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jimdavis
Jan 3, 2007, 8:35 PM
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dynosore wrote: In reply to: Come back when you have 10+ years of multipitch trad under your belt. Then you'll be ready. I appreciate your exuberence, but you just ain't ready. Clearly one needs 10+ years of multipitch trad to teach single pitch sport climbing techniques  The elitism of this site is a riot sometimes....
I wrote up a lesson plan for a weekend Intro to Sport trip...it consisted of an evening at an indoor wall, working on lead belaying and clipping. Then day 1 was backclipping, z clipping, where to clip from, watching your feet around the lead rope, and lowering off all on top rope backup. Day 2 was live leads, and time to climb what you wanted and get feedback.
If you asked me to teach a day 3, it'd include fart jokes, slacklining, and general shennagans. I'm no huge sport climber, but I don't see how you could give formal instruction on a whole lot more than that. Obviouslly there are some things, rapping down, dynamic belays, etc that I didn't mention....but 4 days is a long time...I'd want to get some advice from some experts for occupying people for that long with sport climbing.
Best of luck to you,
Jim
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jabtocrag
Jan 3, 2007, 8:49 PM
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Kudos Gabe...couldn't agree more!!
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jt512
Jan 3, 2007, 9:13 PM
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jimdavis wrote: dynosore wrote: In reply to: Come back when you have 10+ years of multipitch trad under your belt. Then you'll be ready. I appreciate your exuberence, but you just ain't ready. Clearly one needs 10+ years of multipitch trad to teach single pitch sport climbing techniques The elitism of this site is a riot sometimes.... The hardest thing about this whole proposal...IMO...is keeping people busy for 4 days!!! That's a long ass time to be teaching people about sport climbing. I wrote up a lesson plan for a weekend Intro to Sport trip...it consisted of an evening at an indoor wall, working on lead belaying and clipping. Then day 1 was backclipping, z clipping, where to clip from, watching your feet around the lead rope, and lowering off all on top rope backup. Day 2 was live leads, and time to climb what you wanted and get feedback. If you asked me to teach a day 3, it'd include fart jokes, slacklining, and general shennagans. I'm no huge sport climber, but I don't see how you could give formal instruction on a whole lot more than that. Obviouslly there are some things, rapping down, dynamic belays, etc that I didn't mention....but 4 days is a long time...I'd want to get some advice from some experts for occupying people for that long with sport climbing. Best of luck to you, Jim
That's odd. I've been sport climbing for 10 years and I don't shit about it. I could keep students busy for a hell of a lot longer than 4 days. Unless the students are climbing 5.14 the end of the lesson, then they still have something to learn. If you don't know what that is, then you aren't qualified to teach them.
Hint: it ain't about equipment.
Jay
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richmond
Jan 3, 2007, 9:36 PM
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grow up jay.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Y'know, if you were actually qualified for this position, you wouldn't be making this post.
Jay
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jt512
Jan 3, 2007, 11:31 PM
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richmond wrote: grow up jay. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Y'know, if you were actually qualified for this position, you wouldn't be making this post. Jay
Grow up?
I think I'm grown up enough to recognize what I am and am not knowledgeable enough to teach. If someone (esp. with only 2 years climbing experience) has to ask a bunch of strangers on the internet what to include in a sport climbing course he isn't qualified to teach it. So, in the unlikely event you have a point, how about making it explicit?
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jan 3, 2007, 11:39 PM)
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jimdavis
Jan 4, 2007, 12:16 AM
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jt512 wrote: That's odd. I've been sport climbing for 10 years and I don't shit about it. I could keep students busy for a hell of a lot longer than 4 days. Unless the students are climbing 5.14 the end of the lesson, then they still have something to learn. If you don't know what that is, then you aren't qualified to teach them. Hint: it ain't about equipment. Jay
Jay, by the sounds of it, you could keep anyone busy for more than 4 days just by having them listen to you slam on people.
My comment was in regards to structering a lesson plan...IE what the OP asked about.
I'm not a 5.13 climber, and you know that. I'm not about to try and teach people to climb harder than I can. The people are taking this class to learn how to sport climb safely. That's the key here. You can teach them what they need to know to do that in a few days. Saying that your gonna critique footwork and body possitioning for the other 2 days might be beneficial to their climbing skills, but when the course is marketed as an Intro to Sport, and your goal is to teach them safe practices...spending their time (money) on technique feedback isn't nescessarily what they're paying for. Unless you have this in the marketing, I don't think it's fair to take their money for it.
I would run the course as a 2 day, let them go out on thier own and practice, and if they wanted coaching and technique deveolpment...then I'd arrange to do that on its own...or arrange for someone who's a better coach to do that with them. You might choose to run this differently, that's fine...good luck selling it.
You either misunderstood my comments, and my ideas of what a course like this should consist of...or you're just trying to be insulting. Hopefully it's the former.
Perhaps your views differ, but in my experience...this is what people are paying when they sign up for this kind of class.
Cheers,
Jim
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jt512
Jan 4, 2007, 12:36 AM
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jimdavis wrote: jt512 wrote: That's odd. I've been sport climbing for 10 years and I don't shit about it. I could keep students busy for a hell of a lot longer than 4 days. Unless the students are climbing 5.14 the end of the lesson, then they still have something to learn. If you don't know what that is, then you aren't qualified to teach them. Hint: it ain't about equipment. Jay Jay, by the sounds of it, you could keep anyone busy for more than 4 days just by having them listen to you slam on people.
I'm sorry my answer isn't politically correct enough for you. The fact remains that, if you have to ask on the internet what to teach, then you obviously don't know enough about the subject matter.
In reply to: I'm not a 5.13 climber, and you know that. I'm not about to try and teach people to climb harder than I can. The people are taking this class to learn how to sport climb safely. That's the key here.
No, that's your assumption. You don't know what they want to get out of the course. Hell, the students probably don't know what they want to get out of the course.
In reply to: You can teach them what they need to know to do that in a few days. Saying that your gonna critique footwork and body possitioning for the other 2 days might be beneficial to their climbing skills, but when the course is marketed as an Intro to Sport, and your goal is to teach them safe practices...
No, that's your goal. Sport climbing is a movement sport. The gear is secondary. If you just teach them the safety aspects of sport you are doing them a horrendous dis-service by completely ignoring what the sport is really all about.
In reply to: Perhaps your views differ, but in my experience...this is what people are paying when they sign up for this kind of class.
Your views are colored by your personal approach to the sport. I can assure you beyond any doubt that students will get more enjoyment out of a class that actually teaches them how to climb then just how to clip.
Jay
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jimdavis
Jan 4, 2007, 12:51 AM
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jt512 wrote: jimdavis wrote: jt512 wrote: That's odd. I've been sport climbing for 10 years and I don't shit about it. I could keep students busy for a hell of a lot longer than 4 days. Unless the students are climbing 5.14 the end of the lesson, then they still have something to learn. If you don't know what that is, then you aren't qualified to teach them. Hint: it ain't about equipment. Jay Jay, by the sounds of it, you could keep anyone busy for more than 4 days just by having them listen to you slam on people. I'm sorry my answer isn't politically correct enough for you. The fact remains that, if you have to ask on the internet what to teach, then you obviously don't know enough about the subject matter. In reply to: I'm not a 5.13 climber, and you know that. I'm not about to try and teach people to climb harder than I can. The people are taking this class to learn how to sport climb safely. That's the key here. No, that's your assumption. You don't know what they want to get out of the course. Hell, the students probably don't know what they want to get out of the course. In reply to: You can teach them what they need to know to do that in a few days. Saying that your gonna critique footwork and body possitioning for the other 2 days might be beneficial to their climbing skills, but when the course is marketed as an Intro to Sport, and your goal is to teach them safe practices... No, that's your goal. Sport climbing is a movement sport. The gear is secondary. If you just teach them the safety aspects of sport you are doing them a horrendous dis-service by completely ignoring what the sport is really all about. In reply to: Perhaps your views differ, but in my experience...this is what people are paying when they sign up for this kind of class. Your views are colored by your personal approach to the sport. I can assure you beyond any doubt that students will get more enjoyment out of a class that actually teaches them how to climb then just how to clip. Jay
Jay, I can see where you're coming from...but I don't agree with your assessment.
I think the majority of college students (a market I'm part of, and have sold trips to for 4.5 years) wants to learn what they need to be safe, pay a little as possible for, and get out climbing/ practicing on their own. Whether they enjoy 5.7 routes, or 5.12...it's up to them.
I also don't really think you should be pushing people to develop their technique, while they are learning to lead. Folks should be quite comfortable with leading before they attempt to lead things at/ above their ability level. (edit: the "you" is not ment to be directed at you Jay...just clarifying)
I think your approach is certainly valid, and has its time and place. However, I don't think it's the best approach to the college student market...which is where the bulk of my experience lies, and what the OP was questioning about.
Cheers,
Jim
(This post was edited by jimdavis on Jan 4, 2007, 2:50 AM)
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socalclimber
Jan 4, 2007, 2:34 AM
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Jim, you really need to shut the fuck up. Your 4 or 5 years of "experience" are of no interest. You come off as some know it all. You don't know shit.
I know Jay in passing over the years, he may be a "sport climber" but he has been around and done his share of trad. He's no dummy.
Neither you or this guy have a clue of what it takes to guide, so SHUT UP. If you can't comprehend this, the I would refer you to the "Ask Jim Davis" thread.
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jimdavis
Jan 4, 2007, 2:44 AM
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socalclimber wrote: Jim, you really need to shut the fuck up. Your 4 or 5 years of "experience" are of no interest. You come off as some know it all. You don't know shit. I know Jay in passing over the years, he may be a "sport climber" but he has been around and done his share of trad. He's no dummy. Neither you or this guy have a clue of what it takes to guide, so SHUT UP. If you can't comprehend this, the I would refer you to the "Ask Jim Davis" thread.
Gezz, your highness...didn't mean to offend you. Perhaps while I'm bent over asking you for forgivness you can run around behind me real quick and KISS MY ASS.
No where did I state that I know more about "x,y or z" than Jay...I have however been selling courses to the market in question here, for the past 4.5 years. I know what has run, and what hasn't...I've created these trips from scratch, from the budgets, locations, trip plan, marketing, and gear prep. Sorry, but I have a pretty good understanding of the college market for climbing instruction. I don't know what Jay's experience is with, I would probably guess the college market isn't his focus. If you want to try and rip on me for clarifying my experience and adding my opinion, you can kiss my ass...twice, once on each cheek.
All you've done so far is sling some shit, and offer nothing worthwhile here. Why don't you go back to beating your puppy, and let people share their opinions here.
Jim
(This post was edited by jimdavis on Jan 4, 2007, 2:47 AM)
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dr_feelgood
Jan 4, 2007, 2:53 AM
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jimdavis wrote: Why don't you go back to beating your puppy, and let people share their opinions here.
Is 'Beating Your Puppy' Slang for Masturbating? Because i am sooo out of touch with pop culture...
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socalclimber
Jan 4, 2007, 2:56 AM
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Sorry, but you have no clue as to what you are talking about. I'm not anonymous, maybe if you checked my profile you would have figured this out.
My name is Robert Fonda, I live in Joshua Tree.
Go back to your self absorbed "wisdom".
I promise you, I have far more miles under my belt than you. Keep on it, the blind leading the stupid.
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jimdavis
Jan 4, 2007, 2:57 AM
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dr_feelgood wrote: jimdavis wrote: Why don't you go back to beating your puppy, and let people share their opinions here. Is 'Beating Your Puppy' Slang for Masturbating? Because i am sooo out of touch with pop culture...
Cheers,
Jim
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jimdavis
Jan 4, 2007, 3:03 AM
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socalclimber wrote: Sorry, but you have no clue as to what you are talking about. I'm not anonymous, maybe if you checked my profile you would have figured this out. My name is Robert Fonda, I live in Joshua Tree. Go back to your self absorbed "wisdom". I promise you, I have far more miles under my belt than you. Keep on it, the blind leading the stupid.
I ammended my post already, you didn't sign your post, so I said what I did...I checked your profile and saw you name, edited most post soon after.
I typically don't feel the need to check a person's profile and research them, just to know that they're a dick.
You have SO much to offer about designing an marketing trips...so tell me, what's your experience with designing multi-day climbing programs for beginners? What trips have you created and sold to college age climbers.
Considering how abbrasive your post was, you must have a ton of insight into this. So please, give me an education here. What is it that I'm missing? I mean, you in all of YOUR years, must have done a lot more that 4 years of trip leading/ marketing to the audience in question....so enlighten me.
Jim
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jt512
Jan 4, 2007, 3:13 AM
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jimdavis wrote: socalclimber wrote: Jim, you really need to shut the fuck up. Your 4 or 5 years of "experience" are of no interest. You come off as some know it all. You don't know shit. I know Jay in passing over the years, he may be a "sport climber" but he has been around and done his share of trad. He's no dummy. Neither you or this guy have a clue of what it takes to guide, so SHUT UP. If you can't comprehend this, the I would refer you to the "Ask Jim Davis" thread. Gezz, your highness...didn't mean to offend you. Perhaps while I'm bent over asking you for forgivness you can run around behind me real quick and KISS MY ASS. No where did I state that I know more about "x,y or z" than Jay...I have however been selling courses to the market in question here, for the past 4.5 years. I know what has run, and what hasn't...I've created these trips from scratch, from the budgets, locations, trip plan, marketing, and gear prep. Sorry, but I have a pretty good understanding of the college market for climbing instruction.
Jim, teaching is not about marketing. The teacher is the one who is supposed to know the subject, and he decides what the course content needs to be.
When a college student signs up for a beginner sport climbing course, he has no idea what he wants, except to learn to climb -- whatever that means. But he doesn't know what "learning to climb entails," and frankly -- at least as far as sport climbing goes -- neither do you. Your profile states a sport climbing level of 5.9. That means that you do not understand how to climb. Period. And if you don't understand it, you can't very well comprehend whether the students want or need to understand it.
Let me tell you my experience from observing college sport climbing courses taught by various instructors at the gym I train at over the past 10 years. The best instructor doesn't even have the students put on a harness until their third session. The first two sessions are spent entirely on learning movement, and movement is stressed throughout the course, which lasts an academic quarter. The worst instructor never teaches movement at all. Guess whose students are climbing better at the end of the session. Guess which ones look like they're having more fun. Guess which ones are more likely to buy gym memberships after the course is over. Guess which ones turn up at New Jack City on their own.
You say that students want to go out and practice on their own; but unless you've taught them how to climb (as opposed to clip), they don't even know what to practice. Who do you think the idiots are who post up week after week with silly questions about pull-ups and hangboards and swimming and creatine and whatnot? They're the ones who that haven't learned that the secret to improving their climbing is to improve their climbing -- and if it isn't their first climbing instructor's job to teach them that, then I don't know whose job it is.
Jay
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jimdavis
Jan 4, 2007, 3:32 AM
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Jay, it sounds like your friend that teachs that course has been having good sucess with it...that's great.
The students I've sold my trips to have a free gym to climb at, 6 days a week. Just about everyone that signs up for our trips finds out about them because they come in and climb. They are already motivated to learn how to improve their climbing technique...they spend lots of time working boulder problems and tower routes at our gym. When they're in we offer what advice we can about movement ideas, or tips, or whatever. We also have a 1/2 semester course titled "principles of movement" a course centered around this.
In my mind, when I see participants sign up, and when I ask them what their goals are at our pre-trip meetings...it's to learn how to clip, lower, lead belay....understand the safety concerns and techniques to get out leading on bolts. I have yet to have students say "I signed up for the Intro to Sport class so I can advance my climbing 2 grades!"
We offer a lot of trips, Joshua Tree, El Portreo Chico, North Conway NH...where we spend more time coaching technique....this is explained up front, and people sign up for it. But most of the people I've had sign up for Intro to Sport, or Top Rope anchors, or Intro to Trad...are looking to learn the hard skills associated with safe climbing riggings and systems. They also struggle with spending the money on it, despite it being discounted as low as it can get. They're college students after all.
You're probably very right that my personal views and experience color this. But I've seen what sells, and what students ask for. In my experience, these people would rather save money and just be able to get out and enjoy being on the sharp on, no matter the difficulty (as long as it's not boaring for them).
So, that's why I would rather teach people for 2 days, get them comfortable and safe, then have them come back in a month or two after they've had some practice and experiences of their own.
The program you explained sounds really fun, like you said. But I don't think the economic constraints of college students enable many people to do that. If you can pull it off, then great! But you've got to get people to sign up first, and that's a concern of mine.
Lastly, just wanted to say thanks Jay, for being civil despite our different opinions. Folks that claim to be experts yet don't have the decency to be civil, and attempt to explain their opinions, are far too many on these boards.
Cheers,
Jim
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socalclimber
Jan 4, 2007, 3:43 AM
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Jim, first off, please accept my appologies for being harsh. Second, thank you Jay for pointing out what I was trying to say (poorly and I will admit it).
Lastly, I've spent allot of time on the rock, both from a standpoint of my own selfish needs to guiding.
There are 3 basic rules to guiding, none of these rules has anything to do with courses, laying out courses or otherwise. They are simple:
1) The client is trying to kill themselves.
2) The client is trying to kill you.
3) The client is trying to kill everyone around them.
Until you understand the essence of these three rules, YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT GUIDEING.
Another thing to consider is this:
Of the top 5 things that makes a good guide, climbing is #6 on that list. Think about that for a while.
Again, my apologies for my harshness. And no, Here's a hint: THIS DOES NOT CONTRADICT MY CLAIM THAT YOU NEED A SHITLOAD OF CLIMB TIME BEHIND YOUR BELT.
Oh, by the way, I have indeed "designed" guide school programs. I have also run the search and rescue team here in Josh, not to mention I " designed" that as well.
Robert Fonda
Joshua Tree Ca. (no, not Canada)
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Jan 4, 2007, 3:51 AM)
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cracklover
Jan 4, 2007, 3:49 AM
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Jay is right insofar as four full days is way too long to just teach a group how to put on a harness, tie in, belay, lead climb, second, rappel, and the various transitions. With that much time available, I agree that getting the students into basic technical movements and climbing techniques is a fabulous idea that'll pay dividends all throughout their future courses/climbing career.
With that said, I have a lot of sympathy for Jim's perspective, too. When I first learned to climb, I think the most valuable thing my instructor taught me about climbing technique was how to *figure it out myself*. I admit that I was a stubborn mofo to start with, but every time I fell, he really emphasized *me* analyzing what went wrong and figuring out how to change it. Most climbers seem to want technique and route-finding/sequence-finding spoon-fed them. And yet if you ask many of these climbers a simple question: okay, you just fell off your project - tell me which of your four limbs came off first, they can't tell you! I don't mean to suggest that holding the climbers hand through every movement is what Jay's suggesting, but it's certainly a pitfall/copout that any instructor should guard against in their pedagogy (IMHO).
GO
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jimdavis
Jan 4, 2007, 4:10 AM
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socalclimber wrote: Jim, first off, please accept my appologies for being harsh. There are 3 basic rules to guiding, none of these rules has anything to do with courses, laying out courses or otherwise. They are simple: 1) The client is trying to kill themselves. 2) The client is trying to kill you. 3) The client is trying to kill everyone around them. Until you understand the essence of these three rules, YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT GUIDEING.
Funny you emphasize that so much, of the top guides I've worked with/ trained under...not a 1 of them buys into that. Most view client as somone who doesn't know better...the treatment is similiar, but there is a signifigant distinction. I won't name drop, but if you want the names, PM me.
So I do disagree with you, as far as "not knowing shit about guiding" as you decide needs to be in all caps.
As far as climbing being very low on "your list" I'd agree with you there, and would be happy to hear your other top 5 things.
You mentioned you designed a guide school? Interesting, again, I'd be happy to talk with you about that, perhaps over PM.
One issue I have with your claims, at the moment....is that you say you climb at Joshua Tree, and run the SAR team there. I'll assume you guide there as well, as you must live close by to be on their SAR team. So how is it that you aren't listed anywhere on the AMGA's guide database? Last I checked, you had to have AMGA certification to guide any kind of climbing at J-Tree....so how is it you've gone so long without getting it?
http://www.amga.com/guides/index.html
You say you've designed a guide school, and do SAR and climb at J-Tree...so either you don't guide there, your name isn't what you say it is, or everything you're claiming is totally bogus.
I've posted my credentials, as modest as they may be...but going on my credentials, I actually can legally guide at J-Tree...yes, just top roping...but you apparently don't have even that.
I don't mean to call you a liar, but something sounds a little fishy. I'll wait till you write back before I make up my mind. Based on what I know about the guides in that area, and what it takes to guide in the park, something doesn't sound right to me.
Please explain, if you will. Thanks,
Jim
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ClimbingBebop
Jan 4, 2007, 4:17 AM
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Hey thanks Jim,
You're lack of elitism and a smarmy attitude is the exact reason I chose to make this post...
I think I've got everything dialed now, since the class is only 11am to 7pm with an hour lunch break in there somewhere I think I'll be able to fill it up fine. I'm not going to have anyone on the sharp end of the rope for liability, everything will be mock-leading and if the students want to take our belay test for our wall afterwards they can go through that after class is finished.
I've got day one as an Intro to climbing, teaching the basic knots they should know, then top-rope belay and finally just climbing and belaying each other.
Day 2 will be Intro to sport, sport anchors, clipping techniques (including Z-clip, back clipping, foot and hand placement, and all that jazz), then doing mock-leads while on TR for the rest of the time.
Day 3 will have the students cleaning routes and learning how to setup a top-belay at the anchors, then a small intro to ice climbing by another teacher at the end of the day.
Day 4 I'll give the test then we'll go climbing outside weather permitting
I think its reasonable, and mostly painless.
Thanks for your help Jim!
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jt512
Jan 4, 2007, 4:28 AM
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ClimbingBebop wrote: Hey thanks Jim, You're lack of elitism and a smarmy attitude is the exact reason I chose to make this post...
With compliments like that...
Jay
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jimdavis
Jan 4, 2007, 4:29 AM
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ClimbingBebop wrote: Hey thanks Jim, You're lack of elitism and a smarmy attitude is the exact reason I chose to make this post... Thanks for your help Jim!
Haha, thanks! That's some feedback I haven't gotten recently on this site, but I do appreciate it. 
Best of luck, but for god sakes, if there's anyway you can get out with a top notch guide...do it! That's not me calling you a n00b...but it'll be a big help to everyone involved.
Cheers,
Jim
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jimdavis
Jan 4, 2007, 4:30 AM
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jt512 wrote: ClimbingBebop wrote: Hey thanks Jim, You're lack of elitism and a smarmy attitude is the exact reason I chose to make this post... With compliments like that... Jay 
Jim
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jt512
Jan 4, 2007, 4:44 AM
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cracklover wrote: When I first learned to climb, I think the most valuable thing my instructor taught me about climbing technique was how to *figure it out myself*.
Well, he essentially gave you no choice but to learn climbing by trial and error, which is about as inefficient and ineffective a means as there could be. Climbing movement is very unintuitive (to adults, anyway). Back steps, drop knees, silent feet, pulling with the toe, body tension, initiating movement from a specific movement center, deadpoint timing, etc. -- all essential elements of climbing movement are unintuitive to all but the most gifted climbers. Leaving the average climbing student to learn these elements on his own is akin to leaving the average math student to discover integral calculus on his own. Most students will, in years of trial-and-error learning, not acquire these skills to the degree they could with a few weeks of focused instruction.
What other discipline teaches beginners by the method of trial-and-error? Name one. Swimming? Golf? Physics? Astronomy? How can you suggest that your climbing benefited by what is really no more than a lack of instruction?
Jay
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jt512
Jan 4, 2007, 4:52 AM
Post #50 of 152
(1548 views)
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Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
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jimdavis wrote: jt512 wrote: ClimbingBebop wrote: Hey thanks Jim, You're lack of elitism and a smarmy attitude is the exact reason I chose to make this post... With compliments like that... Jay It's been a while since I've seen/ heard that word...I liked it! Jim
Uh...never mind.
Jay
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