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microbarn
Oct 3, 2006, 12:00 AM
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In another thread, it was suggested that everyone carry a wrench for any bolt with a loose hanger:
http://rockclimbing.com/topic/120525
I would like to chip in when and where I can, BUT I don't know anything about bolting. I hear over and over again to have a veteran bolter show you the ropes. I haven't found anyone to do this. So, I am kind of curious about this recommendation.
Do others agree?
If any sport climber comes along and sees a loose bolt he should tighten it?
How much?
Aren't some bolts particular to the applied pressures?
Does a person have to be able to distinguish between these bolts before following the advice?
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chossmonkey
Oct 3, 2006, 12:08 AM
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That is actually a pretty good question.
The answer can vary quite a bit depending on the bolt type and the reasons that the bolt needs tightening.
The quick answer for people who don't know anything about bolting would probably be to tighten it with your fingers and let someone know it needs attention.
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dbrayack
Oct 3, 2006, 12:14 AM
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if its at the new (New River Gorge), get your hand wrench and tighten it down as hard as you can. If it breaks, then it was a bad bolt!
We use a huge breaker bar to break old bolts, I wouldn't worry about over tightening bolts on bomber rock, though softer areas you may want to be careful...a good "snug" tight sure be adequate...just good enough that it doenst loosten again.
-Danno
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coolklimber
Oct 3, 2006, 12:21 AM
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I too find some loose nuts at the crags, I give them a snug up. I don't have any bolting experience but I know I will not be able to break a bolt by tightening it.
>Cam
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sbaclimber
Oct 3, 2006, 12:25 AM
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In reply to: if its at the new (New River Gorge), get your hand wrench and tighten it down as hard as you can. If it breaks, then it was a bad bolt! We use a huge breaker bar to break old bolts...
Personally, I wouldn't be worried about the bolt you tightened down as much as you could and snapped off, but rather the one that didn't snap. How close is it now to snapping? Do you know? :shock:
I think chossmonkey's advice was a lot more sensible.
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sbaclimber
Oct 3, 2006, 12:29 AM
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In reply to: if its at the new (New River Gorge), get your hand wrench and tighten it down as hard as you can. If it breaks, then it was a bad bolt! We use a huge breaker bar to break old bolts...
Personally, I wouldn't be worried about the bolt you tightened down as much as you could and snapped off, but rather the one that didn't snap. How close is it now to snapping? Do you know? :shock:
I think chossmonkey's advice was a lot more sensible.
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jacobg
Oct 3, 2006, 12:41 AM
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my main partner is an experianced bolter and ive talked to him about this very subject. his view on it (and what he has taught me) is that if the NUT is loose but the bolt is not moving its ok to tighten it down. but if the BOLT is loose then you have a problem and it needs immidiate attention by an experianced bolter! and if the hanger is a spinner but the nut and bolt are not budging its just fine as long as its in the direction of the fall...
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climbingtrash
Oct 3, 2006, 12:55 AM
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Just snug the nut/bolt back down and then take it a quarter to a half turn past that. This is the safest, simplest way I can think of for someone with no knowledge of expansion bolts. :wink:
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salamanizer
Oct 3, 2006, 2:15 AM
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In reply to: if its at the new (New River Gorge), get your hand wrench and tighten it down as hard as you can. If it breaks, then it was a bad bolt! We use a huge breaker bar to break old bolts, I wouldn't worry about over tightening bolts on bomber rock, though softer areas you may want to be careful...a good "snug" tight sure be adequate...just good enough that it doesn't loosen again. -Danno
This advice is total bull$hit! I don't mean to insult, but you are a classic example of an "Unqualified bolt tightener" and proof of why you should know what you're doing before you go messing with bolts. It scares me to think about how many people go around doing similar things.
If you encounter a loose bolt, depending whether it's the bolt, nut or hanger that's loose, here's what you should do, providing you have no clue of bolting.
Bolt's loose... Try and tighten it by hand, then get someone with a clue to check it out.
Nut's loose... Tighten it by hand
Hanger's loose... Try and tighten it by hand, if its still loose (provided the bolt its self is solid) don't worry about it.
Then find someone to give it a look. If in the rare instance you cannot find anyone who knows what there doing to check it out. Do some research, find out exactly what type of bolt it is, get a torque wrench and try tightening it to spec. Better yet, just leave it alone. Someone will get to it sooner or later.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 3, 2006, 2:15 AM
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Stud style bolts with the threads visible you can tighten a spinner. use a short wrench and you won't have a problem over tightening. Fixe recomends 60ft lbs so if you are a big weight lifter and on the juice you may want to let someone else do the job but it ain't rocket science. 5 piece powers bolts have just the bolt head showing, No threads. if it is a spinner you can't tighten it up as it has bottomed out in the hole. It is easier to over tourqe this type of bolt so leave it alone. The only cure is to take the bolt out and add a washer or totaly remove the bolt and drill the hole deeper. I wish that there was solid data out there on which was stronger. A 5 piece spinner or the same bolt with an eaxtra washer added?
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salamanizer
Oct 3, 2006, 2:16 AM
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In reply to: if its at the new (New River Gorge), get your hand wrench and tighten it down as hard as you can. If it breaks, then it was a bad bolt! -Danno
This advice is total bull$hit! I don't mean to insult, but you are a classic example of an "Unqualified bolt tightener" and proof of why you should know what you're doing before you go messing with bolts. It scares me to think about how many people go around doing similar things.
If you encounter a loose bolt, depending whether it's the bolt, nut or hanger that's loose, here's what you should do, providing you have no clue of bolting.
Bolt's loose... Try and tighten it by hand, then get someone with a clue to check it out.
Nut's loose... Tighten it by hand
Hanger's loose... Try and tighten it by hand, if its still loose (provided the bolt its self is solid) don't worry about it.
Then find someone to give it a look. If in the rare instance you cannot find anyone who knows what there doing to check it out. Do some research, find out exactly what type of bolt it is, get a torque wrench and try tightening it to spec. Better yet, just leave it alone. Someone will get to it sooner or later.
We use a huge breaker bar to break old bolts, I wouldn't worry about over tightening bolts on bomber rock, though softer areas you may want to be careful...a good "snug" tight sure be adequate...just good enough that it doesn't loosen again.
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climbbaja
Oct 3, 2006, 2:31 AM
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In reply to: if its at the new (New River Gorge), get your hand wrench and tighten it down as hard as you can. If it breaks, then it was a bad bolt! We use a huge breaker bar to break old bolts, I wouldn't worry about over tightening bolts on bomber rock, though softer areas you may want to be careful...a good "snug" tight sure be adequate...just good enough that it doenst loosten again. -Danno
That is DANGEROUS advice! And it is flat out WRONG advice!
Bolts are stretched when they are torqued. Over-torquing stretches them into a dangerous condition until ultimate failure of the fastener.
A 3/8" Powers (aka Rawl) "5 piece" has a 5/16" diameter bolt; the torque specs are easily exceeded with a normal hand wrench. A 3/8" stainless steel wedge anchor requires even less torque, and is very easily over-torqued.
There is a significant danger when a bolt has been over-torqued, short of snapping off.
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sbaclimber
Oct 3, 2006, 2:36 AM
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In reply to: Fixe recomends 60ft lbs so if you are a big weight lifter and on the juice you may want to let someone else do the job but it ain't rocket science.
This is why I shelled out the 50 bucks for a torque wrench, I would rather be poor than dead.
^^^^ I just saw climbbaja beat me to the punch^^^^
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climbbaja
Oct 3, 2006, 3:20 AM
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In reply to: Actually, Fixe's Wedge bolts are only supposed to be tightened to 30ft/lbs. That is similar to the bolts I use, and why I said it isn't hard to tighten those particular types well beyond that torque. ^^^^ I just saw climbbaja beat me to the punch^^^^
Don't know which wedge anchors you use, but the 3/8" SS Ramset/Redhead "TruBolts" that I use call for around 22 ft/lbs. Their curent website shows 25 ft/lbs and doesn't differentiate between torque specifications for carbon steel and stainless. Stainless typically has lower torque specs.
The Fixe wedge anchors are still marketed as 3/8", though they are actually a bigger, 10mm diameter. So if you are using 3/8" SS, 30 ft/lbs may be too much!
Glad to hear that others are responsible enough to purchase and use a torque wrench :)
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sbaclimber
Oct 3, 2006, 3:32 AM
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^^^ That is why I said "similar". I use Ramset/RedHead 3/8" SS Trubolts, and I set the torque wrench according to the info giving on the website.
Edit, back to the Fixe wedge bolts....
In reply to: So if you are using 3/8" SS, 30 ft/lbs may be too much! |
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boltdude
Oct 3, 2006, 3:38 AM
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Do NOT just crank down on bolts - they can and will break.
The most popular bolts for climbing in the US are the "Rawl 5-piece" (now called Power-Bolt).
For years, the recommended torques were:
35 ft-lbs for a 3/8" carbon steel 5-piece
20 ft-lbs for a 3/8" stainless steel 5-piece
Powers just drastically LOWERED the recommended torques. Now they are:
20-25 ft-lbs for a 3/8" carbon steel 5-piece
10-12 ft-lbs for a 3/8" stainless steel 5-piece
http://www.powers.com/product_06914.html
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climbbaja
Oct 3, 2006, 3:57 AM
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In reply to: The most popular bolts for climbing in the US are the "Rawl 5-piece" (now called Power-Bolt). For years, the recommended torques were: 35 ft-lbs for a 3/8" carbon steel 5-piece 20 ft-lbs for a 3/8" stainless steel 5-piece Powers just drastically LOWERED the recommended torques. Now they are: 20-25 ft-lbs for a 3/8" carbon steel 5-piece 10-12 ft-lbs for a 3/8" stainless steel 5-piece http://www.powers.com/product_06914.html
Hey boltdude,
It's about time they revised their torque specs! I've known for years that 35 ft/lbs on the 3/8" "5-piece" (5/16" inner bolt) size was WRONG! I think we even e-mailed on the subject. I had talked to their supposed "engineer", and met with corporate denials. A number of these broke while tightening with a torque wrench to their (old) specifications...
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sbaclimber
Oct 3, 2006, 4:03 AM
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In reply to: A number of these broke while tightening with a torque wrench to their (old) specifications...
Edit, yay, 1000 posts!
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 3, 2006, 4:15 AM
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I thought for sure that fixe had listed 60 but maby they lowered it or My dixlexia got it wrong. I use a small wrench w/ short handle so am pretty suer that I have not over tightened. I always felt that the 5 piece bolts needed a lighter touch. Definatly do NOT attempt to righten a powers bolt spinner. They will not tighten. tap it win a hammer if that does not snug up the hanger then the hole is too shallow. I have a tourqe wrernch but never used it for bolts . I just snug them up. No need to crank hard.
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microbarn
Oct 3, 2006, 3:36 PM
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All this talk about which bolt is which and what-not is not helping. I don't recognize bolts currently, and lot's of others reading this won't either.
Does anyone disagree with this:
In reply to: Just snug the nut/bolt back down and then take it a quarter to a half turn past that. This is the safest, simplest way I can think of for someone with no knowledge of expansion bolts. :wink:
Any loose bolt/nut I come to, I hand tighten...followed by a wrench tighten of 1/4 or 1/2 turn more?
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t-dog
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Oct 3, 2006, 6:28 PM
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yet another reason why glue-in bolts can be a good alternative...
No loosening, no over-torquing, just bomber.
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devkrev
Oct 3, 2006, 6:55 PM
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In reply to: yet another reason why glue-in bolts can be a good alternative... No loosening, no over-torquing, just bomber.
As long as they are installed properly.
dev
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t-dog
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Oct 3, 2006, 7:50 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: yet another reason why glue-in bolts can be a good alternative... No loosening, no over-torquing, just bomber. As long as they are installed properly.
yup, same goes for any kind of bolt, glue-in or otherwise, they need to be properly installed to be good.
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112
Oct 3, 2006, 8:31 PM
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Torque is the moment applied to the bolt. A given torque will result in different internal stresses within the bolt based on the conditions of the bolt, rock, and hole. Missalignment, dirt, and galled threads can all result in torques that erroneously imply a sound installation.
If you are bolting on lead - use expansion bolts. Anything else and I think you should be glueing them in. But that's just me! Proper initial install is vital.
I watched HealyJ 'remove' old bolts by simply overtorqueing them. It was surprising how little effort it took!
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climbingtrash
Oct 4, 2006, 2:46 AM
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In reply to: All this talk about which bolt is which and what-not is not helping. I don't recognize bolts currently, and lot's of others reading this won't either. Any loose bolt/nut I come to, I hand tighten...followed by a wrench tighten of 1/4 or 1/2 turn more?
The top bolt is a "rawl" or 5 piece bolt. The nut on this bolt is on the back, inside the hole when placed and when you tighten, the bolt is being turned while the nut is being drawn forward into the sleeve forcing it to expand and stay in place. This is the bolt that, if the hanger is loose or spins, cannot be tightened because the hole was to shallow and the bolt has bottomed out. (The bolt show is not one I use for climbing, I couldn't find one of my 3-3/4" for the pic.)
The bottom bolt is a stud bolt. The nut is on the out side, against the hanger, with threads exposed. When this bolt is tightened the bolt is being drawn out of the hole forcing the brass sleeve to expand and keep it in place. These bolts can be tightened when they come loose and I feel the safest way to do this is to snug the nut down by hand and then tighten with a wrench a 1/4 to a 1/2 turn past that.
http://i49.photobucket.com/...gtrash/boltsside.jpg
Left: Rawl 5 piece bolt. Right: Stud bolt.
http://i49.photobucket.com/...ngtrash/boltstop.jpg
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