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majid_sabet
Feb 18, 2007, 10:32 PM
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greenketch wrote: overlord wrote: a beacon is definitely a good idea if you can afford it. definitely cheaper than untimely death though. You are correct only in theory here. We are not talking about a beacon. This potential law is for a MLU which is a device tht only works on Mt Hood and only works after the SAR folks have been led to start a search. It is sort of nice that most of us wont have to buy one (they are rented at certain locations before the climb) but they in no way can be compared to a beacon or a PLB. Definatley a knee jerk reaction to recent events. UP DATE According to our live news reporter JIM BOB, the two missing climbers are still alive with pulse of 112 , thanks to RFID pulse ox, PLB.GPS, SATPHONE NAV SYSTEM However rescuers are unable to reach them due to bad weather for the next 72 hours. More news from your local ABC network live from Mt.Hood. Danny Behomeontime
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 18, 2007, 10:36 PM)
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gavroche
Feb 19, 2007, 12:19 AM
Post #27 of 80
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The cost that they have to pay, both monetarily and risk to rescuers, for a long search and rescue is immense. It seems to me like a much better idea to make everyone pay a small fee to rent a device like that to try to reduce the burden of large search and rescues on everyone else.
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reno
Feb 19, 2007, 12:32 AM
Post #28 of 80
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Timely news story: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17211105/
In reply to: In Utah, two snowmobilers died in separate avalanches on Saturday. Zachary Holmes, 16, of Farr West, was buried by an avalanche estimated to be 300 feet wide near Tower Mountain in the Uinta Mountains, about 14 miles southeast of Heber City, the Wasatch County sheriff’s office said. Holmes was wearing a helmet and an avalanche beacon, deputy Michael Graves said. Following the beacon’s signal, his cousins found him and dug him out of the snow. He later died at the University of Utah Hospital, authorities said. While the naysayers will quickly point out that the beacon didn't save this young man, I would point out that it appears it DID contribute to giving the kid a fighting chance.
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notapplicable
Feb 19, 2007, 1:34 AM
Post #29 of 80
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It would appear (just saw it on Fox news while flipping) that there are three climbers missing on Mt. Hood and they are carrying PLB's. I guess once the weather clears we will see how this search pans out compared to the last one. It looked like the weather is pretty nasty right now, best of luck to them, who ever they are.
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petsfed
Feb 19, 2007, 1:46 AM
Post #30 of 80
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Wasn't the real cause of death on Hood last year the gigantic storm that rendered rescue and retreat impossible? Hell, they found the one body because it was at or about where the note they left said they would be. The three of them did everything right and still got snookered. This law is reactionary and ill informed. I could understand if the weather was clear and they just couldn't find the guys, but a PLB on each one of those climbers would've saved no lives last year.
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tattooed_climber
Feb 19, 2007, 1:49 AM
Post #31 of 80
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in order to get a backcountry pass (even alpine climbing, not just skiiing) in whistler, you must have a beacon, shovel and probe.....
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reno
Feb 19, 2007, 2:58 AM
Post #32 of 80
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petsfed wrote: Wasn't the real cause of death on Hood last year the gigantic storm that rendered rescue and retreat impossible? Somewhat, yes. Was reading an article today in Rotor and Wing (that, or Vertical, can't remember which.... we have both at work) that discussed the heli response from Oregon Nat'l Guard, how well their equipment worked (a hover at 11,000 feet using 51% capacity? Holy fuck, those Chinooks and Blackhawks are bad mo-fo aircraft...) and so forth. Weather was an issue at times, not so much at others, according to this article. Of course, this is focused on the operational aspects of helicopters only, and not the logistics of FINDING the people. Still, given enough ability to hover and sweep, one would think that having a better directional signal could only help.
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petsfed
Feb 19, 2007, 3:22 AM
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reno wrote: petsfed wrote: Wasn't the real cause of death on Hood last year the gigantic storm that rendered rescue and retreat impossible? Somewhat, yes. Was reading an article today in Rotor and Wing (that, or Vertical, can't remember which.... we have both at work) that discussed the heli response from Oregon Nat'l Guard, how well their equipment worked (a hover at 11,000 feet using 51% capacity? Holy fuck, those Chinooks and Blackhawks are bad mo-fo aircraft...) and so forth. Weather was an issue at times, not so much at others, according to this article. Of course, this is focused on the operational aspects of helicopters only, and not the logistics of FINDING the people. Still, given enough ability to hover and sweep, one would think that having a better directional signal could only help. Everything I read seemed pretty clear about how the conditions were either bad for the helicopters, or bad for rescue personnel on foot, or both.
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reno
Feb 19, 2007, 3:27 AM
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petsfed wrote: Everything I read seemed pretty clear about how the conditions were either bad for the helicopters, or bad for rescue personnel on foot, or both. Oh, yeah, don't get me wrong. Maybe I worded that badly, and I apologize if I did... The helo crews DID have a goodly chunk of time that was unflyable. But they also had windows where conditions were very much flyable, and it's in THOSE limited windows where the beacons *might* have helped. Again, lots of speculation here. Still, hard to argue that had the air crews had a better sense of where, exactly, to go, any search/rescue attempts could have been better focused.
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majid_sabet
Feb 19, 2007, 5:42 AM
Post #35 of 80
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Reno Three weeks, two of my friends out of party of 4 were killed on winter expedition. When the other two called for help, SAR hilo with 10 went to rescue, but then the hilo also crashed over the 13000 feet peak due to sudden bad weather but luckily it landed on 10 feet of snow and no one got killed. Three days later another army hilo took of to rescue every one. The SAR hilo is still up there with the other two bodies. They said, they will go back near the beginning of spring to bring down the bodies. So from pilot's view , we are not going to kill ourself to rescue one.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 19, 2007, 6:58 AM)
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reno
Feb 19, 2007, 11:50 AM
Post #36 of 80
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majid_sabet wrote: Reno Three weeks, two of my friends out of party of 4 were killed on winter expedition. When the other two called for help, SAR hilo with 10 went to rescue, but then the hilo also crashed over the 13000 feet peak due to sudden bad weather but luckily it landed on 10 feet of snow and no one got killed. Three days later another army hilo took of to rescue every one. The SAR hilo is still up there with the other two bodies. They said, they will go back near the beginning of spring to bring down the bodies. So from pilot's view , we are not going to kill ourself to rescue one. Yes, Majid, I understand the point of view of those in rescue helicopters. I didn't know you were a pilot.... what do you fly?
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alexmac
Feb 19, 2007, 1:40 PM
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Adk wrote: We need to be careful as a society to legislate what you "need' to carry with you on leisure time activities. It's no differant than "bear proof food containers" I'm not for such laws even though they can help out the ignorant. So, okay, then how about we charge the people who get lost up there the full fee for the rescue, this will be more costly in terms of insurance than the actual beacon. That said, I think smokers should carry their own health cost too.
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greenketch
Feb 19, 2007, 4:48 PM
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alexmac wrote: So, okay, then how about we charge the people who get lost up there the full fee for the rescue, this will be more costly in terms of insurance than the actual beacon. That said, I think smokers should carry their own health cost too. You should probably check into the cost of these things first. By better than eight to one it costs far more to rescue lost dayhikers and mushroom pickers. Next to day hikers is overnight hiikers etc. the cost on a comparisson of rescueing climbers is very close to the bottom of the list. What is differant is that climbers get lots of media attention and lost picnicers don't. That is not a viable reson to charge climbers an extraordinary fee.
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alexmac
Feb 19, 2007, 4:54 PM
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greenketch wrote: alexmac wrote: So, okay, then how about we charge the people who get lost up there the full fee for the rescue, this will be more costly in terms of insurance than the actual beacon. That said, I think smokers should carry their own health cost too. You should probably check into the cost of these things first. By better than eight to one it costs far more to rescue lost dayhikers and mushroom pickers. Next to day hikers is overnight hiikers etc. the cost on a comparisson of rescueing climbers is very close to the bottom of the list. What is differant is that climbers get lots of media attention and lost picnicers don't. That is not a viable reson to charge climbers an extraordinary fee. So the cost of mount hood was less than finding some lost hiker ?:) Seriously though, I agree that day hikers cost as much as climbers / Alpinist but the extra cost of finding someone on the mountain can be offset with a beacon, rental is cheap.
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drumcorpsguy04
Feb 19, 2007, 5:09 PM
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My question is, why now? Why not before. There were many people who died on Mt. Hood and other mountains for that matter before the incident in December. What makes this group the defining point to make people think that they need to require people to carry beacons on ascents. I honestly think that America is becoming way too overly moderated. What happened to all of our freedoms? Yeah granted we still have more freedoms than some countries but all the laws they try to pass now are just excessive in my opinion.
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greenketch
Feb 19, 2007, 5:16 PM
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It is not resonable to compare one to one. In some excellant studies (some by the state of oregon itself)it is well documented that over 50% of their annual rescue budget is spent rescueing hikers. While 3% is spent on climbers. This is even worse when you add stuff up. Day hikers account for 40%, overnight hikers another 30% hunters, swimmers and such have a huge impact as well. Now on a per rescue basis climbers are spendy but that is due to most climbers being somewhat competant and they tend to self rescue. The big guns only come in when it is real bad. They also tend to be more technical thus specialized helpis required. But, the lower occurance still keeps way less money actually spent. One must also consider that the SAR teams that respond are volunteer. They cost the responsible authority nothing. These crews are typically climbers that are out to help there own. Also the military response is cost free. The various units have a seperate budget item that is to cover it. They will spend that money in some way wether it is in rescue or not. In fact most of these units prefer to do the real deal as opposed to some fabricated drill. The bottom line is the publics perceived risk of our choosen activity creates an altered reality. To my knowledge the only group that costs a lower percentage of the budget is small plane pilots. This is again due to the fact that so many other pilots assist free and they are as well a tight group.
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dingus
Feb 19, 2007, 5:24 PM
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There is a fundamental question at work here: Do we have the right to get lost? It's really that fundamental. Do we as free will adults have the right to disappear, to head off into the white spaces of reality unprepared? Think for a moment all the wonderous things and ideas discovered by those who were lost. Imagine what our world would be like if humans lacked the urge to 'check THAT out!' Maybe a 'right' isn't the correct word, the concrete notion. Perhaps 'duty' is more a reflection of reality. Do we not as humans and dreamers OWE IT to our forefathers? Do we not bestow it upon our children? RISE UP we demand, QUESTION AUTHORITY, DARE TO DREAM! And then we slap a tracking device on it and dial up the NSA. Getting lost appears to be getting lost herself. We are rapidly approaching the vanishing point, beyond which our ability to disappear will itself disappear. We will be in a world where it is impossible to 'get off the grid,' where no matter how hard we try, how deep we burrow, how high we climb, our position will always be available for those with the eyes to see. Somehow this idea does not comfort me. No I think mountaineers are BORN FREE, not the creatures of an accountants balance sheet or a check box on a Loss Prevention form. Regulating as something as fundamental, as God Given I would dare say, as climbing a mountain is a slap in the face to the very spirit that got us where we are. HOW DARE those climbers go up there sans beacons, how THOUGHTLESS they were to endanger their would-be rescuers??? I say GOD BLESS THE MOUNTAINEERS and all the other bloody fools who haven't forgot there is red blood, FREE BLOOD coursing through our veins. Mountaineers, breathe the free air and celebrate the spirit within! But hey, if you have a beacon dude? Turn it on mKay? Cheers DMT
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boymeetsrock
Feb 19, 2007, 5:41 PM
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Well said Dingus. But the fact is that times have changed. Once upon a time those adventures went out to discover REAL unknowns, and if they didn't come back, no one went looking for them, because they were lost in the unknown. Today, if one person gets lost, 200 show up to look for them. We are no longer taking the weight of humanity on our shoulders, bet putting the combined weight of ourselves on them. I'm certainly not interested in having a computer chip implanted in me, but we're talking about a fancy avi beacon, and its for rent, right? Reno makes a great point that such a device would facilitate a more focused effort, which can be worth a lot regarding both $$$ and lives. What success has the European community seen with their backcountry insurance, and why the F haven't we gone that route yet?
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petsfed
Feb 19, 2007, 6:14 PM
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Man, I can't even tell when Dingus is being sarcastic anymore. I gotta get away from this place.
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alexmac
Feb 19, 2007, 7:17 PM
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petsfed wrote: Man, I can't even tell when Dingus is being sarcastic anymore. I gotta get away from this place. Trophy! People, its about allowing someone to find you faster in an accident, nothing more. This whole anti government thing is nothing more than living under the treat of WMD's from Iraq, oh ya thats all in your heads too. Saying you have the right, is only good if it costs no one a cent for you to do it. The latest set of Mt hood people had a beacon and were found quiick enough (seven and a dog). Alex
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greenketch
Feb 19, 2007, 7:24 PM
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Out of the last Hood group they had a couple MLU's the five that were not in trouble were found with one of them. The other three and their dog that had problems had not been located as of the last report I had this morning. This despite having a MLU and a cell. They have been in contact via phone with the rescuers so it shouldn't be long. Isn't it fun the way info moves via news. It's at least as accurate as the telephone game we used to play as kids.
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kevinheiss
Feb 20, 2007, 2:39 AM
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NO that is the straigth forward answer. Honestly, it should be a personal decision and I think the government should take a few steps back and let the people have some kind of freedom. They have better things to deal with then stupid things like this. Kevin
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majid_sabet
Feb 20, 2007, 4:43 AM
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Dingus Get ready, after this recent incident in Hood, these guys are going to stick this law and soon or later Cali is going to follow.
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perp
Feb 20, 2007, 10:00 AM
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For those of you in favor of this new law; why should i be restricted to climbing Mt. Hood? Thousands of people go missing every year, had these been wearing a tracking device they would have been much more easily located. According to your logic, the police shouldn't go looking for you, or at least you should pay the full cost of the investigation if you were to be kidnapped while not wearing a tracking device. Some might argue that there's a big difference here between putting yourself in harms way (climbing) and someone else doing so (the kidnapper). However, to some extent you are always responsible for your own situation (why didn't you stay away from that mountain, why didn't you stay at home with your doors locked and a loaded shotgun in your lap?) Is it right that not following every possible safety-precaution means giving up all your rights to help should the shit hit the fan?
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