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baja_java
Jun 7, 2007, 11:10 PM
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dingus wrote: Anyway, what we were talking about was 'the professional.' This in the context of work. It was my contention (still is as a matter of fact) that to be very successful in the business world, to be a CEO or a president of a big company, to rise to those sorts of positions, one must BE that professional 24/7. You have to live, breathe and work the angles all the time. Nothing escapes inclusion either... what's the point of a golf game or a cocktail party unless some deals can be moved down the field at the same time? I think the reason these folks do what they do is twofold, the first is because that's what they're competitors are doing, and 2ndly, and more importantly, because they love it, or at least think they do. They live for the deal, get a rush closing a big one and they count coup with their houses, cars, vacation homes (they rarely visit) and the jet set lifestyle. There's that word again, lifestyle. See, being the BIG DEAL is a lifestyle, its a series of choices that puts one on a certain path. Everything one does from that point is always in reference to the Big Deal, the thing that makes that peson tick. She doesn't have to live and look (thank god) like Donald Trump to be a Big Deal either, there are a billion ways to get rich I suppose. Now back to climbing and my conversation with Stu. I said, "I can't do that." In reference to the Professionals. "I'm not wired that way. I guess I'm not hungry enough. I don't WANT to be rich. Oh it'd be nice, don't get me wrong, but to GET RICH (legally) one has to be Professional for the most part. HEY! I know there are exceptions, but to be at the head of the line you gotta beat out all those other sonsabitches ya dig? Dog eat dog and all that. NO! I told Stu, "I don't want to run a company. Don't want to manage a division. I don't want to manage other people at all, NO REPORTS! I just wanna do my job, make a decent middle class living, not set myself up for obsolescence in my 50s (may have missed that mark, we'll see...), but I did not, do not and won't sell my soul for work. I'm not that Professional 24/7 kinda guy. When I go home from work? I GO HOME FROM WORK. I leave it all behind. I don' want to worry about making payroll next week, or finding a benefits package our company can afford and our employees can actually use. I don't want to fester on all that work shit every weekend (it intrudes from time to time, I admit it).
interesting description of "the professional." if someone isn't willing to sacrifice all-out as depicted in order achieve "very successfulness," would that person be, like, doomed? what about the fairly successful? or the successful enough? would their corresponding level of sacrifice be more reasonable and thus more accommodating of other pursuits, like climbing, or whatever else? in circa 2007, believe it or not, there's more freedom to have whatever degree of success you like than, say, 50 years ago, or 500 years ago
this caricature of "the professional," doubt you'd want non-climbers to look at climbers in that same way. maybe some people do their job because they enjoy being able to get things done, that that's their idea of success. i've seen more of this than the aforementioned BIG DEALS, at whichever level. some people just want to be a capable person, who's capable of taking care of things and making things happen. pretty modest, in the grand scheme of things. generalizing that as wanting and needing to be a BIG DEAL would be similar to saying that the BIG DEAL climbers only care about scoring the BIG GRADES. sure, some are like that, to whatever degree, in both climbing and business. and yet many are not. i don't really care about any climbing lifestyle or working lifestyle. i just think real people are more interesting than that
Sean
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notch
Jun 8, 2007, 12:02 AM
Post #27 of 86
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Why is it honorable in this culture to sacrifice financial stability for one's wife and children so that one can put themself first and climb? Furthermore, what about the guy working two jobs so he can keep his family fed and mortgage paid? Where does he fit in the black and white world of the climbing lifestyle chaser? Is he a sell out with skewed priorities, too?
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builttospill
Jun 8, 2007, 1:29 AM
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A few things:
Caughtinside: I enjoyed that immensely. Brought me straight back to 1995 or so.
Dingus makes good points as usual. I find it fascinating to consider since I'm at the typical crossroads in my life.....I see myself going Dingus' way of maximizing time off for climbing, but my more pressing concern is whether the girl I'm considering marrying is up for the task of me being gone so much. Either way I think I'll end up being like as he described....working during the week, climbing as much as possible, working for climbing.
Regardless of my own personal decisions that are up in the air, I think that the notion that the old-time climbing lifestyle is inherently selfish, lazy, and based on freeloading is wrong.
As usual, it depends. Sure, some guys living on the dole, living off Daddy's paycheck, living off what they can steal from the Yosemite cafeteria or mooching off their girlfriends are morally guilty and should be termed "freeloaders." But I'd posit that "selfish" is a term that describes all individuals--whether it's the "professional" or CEO, whether it's Notch who seeks financial stability for his wife, or whether it's the guy living in Camp 4. They're all selfish, some just get more glory or respect from different segments of society than others.
Moreover, it is possible to be a "dirtbag" and still have morals or live an ethical lifestyle where you support yourself. I spent a year when I was first starting to climb living in a shit-hole apartment, working VERY part time and skateboarding, running, playing music and climbing as much as I possibly could. My apartment had no furniture except the bed that came with it. I split rent with a friend who was in college. We didn't run the heater all winter (in Utah) in a futile attempt to save some money. In the 11 months I lived there, I worked around 3 of them, and that was part time, 20 hours a week, at a horrible job. I only went about $400 into credit card debt during that time.
$10 a week on food, $150 a month for rent, etc etc. Not a true climbing dirtbag, but a pretty similar lifestyle otherwise, and I didn't sponge off of anybody.
I fully believe that you can be an ethical person regardless of your position in life or chosen path. Those climbers who choose to freeload would be doing the same thing regardless of whether they were climbers--it's their personality or disposition unfortunately.
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cintune
Jun 8, 2007, 2:39 AM
Post #29 of 86
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A lot of good points made here from great perspectives. I decided a long time ago that family and the work to make its experience worthwhile was more important than climbing 24/7. Nothing but smiles for you lot who climb more, better, etc, though. Rock on.
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macherry
Jun 8, 2007, 2:46 AM
Post #30 of 86
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nicely put DMT. one of the better reads here...........couldn't have said it better than myself.
my partner and i have subsribed to less is more and have given up to gain more by living in a mtn. town 5 min. away from the finest skiing ever.
my furniture is old, the house needs work, but god oh god do i get my fair share of powder days!!!
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dan2see
Jun 8, 2007, 3:33 AM
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Dingus, you are my hero and role-model.
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miavzero
Jun 8, 2007, 5:23 AM
Post #34 of 86
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climbing has made my life tolerable, but also destroyed it
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zeke_sf
Jun 8, 2007, 6:16 AM
Post #35 of 86
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miavzero wrote: climbing has made my life tolerable, but also destroyed it
Wow. How has it destroyed your life? Do you look back and find those hours empty? Emptier than simply chasing the allmighty greenback would have left it? I would love to hang out in Monaco being seen while my yacht, Winona Ryder, lies anchored in port, but the magic moments of freedom on the rock my modest investments in gear and time have afforded me make it all seem worthwhile. Maybe you're not talking about money. There's a huge escapist element to climbing as well. I'd like to think climbing makes me a better person, but maybe it just distracts me from noticing the loss of what I could have been had I focused on more conventional goals. Anyhow, I suppose I'm part of that weekend warrior contingent whose modest means don't allow him complete freedom, and whose will isn't strong enough to seize that one hold higher despite it all.
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dingus
Jun 8, 2007, 6:44 AM
Post #36 of 86
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I'll just add this.... keeping on keeping on becomes both easier and harder at once, as you get older.
Easier by way of habit. Er... whaddaya doing this weekend???
DUH!!!1111
Harder, because the compromises pile up, year after year, opportunity after opportunity, till one day you realize climbing is just another ball and chain.
These past 3 years have been tough on me. Shattered ankle, broken neck, stictches in me balls... one fucking thing after another. The net net?
I found that yes, I too could write off climbing, get used to not doing it.
Then one day, BAM! I head out, doing something fun with my mates and its just like I never left.
Its not a reason for superiority. Betwixt you and me I admire many 'professionals.'
Its a reason. That's all. A reason. Its a reason to try and stay in shape. Its a reason to hike into the mountains. Its a reason to face deep seated fears. Its a reason to party with kindred spirits. Its a reason to feel belonging.
Shit, there are BILLIONS of reasons. We could be talking about surfing or fly fishing or friggin origami for christsakes!
But we're not. We're talking about climbing. And me? I've been doing it for 34 years. That's 7 years more than I've known my wife. That's 19 years before my first was born.
If you hook up with a firefighter or an astronaut or a nascar driver, do you expect that person to hang up her spurs just because YOU'RE in the picture?
Anyway, cheers
DMT
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dingus
Jun 8, 2007, 6:45 AM
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Say caught... NICE work and a Sacramento band to boot!
Cheers
DMT
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curt
Jun 8, 2007, 6:52 AM
Post #38 of 86
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dingus wrote: ...It was my contention (still is as a matter of fact) that to be very successful in the business world, to be a CEO or a president of a big company, to rise to those sorts of positions, one must BE that professional 24/7. You have to live, breathe and work the angles all the time. Nothing escapes inclusion either... what's the point of a golf game or a cocktail party unless some deals can be moved down the field at the same time?
Well, I just happen to know a few people who have managed to become "very successful" in business--and still rise to the very top of the climbing world. How about that? Perhaps it isn't such a clear cut either/or choice of lifestyle after all. Still, I can appreciate what yer sayin'...
Curt
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medicus
Jun 8, 2007, 6:53 AM
Post #39 of 86
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Well said.
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zeke_sf
Jun 8, 2007, 7:02 AM
Post #40 of 86
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dingus wrote: I'll just add this.... keeping on keeping on becomes both easier and harder at once, as you get older.
Well, keep on keeping on, Old Dawg! I bet you've got climbing wounds older than me. I too want to play every key on the piano -- not just "Chopsticks."
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dingus
Jun 8, 2007, 7:10 AM
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curt wrote: dingus wrote: ...It was my contention (still is as a matter of fact) that to be very successful in the business world, to be a CEO or a president of a big company, to rise to those sorts of positions, one must BE that professional 24/7. You have to live, breathe and work the angles all the time. Nothing escapes inclusion either... what's the point of a golf game or a cocktail party unless some deals can be moved down the field at the same time? Well, I just happen to know a few people who have managed to become "very successful" in business--and still rise to the very top of the climbing world. How about that? Perhaps it isn't such a clear cut either/or choice of lifestyle after all. Still, I can appreciate what yer sayin'... Curt
Clearly you're the better man in every way curt. I'm sorry for living. Laws knows I've tried to end it all a few times. I can't even do that right.
I'm sorry for breathing, sir. May I have another????
DMT
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yanqui
Jun 8, 2007, 4:14 PM
Post #42 of 86
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dingus wrote: If that is not a life STYLE then I simply don't know what the term means? DMT
Indeed. A life style with the emphasis on STYLE.
Keep on styling it, dingus.
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jdouble
Jun 8, 2007, 4:35 PM
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dingus wrote: Its not a reason for superiority. Betwixt you and me I admire many 'professionals.'
Prepare for drifting here...........
I think we should be careful. People constantly assume everyone else thinks/feels/loves/hates/etc. the same way. In my experience, this is one of our fundamental problems.
"If I get so much pleasure from this activity, they must be crazy if they don't."
"Why in the world would you have kids and get a full time job?"
"Only a surfer knows the feeling."
We constantly label as 'good' or 'bad', when in actuality it's all just 'different'.
End of ramble.
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caughtinside
Jun 8, 2007, 4:52 PM
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jdouble wrote: "Only a surfer knows the feeling."
That is actually true.
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jdouble
Jun 8, 2007, 5:04 PM
Post #45 of 86
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caughtinside wrote: jdouble wrote: "Only a surfer knows the feeling." That is actually true.
But isn't that elitist?
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caughtinside
Jun 8, 2007, 5:06 PM
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jdouble wrote: caughtinside wrote: jdouble wrote: "Only a surfer knows the feeling." That is actually true. But isn't that elitist?
No?
Who cares?
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artm
Jun 8, 2007, 5:15 PM
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caughtinside wrote: jdouble wrote: caughtinside wrote: jdouble wrote: "Only a surfer knows the feeling." That is actually true. But isn't that elitist? No? Who cares?
"Todos Hermanos Del Mar"
(This post was edited by artm on Jun 8, 2007, 5:18 PM)
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camhead
Jun 8, 2007, 5:50 PM
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The climbers whom I admire the most are those who treat it as a hobby or avocation– rather than as a profession– and still manage to climb at very high levels.
Most people will be able to climb hard if they quit everything and migrate from crag to crag. It is much more difficult to climb hard while balancing out a successful career.
Props to John Gill, John Stannard, Mike Anderson, Bil Ramsey, and that old bald guy Curt.
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jdouble
Jun 8, 2007, 6:16 PM
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caughtinside wrote: jdouble wrote: caughtinside wrote: jdouble wrote: "Only a surfer knows the feeling." That is actually true. But isn't that elitist? No? Who cares?
The person who doesn't know the feeling.
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