that can be placed and is BOMBER is good for ANY piece. I personally try to sink a nut, tricam, and when carrying them, hexes as my first piece. It can save you to have that cam for later. If you lack confidence in a nut placed as your first piece, then you may have confidence placing them at all??? Pharmboy, good job on your first lead. Take the skills learned in the Anchor class and apply them to leading. Remember that you want to orientate ANY gear in the direction of possible loading. Extend it if needed, to minimize possible walking or reorientation. And don't worry about placing a nut as your first piece. If it were an RP that may be another story. Alas, a Screamer or two is also a good investment. Great for that marginal piece. :wink: You are clueless and dangerous. Jay
I'm a new climber and a very new leader (less than 12 leads) so I'm interested in the information posted on this thread.
Jay, I'm wondering about your "clueless and dangerous" comment. I just read the article in the April 2006 Climbing magazine by Mark Synnott, page 66, Tech Tips Trad - Rack Managment. He has a paragraph titled Nut first, cam later. He suggests placing a nut as the first peice of protection on climbs where one doesn't know what to expect.
I'm not questioning your knowledge, but I'd like to understand why you consider Epoch's advice as clueless and dangerous when it seems to be similar to the advice given in the Climbing magazine article. If I have misunderstood your post, I apologize.
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trevzilla
Jul 6, 2006, 7:03 AM
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Yeah, to me it seems like you should be able to place a nut first. The only thing one must THINK about is what the forces are. You need to be thinking when your on the sharp end, and as a first piece, you should analyze what direction the force is going to be, including where your belayer is standing. If you have a good place for a nut that can be pulled down and out, then by all means place it. There have been plenty of times that I've been happy to have my cam for a place later in the climb. . .
However, if in doubt, then hell yeah, place multi-directional pieces. I don't know this climb that the OP is talking about, but every climb has its own situations and as a leader you should know how to handle the situations. If you don't think you can, lead something easier.
Plus...Congrats on your first lead. A fall always wakes us up, and since your piece didn't rip out, you've probably learned much more from this experience then you'd learn in days of classes. Good job on that placement!
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notch
Jul 6, 2006, 10:59 AM
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Alright Rich! I did almost exactly the same thing when I started. My second lead ever was a 5.8, and I fell at about 80' because I was gripped and didn't yet trust my gear. After that I got some good advice and backed down to about .3, and also spent a lot of time placing gear on the ground. I'm just now hitting .7s again, and I'm a lot safer and smarter.
There's nothing wrong with placing a nut as your first piece, but I would strongly recommend making it multi directional. Even a cam should be supported with an oppositional piece if there's a danger of it walking, something I think some folks don't think about. Bill and I will show you this weekend if you like. WG, woohoo!
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pharmboy
Jul 6, 2006, 12:41 PM
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Thank you again to all that offered advice, suggestions and comments. I can see that there is some difference in opinion about whether placing a nut as the first piece is ok or not and I'd prefer to let that controversy continue in another thread. Leave it be that I'm NOT going to be leading anything above 5.easy and will make sure that all future trad leads are with an experienced leader until I am ready.
Not to defend myself or continue the debate, but the guide book lists the climb as a 75' 5.7 (20' short crack to ledge then thin crack to slab above). It was obvious that the 'crux' would be at the bottom. I stepped up into the crack and placed the first piece at about 10'. The next move out was where I fell. I want to reiterate that I understand the dangers of climbing and take responsibility for my own actions... a lack of knowledge does not mean a lack of responsibility.
PS... in this 75' climb I placed 4 cams, 7 nuts and 2 tricams... not sure what that equals for pieces per foot, I just kept telling my wife that I wanted to practice all my placements. :D
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blueeyedclimber
Jul 6, 2006, 12:43 PM
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In reply to: I'm a new climber and a very new leader (less than 12 leads) so I'm interested in the information posted on this thread. Jay, I'm wondering about your "clueless and dangerous" comment. I just read the article in the April 2006 Climbing magazine by Mark Synnott, page 66, Tech Tips Trad - Rack Managment. He has a paragraph titled Nut first, cam later. He suggests placing a nut as the first peice of protection on climbs where one doesn't know what to expect. I'm not questioning your knowledge, but I'd like to understand why you consider Epoch's advice as clueless and dangerous when it seems to be similar to the advice given in the Climbing magazine article. If I have misunderstood your post, I apologize.
I haven't seen that article, but there are a couple of points here that need addressing. First, placing a nut when possible is good practice, and saves a cam for later when you don't have a good stance and need to plug a piece quick. There is actually a pecking order between nut, cam and tricam, and different suituations call for different pieces, but that is for another thread.
The second issue, and more important one, is what to place for your FIRST piece. THe first piece not only protects the early moves of a climb, it also is responsible for keeping the rope in line so as not to zipper pieces above it, which is an extremely dangerous situation. Where a belayer stands is also important in this regard. If your first piece is not multidirectional, which a nut most of the time is not, an outward or upward pull could pull a nut out, causing a chain reaction from one piece to another. A nut CAN be a good first piece and I have done it on occasion, but you need to know when it is ok, and it is always good to oppose it if possible.
Josh
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wormly81
Jul 6, 2006, 2:36 PM
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Towards the end of last year I fell on a pink tricam which was my first piece about 12-15 feet off the ground. I climbed about 4 feet above it before my foot blew out. The way I look at it, this was the worst mistake I have made in my 100+ days on the rock.
I have taken about 10 lead falls onto gear. I don't regret taking any of these falls because they were all clean falls above 2 pieces of gear. Early on some old dirtbag told me to climb like the piece below you is going to blow; I think his words were "always have 2 pieces between you and disaster." I've climbed well above gear and been in places where a mistake would have meant certain injury; but I was aware of those decisions to keep climbing and play that game.
As a begining trad leader you should be focused on climbing with good gear, building simple yet effective anchors, practicing good rope management, and working on your belay changeovers. During these early climbs there is so much you need to learn and so many new experiences that require vigilience and your full attention. You need to prove to yourself that you can follow "the leader does not fall" school of thought. This means dont fall over 2 pieces of gear let alone 1. Over time you will become knowledgeable enough to know when its safe to fall but until then I wouldnt risk it. I believe that knowing your "do not fall" limits is critical in both your saftey and your timely progression as a leader.
I'm not preaching; I believe that most of us climb for the pleasure of spending a day making our own decisions and not following the advice of others. There is something truely free and uplifting about being responsible for your own actions in a game with such harsh penalties. Then again, these ideas have helped keep me safe through the opening moves in a game you start without understanding.
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cracklover
Jul 6, 2006, 3:43 PM
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Wormly - I think that was one of the best posts I've read in a long time.
Very well said.
I'd just like to reinforce one point you made - an important part of trad climbing is knowing when you're in a "must not fall" situation, and then making the right choice, and being able to follow through with it.
GO
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dirtineye
Jul 6, 2006, 4:29 PM
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Lok, the defining characteristic of that first piece is that it NOT pull, lift, fall out, or fail in any other way, period.
The first piece is also your anti zipper protection, and if you don't know what that means, find out now.
Maybe you need to use opposition, maybe you don't but when in doubt, always go with mroe than you need.
BTW, two pieces is sometimes not enough between you and disaster.
Never pass up a bomber placement, cause you might not get another.
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cjsimpso
Jul 6, 2006, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: There is actually a pecking order between nut, cam and tricam, and different suituations call for different pieces, but that is for another thread.
That other thread... http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/115838
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jt512
Jul 6, 2006, 6:42 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: ..... a nut for your first piece is usually not a good idea, although I have done it if it is the best piece to protect a move. :shock: :wtf: Your statement makes no sense... ANY pro that can be placed and is BOMBER is good for ANY piece. I personally try to sink a nut, tricam, and when carrying them, hexes as my first piece. It can save you to have that cam for later. If you lack confidence in a nut placed as your first piece, then you may have confidence placing them at all??? Pharmboy, good job on your first lead. Take the skills learned in the Anchor class and apply them to leading. Remember that you want to orientate ANY gear in the direction of possible loading. Extend it if needed, to minimize possible walking or reorientation. And don't worry about placing a nut as your first piece. If it were an RP that may be another story. Alas, a Screamer or two is also a good investment. Great for that marginal piece. :wink: You are clueless and dangerous. Jay, I'm wondering about your "clueless and dangerous" comment.
He is clueless and dangerous for two reasons. The first is that he is leading trad, but doesn't know that the first piece should be multi-directional whenever possible. The reasons for this have been explained well by saxfiend and blueeyedclimber; they are also explained in standard beginning climbing texts, such as How to Climb by John Long. Some climbers believe that if the belayer is positioned close enough to the wall that the bottom piece will not be subjected to upward or outward forces in a fall onto a higher piece, but they'll never convince me of it. I have seen first-piece cams rotate upward in response to a fall when the belayer was tightly anchored to the wall.
The other reason that he is clueless and dangerous is that he believes, and is willing to suggest to another beginner, that the skills learned in an anchor-building class can be tranferred to placing protectoin on lead. They can't; they are immensely different skills, the fundamentals of which are learned sequentially over several days in well-designed climbing courses.
There are several good ways to learn to lead trad, but trial and error isn't one of them.
Jay
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losbill
Jul 6, 2006, 8:34 PM
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Rich, congratulations on your first lead. Thanks for sharing your thrill of "entering the realm of trad"! Prompted my to enjoy thinking about the thrill and excitement of my first lead.
Also congratulations on not getting banged up. I was not as fortunate on my first fall.
Regarding "opinions", there are opinions in trad but there are also some flat out truths and basic principles. You are smart guy and will soon be able to distinquish which is which for yourself. In the meantime you are getting some excellent advice from some folks; Paulraphael, Dirt, Worm and Josh in particular.
You will learn a lot on Sunday. See you then.
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jt512
Jul 7, 2006, 5:31 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ......the skills learned in an anchor-building class can be tranferred to placing protectoin on lead. They can't; they are immensely different skills, the fundamentals of which are learned sequentially over several days in well-designed climbing courses. Just curious as to how you believe that placing gear for an anchor is completely different from placing gear while leading?
That question is just too fucking stupid for me to waste time answering.
In reply to: A well slotted nut will hold in directions greater than 1 degree in a fall.
A well-slotted nut will not be reliable against an upward pull. Nuts are not multi-directional pieces.
Jay
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epoch
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Jul 7, 2006, 5:52 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: ......the skills learned in an anchor-building class can be tranferred to placing protectoin on lead. They can't; they are immensely different skills, the fundamentals of which are learned sequentially over several days in well-designed climbing courses. Just curious as to how you believe that placing gear for an anchor is completely different from placing gear while leading? That question is just too f---ing stupid for me to waste time answering. In reply to: A well slotted nut will hold in directions greater than 1 degree in a fall. A well-slotted nut will not be reliable against an upward pull. Nuts are not multi-directional pieces. Jay
(I've had a cam or two blow out because they rotated, and they were placed very securly for a downward pull. It was when I fell on a roof that they rotated and came out. I was held by my gear immediately below me.)
It all depends.
Pins and bolts (maybe pins) are just about it, unless you can state otherwise.
Get off your eletist throne..... And I'm gonna die :roll: . To each thier own. Refer to the comment that you should place gear in the anticipated direction of pull. If you need two, then place two. I'll wait until I am there to make a blind ignorant statement such as yours. But placing a nut (as to OP stated) as your first piece is arguably OK to do.
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reg
Jul 7, 2006, 7:07 PM
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In reply to: The second issue, and more important one, is what to place for your FIRST piece. THe first piece not only protects the early moves of a climb, it also is responsible for keeping the rope in line so as not to zipper pieces above it, which is an extremely dangerous situation. Where a belayer stands is also important in this regard. If your first piece is not multidirectional, which a nut most of the time is not, an outward or upward pull could pull a nut out, causing a chain reaction from one piece to another. A nut CAN be a good first piece and I have done it on occasion, but you need to know when it is ok, and it is always good to oppose it if possible. Josh
PHARMBOY read above - this IS very important and IMHO the basses for this discussion!
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epoch
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Jul 7, 2006, 7:27 PM
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Oh...
While it is on my mind... There are many, many, many climbs where it is impossible to place a piece in opposition as your first piece, Such as pocketed routes, or small vertical cracks.
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couchwarrior
Jul 7, 2006, 7:27 PM
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This thread is why I love climbing - the anarchy! Half the posters are saying "NEVER place a nut first" and the rest are saying "It's FINE to place a nut first!" We can't agree on anything.
Corn on the cob is good, isn't it?
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scrapedape
Jul 7, 2006, 7:36 PM
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In reply to: This thread is why I love climbing - the anarchy! Half the posters are saying "NEVER place a nut first" and the rest are saying "It's FINE to place a nut first!" We can't agree on anything. Corn on the cob is good, isn't it?
STFU n00b!
Creamed corn is the only way.
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epoch
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Jul 7, 2006, 7:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: This thread is why I love climbing - the anarchy! Half the posters are saying "NEVER place a nut first" and the rest are saying "It's FINE to place a nut first!" We can't agree on anything. Corn on the cob is good, isn't it? STFU n00b! Creamed corn is the only way.
Corn is useless, don't bother...
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pharmboy
Jul 7, 2006, 8:01 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: This thread is why I love climbing - the anarchy! Half the posters are saying "NEVER place a nut first" and the rest are saying "It's FINE to place a nut first!" We can't agree on anything. Corn on the cob is good, isn't it? STFU n00b! Creamed corn is the only way. Corn is useless, don't bother...
I was told that those BIG time Russian climbers use corn cobs as chock stones??? So I shouldn't bother saving those cobs from our family gatherings? This trad stuff is soooo confusing, I'm going back to needle point. Anyone interested in a hand-sewn chalk bag? :lol:
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dirtineye
Jul 7, 2006, 8:36 PM
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In reply to: Oh... While it is on my mind... There are many, many, many climbs where it is impossible to place a piece in opposition as your first piece, Such as pocketed routes, or small vertical cracks.
So, you really think it is impossible to place two pieces in opposition in a small vertical crack?
Or from one pocket to another?
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jt512
Jul 7, 2006, 8:59 PM
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In reply to: Cams aren't multidirectional either...
You're really an idiot.
Jay
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jt512
Jul 7, 2006, 9:09 PM
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In reply to: This thread is why I love climbing - the anarchy! Half the posters are saying "NEVER place a nut first" and the rest are saying "It's FINE to place a nut first!" We can't agree on anything.
This is what's wrong with the beginner's forum. The beginners have no way to judge who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't.
Jay
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cracklover
Jul 7, 2006, 9:31 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: This thread is why I love climbing - the anarchy! Half the posters are saying "NEVER place a nut first" and the rest are saying "It's FINE to place a nut first!" We can't agree on anything. This is what's wrong with the beginner's forum. The beginners have no way to judge who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't. Jay
With all due respect, Jay, I disagree. Anyone with a good head on their shoulders can tell the difference.
In reply to: I'm a new climber and a very new leader (less than 12 leads) so I'm interested in the information posted on this thread. Jay, I'm wondering about your "clueless and dangerous" comment. I just read the article in the April 2006 Climbing magazine by Mark Synnott, page 66, Tech Tips Trad - Rack Managment. He has a paragraph titled Nut first, cam later. He suggests placing a nut as the first peice of protection on climbs where one doesn't know what to expect.
Cindy - I'm quite curious - can you give a synopsis of Synott's argument? I'm quite curious. I suspect there's something more than meets the eye, here.
As a general rule, absolutely - getting a first or second piece that can handle an upward/outward pull is important. But general rules must get broken when other considerations are more important in certain specific situations. I suspect that's what's going on in Mr. Synott's article.
GO
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dirtineye
Jul 7, 2006, 9:50 PM
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LOL, rack management!!
The best rack management is to drag as much gear as you can up to the crux, then hang the stuff you won't be needing for the rest of the pitch for the second.
THAT is good rack management, and it helps the second get a better appreciation of how easy they have it most of the time.
There, you just heard one of the dirty secrets of trad climbing.
THey'll probably come take away my trad decoder ring for this.
REMEMBER, too much is ALWAYS better than not enough.
This applies to gear placement very well.
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losbill
Jul 7, 2006, 11:09 PM
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Notch and Pharmboy on second thought and Dirt's good advice I'm bringing my rack on Sunday as well. Get ready to haul about 80 pounds of stuff up to the ridge!!!! Think Sherpas!
Notch better bring the big boy pack for the approach!!!
And Pharmboy you show up with any damn corn cobs you're going to find yourself soloing the bastard!!!!
I have been way too easy on my seconds way too long!!! I feel like a new man. Thanks Dirt!!!!
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jt512
Jul 7, 2006, 11:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: This thread is why I love climbing - the anarchy! Half the posters are saying "NEVER place a nut first" and the rest are saying "It's FINE to place a nut first!" We can't agree on anything. This is what's wrong with the beginner's forum. The beginners have no way to judge who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't. Jay With all due respect, Jay, I disagree. Anyone with a good head on their shoulders can tell the difference.
Should that comment upset couchwarrior?
Jay
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ambler
Jul 8, 2006, 1:37 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Jay, I'm wondering about your "clueless and dangerous" comment. I just read the article in the April 2006 Climbing magazine by Mark Synnott, page 66, Tech Tips Trad - Rack Managment. He has a paragraph titled Nut first, cam later. He suggests placing a nut as the first peice of protection on climbs where one doesn't know what to expect. Cindy - I'm quite curious - can you give a synopsis of Synott's argument? I'm quite curious. I suspect there's something more than meets the eye, here. As a general rule, absolutely - getting a first or second piece that can handle an upward/outward pull is important. But general rules must get broken when other considerations are more important in certain specific situations. I suspect that's what's going on in Mr. Synott's article.
This advice seems less relevant for Kiddie Crack or other familiar, short climbs. Adventure climbing, on the other hand, more often brings trade-offs between different kinds of safety.
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brutusofwyde
Jul 8, 2006, 1:53 AM
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Let me see if I can contribute in any meaningful way to this thread, recapping some points and adding others.
First --
Your first placement when starting a lead off the deck, all other things being equal, should be a multi-directional placement, able to resist loading in all directions in which it might reasonably be loaded.
Come to think of it, additionally, whenever the rope changes direction significantly, such as when starting and ending a traverse on lead, or when placing multiple pieces in line along a horizontal traverse where the pieces must protect both the leader and the follower (direction of loading can change up to 90 degrees depending on whether the leader or second falls) these loading directions must be taken into account and your placements constructed accordingly.
Second:
If that first piece on an upward lead is solidly multi-directional, able to resist outward and upward forces as well as downward, that piece can serve to protect subsequent pieces from outward and upward loading (which results in back-zippering.) If so protected, the subsequent pieces can often then be placed to resist only downward loading from the leader fall, given no unusual changes in rope direction thereafter.
Third:
No particular clean climbing piece is inherently multi-directional. Even well-placed pitons and bolts have stronger and weaker axes, ranging from shear to pullout. Cams have the ability to sometimes rotate and hold, however trusting your life to this generalization rather than to construct each placement based on the rock, the equipment available to you, and the equipment you may need later in the pitch, is foolhardy. Keyhole nut placements, though rare in many kinds of rock, can be very resistant to multi-directional loading. Every placement is unique. That said, when possible a properly constructed placement incorporating opposition is an extremely valuable and powerful tool in resisting multi-directional loading. Sometimes this kind of placement is the only thing that will work safely, be it constructed of cams, hexes, nuts or a combination.
Fourth:
Given equally spaced pieces and all other factors being equal, protection placed at the start of a pitch will see far higher forces if they catch a fall than pieces placed later in a pitch.
Fifth:
When the opportunity presents itself, it is a good idea to double up pieces before obvious cruxes, before obvious runouts, where the pro is marginal, and in other situations where either the likelyhood of a fall is high or where the consequences of falling are more serious. It may also make sense to double up on pro after long runouts, where the failure of a single piece may result in extreme consequences. If concerned about "rationing" pieces, take into account that 1) if you fall and die, you won't need the rest of the rack anyways; 2) if you're looking at a runout ahead, the runout itself will ration your pieces; and 3) if you've just finished a runout, you have some extras that you would have otherwise placed. That said, always maintain an awareness of what is on your rack, what you may need for the rest of the pitch (including the belay anchors) and look for the opportunity to place pieces accordingly.
Sixth:
Always be aware of the potential consequences of a fall. Many many times in Trad climbing, whether just stepping off of a spacious ledge onto a crux, seconding a traverse with the protection a long ways away, finding yourself in difficulty with poor to non-existant protection, or running it out on easy ground, you are, in effect, soloing. Learn to recognize these situations and climb accordingly.
Seventh:
Trad is a different beast than sport. The ability to place effective protection, sometimes when in strenuous, scary, or otherwise stressful situations, is a completely different skill than the ability to climb hard technical moves, sometimes when in strenuous, scary, or otherwise stressful situations. Competent, safe traditional climbing requires a high degree of skill in both of these areas. Never challenge yourself in both areas at once. And be aware that poor routefinding can quickly put you over your head in both.
Eighth:
Routefinding is more than following dotted lines in a guidebook. It is a multifaceted skill ranging from being able to "read" the rock in terms of protection, rest stances, hard moves, probable ratings, and downclimbing opportunities; to being able to envision the entire route including the descent, from a distance, and translate that into competent decisions when presented with the limited, extremely foreshortened view when actually climbing the route.
Ninth:
Trad falls, especially when learning the ropes and climbing easier routes, are particularly dangerous, due to the nature of the terrain typically found on easier routes. Even good protection is no guarantee of injury-free falls with ledges and footholds to flip you upside-down or sprain or break an ankle on low-angle terrain. (Nearly every year, someone breaks an ankle on Nutcracker in Yosemite.) Traversing, pendulum falls for both the leader and the second are more common on trad terrain, develop as much momentum as vertical falls, and expose vital organs to impact. Add to all of this, inexperience at placing gear, and the rule "the leader must not fall" is a good policy to live by, particularly in the first year or two.
hth,
Brutus of Wyde
Old Climbers' Home
Oakland, California
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cindylou
Jul 8, 2006, 2:09 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Jay, I'm wondering about your "clueless and dangerous" comment. I just read the article in the April 2006 Climbing magazine by Mark Synnott, page 66, Tech Tips Trad - Rack Managment. He has a paragraph titled Nut first, cam later. He suggests placing a nut as the first peice of protection on climbs where one doesn't know what to expect. Cindy - I'm quite curious - can you give a synopsis of Synott's argument? I'm quite curious. I suspect there's something more than meets the eye, here. As a general rule, absolutely - getting a first or second piece that can handle an upward/outward pull is important. But general rules must get broken when other considerations are more important in certain specific situations. I suspect that's what's going on in Mr. Synott's article. Synnott's "Nut first, cam later" advice refers to pitches where you can see the first part of the lead but don't know what to expect higher up. By using nuts early, wherever possible, we might save cams for later in case there is a crack that will not take nuts or any of the remaining cams. This advice seems less relevant for Kiddie Crack or other familiar, short climbs. Adventure climbing, on the other hand, more often brings trade-offs between different kinds of safety.
Thanks Ambler - That's the gist of the paragraph. It doesn't sound like Kiddie Crack fits the type of climb he was referring to.
Edited to add: Thanks for showing me that anchor Gabe. I've been spreading the anchor love here in CO.
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c4c
Jul 8, 2006, 2:34 AM
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In reply to: Corn on the cob is good, isn't it?
Corn is about the most worthless food out there. Its hard to digest and has very little nutritional benefits. Besides it gets stuck in my teeth :D
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blueeyedclimber
Jul 8, 2006, 3:04 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Let me see if I can contribute in any meaningful way to this thread, recapping some points and adding others. OMFG! Thank you... I wish I could rate today. :x
Yes, will someone please give Mr. Wyde a trophy. I think he needs to know we appreciate him. Good stuff, Brutus!
Josh
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cracklover
Jul 8, 2006, 3:43 AM
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In reply to: Synnott's "Nut first, cam later" advice refers to pitches where you can see the first part of the lead but don't know what to expect higher up. By using nuts early, wherever possible, we might save cams for later in case there is a crack that will not take nuts or any of the remaining cams.
Okay, if you can see enough of the beginning of the route to know that you won't fall on it. Otherwise, I still don't like the opinion much. Of course, Brutus is right on - it's not really cam versus nut, it's single-directional versus multi-directional. But, shorthand, sometimes that means nut versus cam.
In reply to: This advice seems less relevant for Kiddie Crack or other familiar, short climbs. Adventure climbing, on the other hand, more often brings trade-offs between different kinds of safety.
Especially if you're bringing a trimmed down alpine rack - which is what I was wondering about. I can imagine he might bring lots of nuts, but not many, relatively heavy, cams. In which case there's a big cost to placing one when you might not have anything else that fits that placement later on.
GO
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cindylou
Jul 8, 2006, 3:49 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Let me see if I can contribute in any meaningful way to this thread, recapping some points and adding others. OMFG! Thank you... I wish I could rate today. :x Yes, will someone please give Mr. Wyde a trophy. I think he needs to know we appreciate him. Good stuff, Brutus! Josh
Done! Yes, thanks Brutus.
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notch
Jul 8, 2006, 11:28 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Let me see if I can contribute in any meaningful way to this thread, recapping some points and adding others. OMFG! Thank you... I wish I could rate today. :x |
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tradrenn
Jul 12, 2006, 2:25 AM
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Pharmboy: Thanks for sharing your story with us.
I gave you a trophy for having balls to post it.
Becareful on those 5.7s also 5.6 can be tricky too, keep that in mind.
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cjsimpso
Jul 19, 2006, 6:19 AM
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Really solid post Brutus, I'll be back when I've got some trophy love to pass around.
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bako_prc
Jul 23, 2006, 4:13 PM
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oh how i envy you! ive been climbing for almost 3 years, all self tought.i just recently started trad. i have about 10 leads under me 5.4 to 5.8, and ive never taken a fall. i want to fall so bad. i just gotta know how it feels
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ncrockclimber
Aug 27, 2007, 6:48 PM
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wanderlustmd
Aug 28, 2007, 1:44 PM
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Very nice post Brutus, thanks for summing everything up.
Probably redundant and obvious, but the best advice I have is to really inspect each placement - you're literally betting your life on it. Many times a placement can appear solid at a glance but upon further inspection can be found suspect in one way or another. "Bomber" placements have ripped.
Remeber to inspect the rock as well - a nice, tight, textbook cam placement is pretty worthless if it's placed in rock that will fail under the slightest stress.
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evanwish
Sep 15, 2007, 8:28 PM
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LAST LEAD, LAST FALL (for a while)
i remember my first fall....  good times!
just don't get too comfortable!!!!
that's what happened to me and i fell 60ft from 300 feet up on a trad climb. I broke my leg/ankle/foot. out for the year 
stay safe.
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