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paradyce
Aug 14, 2006, 11:59 PM
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This is probably a series of stupid newbe questions, but here goes....I watch climbers navigate inverted walls, but I drop after two holds. What level of strength does this require? What specific exercise is best? I would think that lat-pull-downs would be the best training. Do you have to be able to pull down your entire body weight to be successful on inverted walls?
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 15, 2006, 1:12 AM
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First of all, don't call them inverted walls. It's a roof. Second, the only training in the beginning of your climbing career you will need is climbing. Any other additional training will make minimal, if any, gains in your climbing performance. The only benefit to outside training would be weight loss.
But for now, climb...climb...and climb some more. It takes a while to develop the hand and finger strength, and muscular endurance to climb a roof. But, it is more than that. It takes good technique, proper breathing, and the ability to find good rest spots. To take pressure of your arms on a roof, you generally need to do something strenuous with your legs (i.e. heel hooks, toe hooks, stemming, drop-knees, etc.).
Climbing is generally the only thing that will improve your climbing performance until you get to an advanced level.
Hope this helps.
Josh
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sonknee
Aug 15, 2006, 1:18 AM
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Mainly you have to climb, climb, and climb more. Pull up won't help much. You are better off doing laps and a lot of traversing. Mainly what you are training to do is fight the pump.
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alexmac
Aug 15, 2006, 3:14 AM
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I completely agree, climb climb climb, your objective to climb anything below a five nine and not be out of breath or pumped.
Laps Laps Laps. bring lots of five's
Alex
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overlord
Aug 15, 2006, 7:00 AM
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if you can do 5-10 pullups, thats good enough for a beginner. its acutally better to be a bit weaker, because that will force you to develop proper technique (and too much strength will hinder it).
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devkrev
Aug 15, 2006, 12:26 PM
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I completely agree with the "climbing helps your climbing" statements, and I doubt any sort of extra strength training will do anything, but...
Wouldn't some cardio help with the endurance side of things a bit, though?
dev
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mturner
Aug 15, 2006, 2:47 PM
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In reply to: I completely agree with the "climbing helps your climbing" statements, and I doubt any sort of extra strength training will do anything, but... Wouldn't some cardio help with the endurance side of things a bit, though? dev
My guess is, at this level his arms will tire out before his lungs
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slowhand
Aug 15, 2006, 6:31 PM
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Cardio helps everything
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mturner
Aug 15, 2006, 7:53 PM
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In reply to: Cardio helps everything
Everything? Will it help me with my footwork?!
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redlegrangerone
Aug 15, 2006, 7:56 PM
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Actually, it might. Bad footwork gets a lot worse when you are tired.
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redlegrangerone
Aug 15, 2006, 7:56 PM
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Actually, it might. Bad footwork gets a lot worse when you are tired.
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 15, 2006, 9:31 PM
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In reply to: Wouldn't some cardio help with the endurance side of things a bit, though? dev
Different type of endurance. Cardio helps your cardiovascular endurance, which is how much oxygen your lungs can take in and your heart can distribute in a given amount of time. THe more oxygen, the better the endurance. In climbing, we deal with muscular endurance. The longer your muscles can work without succumbing to the lactic acid "pump", the better your endurance.
Don't get me wrong, you should be doing some cardio. It will make you a healthier and happier person, but will have no impact on your climbing (except if weight is an issue).
Josh
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fluxus
Aug 15, 2006, 9:48 PM
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In reply to: I would think that lat-pull-downs would be the best training. Do you have to be able to pull down your entire body weight to be successful on inverted walls?
Don't get sucked into the "it must be the upper body" mindset. Sure you need to improve your upper body fitness but the thing that makes it possible to climb steeper climbs is the way the climber uses their entire body, the ability to properly create, hold, and release tension in the entire body, and further the ability to deal with the unique balance challenges found on steep routes and roofs. This requires increased fitness throughtout the body. Steeper climbs rely a lot on back extension, hip extension, the Abs to stablize the pelvis, the flexors and extenders of the knee, the hip abductors etc.
There really is no specific non-climbing exercise you can do to improve at this since the motor coordination is so complex and context specific. Just getting stronger will not teach you the movement necessary to get on steeper moves.
Find routes that are just past vertical that you can do multiple times in a climbing session. Do laps on these routes for a few weeks, learing the movement and the methods of moving that work. Then find slightly steeper easy routes and do laps on those for a few weeks. Keep doing laps and getting on routes that are very easy but a little steeper. Also learn how to do the following:
1- turn from side to side for each move
2- inside / outside / backstep flag
3- drop knee
4- move dynamically, that is with various degrees of momentum
Do these things and you are on your way. There is a good chance that you won't be able to do all this on your own so go take a few private lessons with an instructor.
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blitzkrieg_climber13
Aug 15, 2006, 10:33 PM
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oh my. to climb inverted walls you must be at strength level 14 with stamina low and pull high. you must practice a lot to achieve some inverted walls.
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udaho
Aug 15, 2006, 10:46 PM
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Man, I'm really impressed with the information everyone is sharing - I'll pin some of it up on my wall :wink: . If you're going to the gym anyway, there is some stuff that may be worth focusing on. Obviously, like has been stated, make sure you have strong quads, hams, gluts, and adductors (inner thigh). Upper body, people often forget about rhomboids (action pulls the shoulder blades together), and teres minor (internal rotator of the arm), and the traps - not just the upper, but middle and lower as well (the full muscle is shaped like a diamond covering most of the back. Lats are important, but not the end-all, especially whilst suspending yourself from the ceiling. I'd also like to mention proprioception, which is super important for balance - practice this by standing on one leg with your eyes closed. Just time yourself - if it's under a minute and you tip over, work on it. It's also really helpful for rehab-ing ankles and lower leg injuries. Mostly, as has been mentioned, climb - that's what all this is about.
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tarasteen
Aug 16, 2006, 12:33 AM
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When I started climbing I thought there was no way I would ever be good at it because I'm pretty weak, but I liked it enough that I kept going. Soon enough I learned that if I twisted my body this way or stepped and reached that way it just felt normal and fluid to climb. That's when I finally realized that technique is just as important as strength (at least until you get to 5.13s and the only thing to hold onto is the size of a button; yeah I'm not there yet).
Go climb.
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rockscaler2
Aug 16, 2006, 1:04 AM
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JUST CLIMB DUDE!!! When I used to climb at the Wall Street Rock Gym in NJ where Brian Kim AKA GearBoy from Team USA learned/worked, his partner Joe said he couldn't do a pull-up. Alot of people say it's all upper body lol they obviously have never climbed before, just climb dude, laps like all the previous posts said!!! :lol: :D Try a book called "Training for Climbing" if you're really into it. Have fun!!
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rockscaler2
Aug 16, 2006, 1:07 AM
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JUST CLIMB DUDE!!! When I used to climb at the Wall Street Rock Gym in NJ where Brian Kim AKA GearBoy from Team USA learned/worked, his partner Joe said he couldn't do a pull-up. Alot of people say it's all upper body lol they obviously have never climbed before, just climb dude, laps like all the previous posts said!!! :lol: :D Try a book called "Training for Climbing" if you're really into it. Have fun!!
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rockscaler2
Aug 16, 2006, 1:08 AM
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JUST CLIMB DUDE!!! When I used to climb at the Wall Street Rock Gym in NJ where Brian Kim AKA GearBoy from Team USA learned/worked, his partner Joe said he couldn't do a pull-up. Alot of people say it's all upper body lol they obviously have never climbed before, just climb dude, laps like all the previous posts said!!! :lol: :D Try a book called "Training for Climbing" if you're really into it. Have fun!!
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rockscaler2
Aug 16, 2006, 1:09 AM
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JUST CLIMB DUDE!!! When I used to climb at the Wall Street Rock Gym in NJ where Brian Kim AKA GearBoy from Team USA learned/worked, his partner Joe said he couldn't do a pull-up. Alot of people say it's all upper body lol they obviously have never climbed before, just climb dude, laps like all the previous posts said!!! :lol: :D Try a book called "Training for Climbing" if you're really into it. Have fun!!
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rockscaler2
Aug 16, 2006, 1:10 AM
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JUST CLIMB DUDE!!! When I used to climb at the Wall Street Rock Gym in NJ where Brian Kim AKA GearBoy from Team USA learned/worked, his partner Joe said he couldn't do a pull-up. Alot of people say it's all upper body lol they obviously have never climbed before, just climb dude, laps like all the previous posts said!!! :lol: :D Try a book called "Training for Climbing" if you're really into it. Have fun!!
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fluxus
Aug 16, 2006, 1:30 AM
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In reply to: Try a book called "Training for Climbing" if you're really into it. Have fun!!
There is another book out there that addresses the issues aruond steep climbing in specific detail. ;-)
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lena_chita
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Aug 16, 2006, 2:03 PM
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In reply to: if you can do 5-10 pullups, thats good enough for a beginner. its acutally better to be a bit weaker, because that will force you to develop proper technique (and too much strength will hinder it).
I don't think the pull-ups are all that essential for a beginner. I couldn't do ANY pull-ups at all when I first started climbing. Not a single one. But I could climb easy roofs and overhangs anyway. After 2 years of climbing I can do maybe 3-4 pull-ups AT MOST-- and not b/c I've been practicing pull-ups, rather I can do them now b/c of all the climbing... And even now still for me at the level that I'm climbng (5.10-5.11) getting stronger is not going to improve things much-- getting better technique helps more. I am sure more strength won't hurt, but I personally like climbing way more than I like working out with wieghts (borrring!). There were so many occasions when I couldn't do some move and thought "oh, If only I were stronger, I could pull it off" or "if only I were 2 inches taller, I could..." And in each and every case I was able to work through that spot with help and advice from people who are way better at it than I am... And all of a sudden it turned out that no, that move didn't require me to do some one-handed pull-up, it just required better foot placement and twisting a certain way...
I think the key is to do a variety of climbing to develop technique. Watch good climbers-- notice how they use their feet, how they turn the hips to the wall, flag, backstep, etc. Try to repeat the moves. Ask someone to watch you on a route where you are having problem and ask for advice on how to make a specific move.
Bouldering at the gym really helped me with strength and getting comfortable with overhanging walls-- and working on technique. I never really did any sort of formal power/endurance training, but I do NOW try to have a day dedicated to just bouldering (power) and day when I do laps on easier stuff -- and vary things-- e.i. do a specific number of laps one time, or decide to stay on the wall traversing back and forth for 30 min, etc. It helps if you have a "buddy" who will keep you at it-- when you feel like 'O.K. it's been 20 min already, I'm bored stiff with this traversing, I want to come down now'.
And I'm always up for fun stuff, like add-on games (person one does 2 moves and comes down, person repeats the moves and adds 2 more, next person repeats the 4 moves and adds 2 more, etc-- can be done in a group of 2+ people), or "twister" (one person calls out the color of the hold, and you have to shift to that hold in one move), or blindfolded climbing, or climbing slabs with hand-smearing only, there are so many things...
Hey, you have to do stuff to make gym climbing interesting, and I can't climb outside during the week.
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paradyce
Aug 16, 2006, 10:57 PM
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Absolutely great information, thanks to all. Must have some exercise physiology people out there! --Paradyce
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pappy
Aug 17, 2006, 11:09 AM
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one thing to do is never let go of your grip master haha. bring that beast every where.
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forthesunrise
Aug 17, 2006, 1:59 PM
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I am new myself and I thought strength training would help...so I worked out this summer. Being a little stronger is nice but nothing helped me more than watching other people my height- paying specific attention to how they move. After that, the only solution is to climb it and gain experience on the wall.
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midlifeclimber
Aug 19, 2006, 3:16 AM
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". . . nothing helped me more than watching other people my height- paying specific attention to how they move. "
I've been looking for a sport to move me away from competitive power lifting. Bulk, age and a family history of high blood pressure force me to look elsewhere. The past two months at the local climbing gym have convinced me that climbing is my new hobby. What I have discovered is the younger people on the wall are surprised, as am I, that a 6'1" 250 lb weight lifter can actually make it up, even on the inverts, a 5.8 route. Strength helps.
However, nothing matches the graceful ease of the younger sinewy climbers. I admire their poise and balance. So, I too watch and learn. Asking questions on balance and moves which distribute weight. I am also altering my weight training and diet to to accommodate climbing. And I climb, climb, climb; guess we'll see. . . :wink:
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ja1484
Aug 19, 2006, 3:35 AM
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In reply to: . its acutally better to be a bit weaker, because that will force you to develop proper technique (and too much strength will hinder it).
This man speaks the truth. I was into strength training and exercise for a good 6 years before I got into climbing. As a result, technique took longer to develop because I could muscle past sections which would have required a precise sequence otherwise.
As for training up your strength, I could write a book for you. I recieved by BS in Exercise Science and strength training is one of my passion areas. But I'm too lazy to write out everything you need. I'll simply tell you this: There will be a lot of misinformation all over the place. Your best bet is to buy a used Exercise Physiology textbook off Amazon or Ebay and get educated.
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blazesod
Aug 19, 2006, 6:38 AM
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In reply to: This is probably a series of stupid newbe questions, but here goes....I watch climbers navigate inverted walls, but I drop after two holds. What level of strength does this require? What specific exercise is best? I would think that lat-pull-downs would be the best training. Do you have to be able to pull down your entire body weight to be successful on inverted walls?
There isn't a specific level of strength required. In my opinion it is a combination of balance, strength, and good movement or technique.
Where forearm strength is concerned, you could practice climbing but most people don't have rock walls near their house. I used to do a dew laps around the tennis court fences at the local park. Great forearm workout which helps build balance, strength and cost nothing. Just traverse on the side without a cross bar.
Cheers,
-Dave
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jammer
Aug 19, 2006, 3:55 PM
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Strength / weight ratio ... think in these terms when wondering if you are strong enough.
my 2Ē worth ...
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islandbear
Aug 24, 2006, 6:08 AM
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Being a new climber having difficulties making it more than 2/3 of the way up a wall, I've really appreciated all of your responses.
I thought I'd be a good climber, and I hope still that one day I will do okay at it (I'm 44 years old and 40-50 lbs overweight). I'll keep on doing what so many of you have repeated - climb, climb, climb! Though thanks to a lack of confidence, I find a lot of excuses to belay people instead of climbing as much as I should.
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climbindrummer
Aug 29, 2006, 4:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Wouldn't some cardio help with the endurance side of things a bit, though? dev Don't get me wrong, you should be doing some cardio. It will make you a healthier and happier person, but will have no impact on your climbing (except if weight is an issue). Josh
Have to disagree in a big way with you there. Training your cardiovascular endurance can and does have a significant impact on your climbing.
The reason you get pumped on a climb is that you have reached your anaerobic threshold. This means that the ability of your cardiovascular system to deliver oxygen and remove waste has been outpaced by your muscular demand. The muscles continue to work in a low-oxygen environment and convert to anaerobic metabolism which produces lactic acid. Cadiovascular training raises your anaerobic threshold; that is, it will take you longer reach a point where you begin to produce lactic acid and once you do, you will recover much faster because your system is more efficient at waste removal.
You can also train your local endurance by training just below a pump (ARCing; which will raise your anaerobic threshold and improve recovery time) and by training through a serious pump to raise your lactic acid tolerance (4x4's and pyramids).
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cliffhanger9
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Aug 31, 2006, 1:20 AM
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Sorry to disagree with the very common trend going on here of "keep climbing" and "train for climbing by climbing". Although I do agree that climbing is one of the better ways to train for climbing, you arent at that stage yet. Its not a matter of training, its a matter of learning how to climb. You can "keep on climbing" all you want but if you dont know what you are doing its only going to make things worse - youll get burned out and frustrated because keeping on doing the same wrong stuff isnt making you better.
Honestly, please dont take offense, but if you are indeed only making only 2 moves before falling off, you are doing something wrong. There are quite a bit of "technique" issues that the "keep on climbing" people dont even realize that they do.
I m particularly surprised that noone here as mentioned a few of these tips. No doubt about it, overhangs/inverted/roofs/whateveryouwanttocallthems, are definitely more upper body intensive. But doing pull ups or lat pull downs probably arent worth it. One of the most rudimentary tips I can give is to let your skeleton take the weight and save your muscles for moving. What I mean by this is hanging from your arms with your elbows straight between moves and let your body's natural bone structure support your weight. Take a closer look at your arms when you are climbing, or better yet have an experienced climber watch you. If you have bent elbows and are tensing your bicepts the whole time, yeah youre gonna get tired. hang out on them and then muscle in only at the instant when you go for the next move. Think of it like doing the monkey bars in the schoolyard. Your arms/elbows are straight down and your weight is literally hanging from your arm structure.
I know its kind of confusing but hope this helps someone.
Best thing I can tell you is to get friendly with some of the more advanced climbers and have them analyze you a bit and be willing to take cunstructive criticism. Dont keep climbing otherwise. Trust me, if you keep doing what you are doing wrong, you wont get stronger - you will probalby hrt yourself and or get frustrated with not advancing and give up on it entirely.
good luck
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awilson86
Aug 31, 2006, 2:09 AM
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what about things like finger trainers?
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victor999
Aug 31, 2006, 3:18 AM
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In reply to: one thing to do is never let go of your grip master haha. bring that beast every where.
i've been climbing for about two years but it wasn't until i bought my gripmaster a month ago that i noticed significant gains with my hand/finger strength. i'll never go back to life without the gripmaster. (and no, i don't work for them!)
keep it in your car and play with it when you're driving. you'd be surprised how much of a hand workout you get throughout the week. make red lights your cue to start squeezing. :D
victor
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awilson86
Aug 31, 2006, 3:33 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: one thing to do is never let go of your grip master haha. bring that beast every where. i've been climbing for about two years but it wasn't until i bought my gripmaster a month ago that i noticed significant gains with my hand/finger strength. i'll never go back to life without the gripmaster. (and no, i don't work for them!) keep it in your car and play with it when you're driving. you'd be surprised how much of a hand workout you get throughout the week. make red lights your cue to start squeezing. :D victor |
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awilson86
Aug 31, 2006, 3:42 AM
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what would be better for general hand training like a sand filled ball or something like metolius gripsaver? and would it be benificial for a new climber to work on hand strength (have a lot of time i could do that at work)
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cliffhanger9
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Aug 31, 2006, 3:53 AM
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personally, I'd like to delay the arthritis and carpal tunnel as much as possible so i generally stay away from those kinds of things but I honestly dont know if this is a valid argument or not. Perhaps these kinds of gimick exercises actually do make your joints and ligaments etc stronger and less prone to injury - not sure - I just have a feeling they make you wear out faster (my personal instincts). Would love to hear from someone with a background in this area though..
Regardless of my current theories, I have gone through differnt phases and tried differnet things - I have a most difficult gripmaster, and one of those dyna flexes too but...quite frankly, I got bored with them really quick..
to each his own I guess
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fluxus
Aug 31, 2006, 4:40 AM
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The thing that new climbers have difficulty with is understanding what challenge they are actually facing when they get stumped on a move or a climb. It almost always feels like strength is the limiting factor, that's just the way it is, but what it takes a long time to understand is that climbing is an activity defined by its cognitive / motor learning complexity.
This is why its so important for all climbers (not just noobs) to practice proper movement over and over again. The climber who has mastered climbing movement does not exist.
Don't bother using hand trainers, or other such devices, their usefullness for climbers is marginal at the very best best.
what climbers need is a structured, progressive program that teaches them the fundamental elements of climbing movement. You can't really do this alone. Take lessons at the local gym, do a lot of mileage well below your max, and climb for the sake of the movement, if you don't do a climb or a boulder problem very well figure out why, work on each move individually until you have discovered some methods of doing it that actually work.
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victor999
Aug 31, 2006, 12:46 PM
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In reply to: It almost always feels like strength is the limiting factor, that's just the way it is, but what it takes a long time to understand is that climbing is an activity defined by its cognitive / motor learning complexity. Don't bother using hand trainers, or other such devices, their usefullness for climbers is marginal at the very best best.
a. when i hear a climber say that "strength isn't that important" or some variation, i often discover that they have incredible strength and are simply downplaying it... i don't disagree that technique is critical to climbing ability, but to suggest that finger, hand and forearm strength aren't necessary for pulling difficult moves.... well, that's just a form of denial! :lol:
b. some may argue that gripmasters (and the like) are "gimmicky" or "useless" (again, probably coming from guys/gals who can already squeeze 1,000 lbs.) but before i started using my gripmaster, my pinching ability was seriously lacking. pinching on certain holds is now a fun activity for me (when before it did not exist). perhaps for noob climbers (and i would consider myself still a noob) a gripmaster or similar device can help them "advance" their initially weak fingers/forearms...
and of course a gripmaster is boring, just like sit-ups. that doesn't mean it's not an important aspect. at a minimum, a gripmaster or the like can help warm-up fingers/hands before a gym/crag workout.
c. in the last two years climbing has made my body stronger, but one of the things i've noticed most about the gains in strength is that my body is more "even"-- that is, certain muscles (ie. fingers, forearms) have "caught up" to other, intially stronger muscles in my body. i believe that to climb well the body needs to be a "finely tuned machine" wherein each part does its share. for me, certain parts (eg. fingers) weren't able to match others (eg. biceps). now that my fingers, hands, and forearms have "caught up" to other muscles in my body, i'm finding that i can now focus more on my technique.
i'm sure in 5 more years i'll be telling Noob's "aw, don't worry about strength, just focus on your technique!" :P
peace-
victor
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johnny_jibba
Aug 31, 2006, 1:02 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: It almost always feels like strength is the limiting factor, that's just the way it is, but what it takes a long time to understand is that climbing is an activity defined by its cognitive / motor learning complexity. Don't bother using hand trainers, or other such devices, their usefullness for climbers is marginal at the very best best. a. when i hear a climber say that "strength isn't that important" or some variation, i often discover that they have incredible strength and are simply downplaying it... i don't disagree that technique is critical to climbing ability, but to suggest that finger, hand and forearm strength aren't necessary for pulling difficult moves.... well, that's just a form of denial! :lol: b. some may argue that gripmasters (and the like) are "gimmicky" or "useless" (again, probably coming from guys/gals who can already squeeze 1,000 lbs.) but before i started using my gripmaster, my pinching ability was seriously lacking. pinching on certain holds is now a fun activity for me (when before it did not exist). perhaps for noob climbers (and i would consider myself still a noob) a gripmaster or similar device can help them "advance" their initially weak fingers/forearms... and of course a gripmaster is boring, just like sit-ups. that doesn't mean it's not an important aspect. at a minimum, a gripmaster or the like can help warm-up fingers/hands before a gym/crag workout. c. in the last two years climbing has made my body stronger, but one of the things i've noticed most about the gains in strength is that my body is more "even"-- that is, certain muscles (ie. fingers, forearms) have "caught up" to other, intially stronger muscles in my body. i believe that to climb well the body needs to be a "finely tuned machine" wherein each part does its share. for me, certain parts (eg. fingers) weren't able to match others (eg. biceps). now that my fingers, hands, and forearms have "caught up" to other muscles in my body, i'm finding that i can now focus more on my technique.
I don't believe fluxus is arguing that strength is not important. I believe he's just saying strength is often incorrectly identified as the limiting factor when in fact technique more often than not is the limiting factor. Beginner and intermediate climbers, in the course of working on their technique, should experience significant strength gains as well. More importantly, these strength gains will be very climbing specific, unlike gains made using most other training aids.
It is important, however, to train the opposing muscle groups to those muscles strengthened by climbing. This often requires utilizing other training aids.
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fluxus
Aug 31, 2006, 5:35 PM
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Victor,
Johnny is exactly right, there is a huge world of difference between the vairations on the denial of strength as a factor in climbing performance and my own emphasis on the remarkable challenge posed by the cognitive aspects of learning climbing movement, which more often than not goes unrecognized by climbers at all levels.
As for hand trainers, they are repetitive, they work the muscles of the forearms in a way that is significantly different than the way we use them in climbing, (with the exception of pinches), and they do not reproduce the hand and finger joint positions we commonly use in climbing. What does this mean? well any activity that is highly repetitive and works the exact same range of motion is more capable of being injurious than techniques that don't do this. Second, if these trainers do strengthen the forearm muscles they do so in a way that is fairly remote from climbing so one has to ask, "what is the cross over" my answer to that question is "minimal". If you want a good warm up of the fingers and hand for climbing do several easy routes before getting on something more challenging. This is a far better warm up than any hand exerciser could hope to be.
In reply to: c. in the last two years climbing has made my body stronger, but one of the things i've noticed most about the gains in strength is that my body is more "even"-- that is, certain muscles (ie. fingers, forearms) have "caught up" to other, intially stronger muscles in my body. i believe that to climb well the body needs to be a "finely tuned machine" wherein each part does its share. for me, certain parts (eg. fingers) weren't able to match others (eg. biceps). now that my fingers, hands, and forearms have "caught up" to other muscles in my body, i'm finding that i can now focus more on my technique.
I don't use the term technique myself (too anemic to fit for climbing) But, note that you priortize muscular fitness over movement skills. This is an ideological belief that has little to do with the pragmatics of learning to climb. Is there a relationship between muscular fitness and movement skills? Yes, certainly their is, but its not the one you describe here.
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victor999
Aug 31, 2006, 6:31 PM
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In reply to: But, note that you priortize muscular fitness over movement skills. This is an ideological belief that has little to do with the pragmatics of learning to climb. Is there a relationship between muscular fitness and movement skills? Yes, certainly their is, but its not the one you describe here.
Look, my only point is that you can have all the technique in the world BUT if you're fingers/hands/forearms are weak, you ain't gonna be able to hang on to that hold. :wink:
as far as an "approach" that i feel is spot-on: i agree with E. Horst when he describes it as a three-prong approach: technique, strength, and the mental game. you gotta have all three working for you if you want to climb well. to become a balanced climber, one has to work on their weaknesses, and for me right now (after 2 years of climbing), i need to work on my technique (strength and mental follow close behind!).
but in the beginning, i can guarantee you that my arm strength was the most limiting factor in my climbing.
what has helped me overall throughout the last 2 years? doing pull-ups, push-ups, sit-ups, using a gripmaster, climbing at the gym 2-3x per week, hitting the crags at least 1x a week, stretching, occasional yoga, free weights, running (!), downclimbing at the gym.... it ALL helps! i say find something that works for you and DO IT! :D
peace-
victor
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fluxus
Aug 31, 2006, 6:52 PM
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In reply to: Look, my only point is that you can have all the technique in the world BUT if you're fingers/hands/forearms are weak, you ain't gonna be able to hang on to that hold.
the strength vs. technique dichotomy rears its ugly head yet again.
In reply to: as far as an "approach" that i feel is spot-on: i agree with E. Horst
that explains everything.
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victor999
Aug 31, 2006, 7:04 PM
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[quote="fluxus"]The Self-Coached Climber: The guide to Movement, Training, and Performance by Dan Hague and Douglas Hunter 255 pages with 85min DVD. In reply to: probably explains it better! :shock: have a great labor day weekend and hope you all get outdoors!!! over and out-- victor
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jt512
Aug 31, 2006, 7:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: It almost always feels like strength is the limiting factor, that's just the way it is, but what it takes a long time to understand is that climbing is an activity defined by its cognitive / motor learning complexity. Don't bother using hand trainers, or other such devices, their usefullness for climbers is marginal at the very best best. a. when i hear a climber say that "strength isn't that important" or some variation, i often discover that they have incredible strength and are simply downplaying it... i don't disagree that technique is critical to climbing ability, but to suggest that finger, hand and forearm strength aren't necessary for pulling difficult moves.... well, that's just a form of denial! :lol: b. some may argue that gripmasters (and the like) are "gimmicky" or "useless" (again, probably coming from guys/gals who can already squeeze 1,000 lbs.) but before i started using my gripmaster, my pinching ability was seriously lacking. pinching on certain holds is now a fun activity for me (when before it did not exist). perhaps for noob climbers (and i would consider myself still a noob) a gripmaster or similar device can help them "advance" their initially weak fingers/forearms... [And from your profile:]now into my 2nd year of climbing; going down to the New, leading in the 5.7 - 5.9 range (goal is to lead a 5.10a by this fall...).
Victor, with all due respect, you are a beginner, and Fluxus is an expert climbing coach. If you believe that you need unusual grip strength to climb in 5.7 to 5.10a range than you are making precisely the attribution error he is referring to.
Jay
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chr1stopher
Sep 1, 2006, 1:46 PM
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Yo,
I'm new to climbing as well and found what you guys have said pretty use full. I think I might try anaerobic training to increase my lactic acid threshold as it sounds like hitting the weights is not the best best option. What do you guys think about flexibility, do any of you guys include flexibilty training in your training schedules?
Chris :)
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chronic
Sep 1, 2006, 2:45 PM
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In reply to: When I started climbing I thought there was no way I would ever be good at it because I'm pretty weak, but I liked it enough that I kept going. Soon enough I learned that if I twisted my body this way or stepped and reached that way it just felt normal and fluid to climb. That's when I finally realized that technique is just as important as strength (at least until you get to 5.13s and the only thing to hold onto is the size of a button; yeah I'm not there yet). Go climb.
I would have to agree with this one, though I am still a newb in regards to alot of climbing, but strength helps, but climbing technique is where the really aid is!
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johnny_jibba
Sep 1, 2006, 2:57 PM
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In reply to: any of you guys include flexibilty training in your training schedules?
My own opinion, not supported by any facts just from what I've noticed, is that people have wildly different levels of natural flexibility. For this reason, some people don't have to spend any time on training flexibility other than just going climbing.
I find that climbing increases my own flexibility, but I also practice Yoga. Yoga has been very helpful for me in avoiding injuries from the general endurance aerobic exercise (trail running, hiking, biking) that I'm doing to lose weight. I also like it because I generally disliked stretching routines and did not have the dicispline to stick with a stretching program.
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gobotrocker
Sep 8, 2006, 2:23 PM
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I've found that pull ups (twice a week) and an Abdominal workout (daily) help keep me from injuring myself and keep my back strong... And climbing 2-3 times a week WILL improve your strength.
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racer999
Sep 9, 2006, 1:05 PM
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My first post, so first Hello to all. I am 46 and have been climbing for 3 months so I'm a complete beginner. I am climbing pretty comfortably top rope or following 5.10a/b. I am relatively strong for my weight, and find that I can power myself through many difficult parts of a climb. Since that stops working as the climbs get harder, the thing that has really helped me is a technique that has served me well in other sports - "trying easy". Simply put, if I climb something and feel like I used more power than it needed I keep climbing it until it feels "easy" (from a power perspective) because I am using better technique.
Aaron
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fluxus
Sep 9, 2006, 4:39 PM
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In reply to: That's when I finally realized that technique is just as important as strength (at least until you get to 5.13s and the only thing to hold onto is the size of a button; yeah I'm not there yet).
This one slipped past me earlier. The idea that movement skills become less important at the higher leves and strength becomes more importantl is false, movement skills become MORE important the higher in the grades you go.
Why?
Because of balance: smaller holds, and steeper climbs usually result in a greater number of off-set balance moves, which is more often than not the most difficult type of balance for climbers to deal with. The margin of error is smaller, the positioning of the COG in space needs to be very percise, as must all other aspects of a climbers movement from the placement of hands and feet on the holds to the timing of the move. A climber's movement skills never stop developing as long as they keep trying hard moves and routes, the climber's brain and body need to adjust to the new more challenging context in which they attempt to move.
It's just never a good idea to think in terms of strength vs. technique as we have seen several people do in this thread, its a gross misrepresentation of what happens when climbers move.
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nomuse
Sep 10, 2006, 9:36 PM
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Jumping in here when I saw so many familiar stories. I'm 45 and a newbie climber...less than a year, I think, although I've been a grid monkey most of my career.
Apocryphal story on the strength...I've gone from one pull-up to five after climbing for a year (no other strength training in that time), but my grip strength is within a few pounds of that of another carpenter (and semi-pro tree climber) I know. On the other hand, I can start some of those dratted V2's now, and I didn't used to be able to crimp on to them.
But lest it seem I'm voting in on the strength side of the debate...it's technique that has solved almost every problem I've faced. I tend to climb a little too much like a guy (dynamic, campusing, skipping holds because I've got the reach to do it), but the climbers I really respect and learn the most from are those who climb gentle and deliberate.
Technique-improvement drill I like; static climbing. Make every move, but pause before you lock on it. If you can't pause and hold before making the hold, then you aren't static. It's also a tremendous workout, as you are basically climbing in slo-mo.
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bagre_rei
Sep 12, 2006, 1:49 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: as far as an "approach" that i feel is spot-on: i agree with E. Horst that explains everything.
To Victor999. Anyway the guy knows better about muscular preparation so, in the particular case of crimp-masters, I would follow the advice and change it for another kind of exercise that mimics better the movements you do when climbing. (Yet Iīm unable to find where Hörst advocates the use of that device :) )
My two cents (one cent?): If you
a) are seventeen and fat less
b) donīt have time issues
c) has climbed for the last seventeen years
d) any combination of the above
Then you really do not need to get any stronger and the "just climb" approach to get a better climber will serve you well. Dani Andrada rules and guess how much times he trains? Zero hour and zero minutes.
All the rest of us, even if not trying to do the mighty routes that, letīs say, Jay does, can use some form of extra strength. (Of course there are places where climbing is mostly slab, and thus the technique/strength ratio necessary to improve is higher). The form of this strength itīs the really issue.
My perception is that capillarity and power endurance (forearms) are two areas that you can train right away from the beginning. What you do not need to train in the beginning is burst.
Edited to add emoticon
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johnny_jibba
Sep 13, 2006, 12:56 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: as far as an "approach" that i feel is spot-on: i agree with E. Horst that explains everything. Ethics, someone?
Fluxus has openly disagreed with Horst's approach to training since long before his own book came out. I don't see anything even remotely resembling an ethics slip here.
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fluxus
Sep 14, 2006, 5:18 AM
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In reply to: Fluxus has openly disagreed with Horst's approach to training since long before his own book came out. I don't see anything even remotely resembling an ethics slip here.
True, I'm not just stirring the pot I have an honest, long standing disagreement with Eric on many issues. The ethical issue, if there is one, may be that I'm not always nice about it. Eric on the other hand would never be a punk about a disagreement. He's very good about taking the high road.
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