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majid_sabet
Jun 26, 2007, 4:33 PM
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Continuing from my recent post in I&A about a climber who fell 40+ feet .His newly belayer was using an ATC but somehow, he/she was unable to catch the rope.
Should n00bs use autolocking belay ( like Gri Gri)when belaying a trad climber or use a tube type ( like ATC) ?
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 26, 2007, 6:24 PM)
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climbinwv
Jun 26, 2007, 4:35 PM
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Should you broaden your thread to be "Autolocking Belay Devices" vs. "Tube Style Belay devices" in the hands of nOObs? Not everybody choses a Petzl GriGri or a BD ATC....
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sausalito
Jun 26, 2007, 4:45 PM
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I think the folks that are anti grigri for noobs are misguided. A grigri is not a fool proof device. Nobody has ever claimed otherwise. It has its drawbacks.
However I think it is a good device in single pitch sport situations ESPECIALLY when the leader can rappel down instead of being lowered. Almost every grigri accident or close call I have ever seen has been when someone was being lowered.
Educating the new belayer is critical no matter what device ones chooses but I am personally more comfortable knowing that I have a chance to not deck if all hell breaks loose and my belayer messes up. I will say though that I ALWAYS climb with a reverso or atc and lower myself from the anchors once I am done.
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overlord
Jun 26, 2007, 4:48 PM
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well, the best thing for a noob is an atc (or similar non-lockinb/blocking device) and training.
auto lockers/blockers and little training tend to result in bad belaying.
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scotchie
Jun 26, 2007, 5:09 PM
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Completely agreed. And have someone back up the belay until it is confirmed that the noob is doing it right.
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jakedatc
Jun 26, 2007, 5:09 PM
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oh please.. do you call it Velcro or "hook and loop closure system" ? for once i think folks will know what Majid is talking about.
I'd pick a noob with an ATC over one with a Gri Gri.. my reason is this.
Never take the brake hand off the rope = will almost always have SOME friction.
gri gri. lead belaying.. having to keep the cam open to feed, large size is cumbersome. lowering when people panic they tend to pull harder (ie the handle/gas pedal) instead of let go
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overlord
Jun 26, 2007, 5:14 PM
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also, you need to unlock the grigri while lowering and that is not the case with an ATC
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reg
Jun 26, 2007, 5:32 PM
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n00b = tube ( and glove and possibly back up )
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climbinwv
Jun 26, 2007, 5:34 PM
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Neither....i use shoe laces. Velcro makes an annoying noise and shoe laces come in many pretty colors.
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richardvg03
Jun 26, 2007, 5:36 PM
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I use to belay with a regular blackdiamond atc... the cheapest one. My partner weighs around 190-200 lbs and the rope would slip so I went out and bought the blackdiamond "guide" which has teeth and it works great for me! The rope doesn't slip at all.
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sausalito
Jun 26, 2007, 6:09 PM
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Not my experience at all. It seems that many in this thread agree with me at least in part. Which is lowering is the sketchiest part when someone is belaying you with a grigri, which is why I lower myself. Shit happens. There is no better system. I like the grigri for single pitch sport climbing if the belayer does not have a preference. it goes without saying they need to know how to use it.
I do question the logic in stating an atc is safer when used properly. They are both equally as safe when used properly. Thats not the issue. The issue is if someone freaks and makes a HUMAN error which system is more likely to result in me not hitting the ground?
The accident that started this thread was an ATC. I have witnessed two full decks as a direct result of belayer error. One was a girl who was paying attention but her hand was a little close to where the rope feeds when the leader fell, her hand got pinched in the tube style device, she let go..... deck. her hands were the worst injury luckily. The other was in a gym and a guy was being lowered on a grigri. The girl lowering him freaked and pulled back instead of locking off and/or letting go. I believed he broke an ankle.
Like I said I use a reverso when I belay people and I always rap myself unless the situation demands otherwise, which is rare in single pitch sport. I dont make it a habit of getting everyone I know to climb but the few folks I have taught to belay I have showed them how to use both. I have also made sure that they understand the physics involved. When I was on lead with these folks they used a grigri. More than once I took a lead fall on a relatively new belayer who was using a grigri. I never hit the ground and never came close.
To simply state the best thing is for X when it is used properly is completely missing the point. Both devices demand that you use them properly.
At the end of the day the person on lead should be comfortable with the belayer no matter what the device. I know where you all are coming from though. I didnt get a grigri until 2004 after years of arguing the same points. Then I realized that there were benefits of an autolocking belay device especially for single pitch sport.
Again lowering is a different beast. I really dont like many folks lowering me on anything but a grigri is especially precarious for that task for reasons mentioned throughout the thread.
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coastal_climber
Jun 26, 2007, 6:12 PM
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It's the user's error, not the fact which belay device is being used. If the belayer is properly trained, then there is no excuse for error.
>Cam
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majid_sabet
Jun 26, 2007, 6:20 PM
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If I had to take a n00b to belay me as the last person on earth, I would let them belay me off autolocking cause at least there is 0.1% chance they could lock that rope.
I mean not directly by n00b but just by act of god and some knot that may come along and jams in to autolocking device while rope is flying in to it.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 26, 2007, 6:22 PM)
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psprings
Jun 26, 2007, 6:22 PM
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A good sum up, Sausalito... well put.
As a leader, if someone is relatively new to climbing and I'm not convinced that they're programmed to "never take their brake hand off of the rope", I ask them to use my Grigri (that I got as a gift a year ago... had only used ATC/autoblockers up till then).
The reason that I ask them to use a Grigri, is that if you were to ask me what puts my mind more at rest when I'm leading, I'm going to say grigri... for sport or trad. And yes, errors do happen with a grigri, no question about it. I think it's much less than errors with an ATC, but that's not a documented number as far as I know, just anecdotal evidence and hearsay...
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psprings
Jun 26, 2007, 6:30 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: If I had to take a n00b to belay me as the last person on earth, I would let them belay me off autolocking cause at least there is 0.1% chance they could lock that rope.
Are you saying you want them to use a Grigri?
I'd rather have the potential to be short-roped when clipping or climbing and fall as opposed to potentially be dropped all the way to the ground. This is just my rationale and my own bottom line for being belayed by a noob. Personally, I feel better if a non-noob belays me with a grigri too, because people DO take their hands off the rope, even experienced climbers...
Again, ground falls can happen with either atc or grigri with improper use, but generally you hear more stories of groundfalls with an ATC than a grigri.
That's why I've started liking a grigri.
Also, the biggest danger that I've heard for grigri use is when the belayer holds the cam back with the brake hand so they can pay rope out without it locking on them. People hold it from camming, the leader falls, the belayer grabs it tighter, cam does not lock up, leader hits the ground. This scenario has happened and it does take some training to get the right system for holding the grigri, feeding out rope, and locking off to get it right. I learned a new technique that I like much better than how I was doing it. Fantastic and much safer. But it's certainly not second nature to belay with that technique: I needed someone to show me and it felt awkward when I started using it.
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psprings
Jun 26, 2007, 6:39 PM
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coastal_climber wrote: It's the user's error, not the fact which belay device is being used. If the belayer is properly trained, then there is no excuse for error. >Cam
Definately a true statement. The question is: do we assume that however much experience a climber has, that they will never let go of the brake end of the rope?
I think it's inevitable that regardless or level of experience, people make mistakes. The question would be, in light of those mistakes, does choice of device make a difference to compensate for that moment of error/incompetence?
I remember a story from Climbing where 2 guys were climbing in the Palisades. A guy knocked a block off and fell 30+ ft. The belayer let go of the rope as he was running from the block. As it turns out, letting go of the rope wouldn't have mattered, but the question remains... could device choice make a difference in some of these accidents? That one time that you accidentally do take your hand off the rope, subconsciously or for whatever the reason?
I think different people will prioritize in different ways... I think it's probably statistically less likely to be injured while being belayed by a grigri, but that still doesn't mean that you'll never get hurt by operator error... there is no 100% regardless of device... but I think a grigri in most cases would reduce your chances of drop-age.
edit for grammar and stuff :D
(This post was edited by psprings on Jun 26, 2007, 6:43 PM)
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epoch
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Jun 26, 2007, 6:40 PM
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overlord wrote: well, the best thing for a noob is an atc (or similar non-lockinb/blocking device) and training. auto lockers/blockers and little training tend to result in bad belaying.
I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. The device used is not the problem in these situations. It is the training (or lack of) that ultimately causes accidents. I have, from time to time, stopped climbers and offered a "different" way of belaying because thier fundamental skill was definately not safe. Teaching from an auto-assisted-locking device, in my opinion, has more of a chance to teach poor habits to new belayers.
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shimanilami
Jun 26, 2007, 6:49 PM
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No one has yet offered the counter-argument to this oft revisited topic, so I will ...
You're nuts if you think an ATC is safer than a Gri-Gri, for the simple reason that the "default" for a Gri-Gri is to lock off, while the "default" for an ATC is to drop the climber. The Gri-Gri is a bit more complicated to use, especially for retarded, untrainable noobs, but that is why you make sure that your belayer isn't a retarded, untrained noob. (Frankly, if I don't have confidence in my belayer, it doesn't matter what device he's got. He's not belaying me.)
As for taking your brake hand off the rope, why would anyone do this with a Gri Gri more often than an ATC? I never remove my brake hand brake from the rope when I use a Gri Gri. There's no reason to, whether you're feeding rope out, taking rope in, or lowering. Isn't that the first rule of belaying, after all? Just get a little training and practice, and it's not that hard.
The exception to the rule, IMO, is when you're using skinny lines (<10mm), where the Gri-Gri cannot provide adequate friction.
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sausalito
Jun 26, 2007, 6:50 PM
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how so? The statement you quoted is kind of dumb. Both devices are safe when used properly. You and the person you quoted are making the theoretical choice between someone who has proper training with an atc vs. a person that was trained improperly with a grigri. Well no shit I would choose the atc in that scenario.
I am assuming proper training with both devices. In that case I choose the grigri for a new person.... someone with experience can decide for themselves how they want to belay someone.
In short though it is kind of illogical to just assume bad teaching with a device like a grigri. Its not like they are super complex. I think all things equal it would take about the same amount of time to teach someone to use both devices properly. It really is simple physics in both cases.
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j_ung
Jun 26, 2007, 7:40 PM
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In the hands of an inexperienced belayer there is no such thing as a safe belay device. Assume otherwise at your peril.
(Sweet. I totally used the word, "peril" in an actual sentence.)
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cracklover
Jun 26, 2007, 7:40 PM
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psprings wrote: Definately a true statement. The question is: do we assume that however much experience a climber has, that they will never let go of the brake end of the rope?
Well, as a matter of fact, I think experience has a lot to do with it. I think very experienced ATC users simply never let go of the brake hand. While almost all very experienced gri-gri users sometimes take their brake hand off the brake strand. It's a matter of bio-feedback loops. When the gri-gri holds every fall, 1000 times in a row, you don't expect it to fail the 1001st time. If, however, on the 1001st time, you've threaded it backwards, or there's a pebble in the device, or the climber was sitting on the rope, but momentarily unweights it, and then sits back down... down they go.
But that's not the worst thing. The worst thing is when the experienced gri-gri belayer, who's had the gri-gri catch a 1000 falls, teaches the noob how to use it. "It's foolproof", says the master. The fool, however, is about to prove the master wrong. Seen it happen. Not pretty.
GO
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paulraphael
Jun 26, 2007, 7:52 PM
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Most of us agree that both work when used properly, so the issue is which is most likely to get used properly.
The gri-gri's autolocking ability is a comforting feature, but it makes safe lowering extremely unintuitive. After using both a lot, and teaching beginners to use both, I'm personally more comfortable having a noob use an ATC. Or preferably, a tube that provides a stronger catch, like a Trango Jaws or ATC XP.
There's a danger with autolockers that you might be tempted to spend less time training someone. Not the device's fault, of course. But I see this a lot and have been guilty of it myself.
And the: difference between autolocking and autoblocking is not academic; they're totally different in application, and confusing the two could be a bad thing.
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Valarc
Jun 26, 2007, 7:54 PM
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Here's a novel thought - if you're lead climbing and no one experienced is available to belay you - don't climb
A new climber shouldn't be belaying someone on sport lead, let alone trad. Let someone belay on toprope until they've developed a rock-solid habit of locking off as a matter of instinct, no matter what device they use, before you get on the sharp end.
Your life is too valuable to put it in the hands of someone who might make a stupid mistake, regardless of the widgets and gadgets you give them.
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duckbuster_13
Jun 26, 2007, 8:02 PM
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j_ung wrote: (Sweet. I totally used the word, "peril" in an actual sentence.)
"WHAT is your favorite color?"
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