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funnelator
Oct 4, 2007, 3:17 PM
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If you are willing to go down to Millbrook what are you doing whining about crowds in the Trapps and Nears? If you choose to join the crowds on the weekends enjoy them for what they are or move along. Proselytizing about what a stud you are and what noobs everyone else is really isn't going to do anything for anyone, including you.
And oh you ice climb!!!! Oooooooooohhhh!!
We're so impressed. 
Most of the longtime badass gunks climbers, of which you are not one, are remarkably friendly and welcoming of others. New Jerseyites who talk about beating people up and spray about what hardons they are, give the Gunks more of a bad name than the crowds.
Maybe you were joking when you were threatening and spraying. If so I retract the above.
(This post was edited by funnelator on Oct 4, 2007, 10:03 PM)
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jgloporto
Oct 4, 2007, 3:36 PM
Post #102 of 202
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funnelator wrote: If you are willing to go down to Millbrook what are you doing whining about crowds in the Trapps and Nears? If you choose to join the crowds on the weekends enjoy them for what they are or move along. Proselyitizing about what a stud you are and what noobs everyone else is really isn't going to do anything for anyone, including you. And oh you ice climb!!!! Oooooooooohhhh!! We're so impressed. Most of the longtime badass gunks climbers, of which you are not one, are remarkably friendly and welcoming of others. New Jerseyites who feel a need to beat people up and spray about what hardons they are, give the Gunks more of a bad name than the crowds. Maybe you were joking when you were threatening and spraying. If so I retract the above.
First off, you obviously don't know me since nothing I have ever written on this site should be taken seriously.
[rant]
Now I'll digress, what happened to that Canadian is an atrocity and it's half joking, half serious when I say that type of shit should not be tolerated.
I do in fact manage to find great routes everytime I'm there because there are classics every five feet, Millbrook being the biggest gem up there. I've never once had a problem with anybody up there.
So, on the one hand, I could easily advise people to just tread a little further and in effect tolerate inconsiderate shit from obnoxious assholes but how does 'well that's just the way it is these days' help anybody.
I didn't say everyone are n00bs, new climbers are more than welcome and there are innumerable classic routes that could be a testpiece for any new climber. In fact, I can't think of a better place on the planet for new climbers to learn this sport and learn the traditions and ethics associated with it.
Assholes, however are assholes. End of fucking story. We are not talking about new climbers versus experienced leaders, or topropers versus lead climbers. We're talking about assholes. And assholes are plague on this entire planet.
And I'm not the one proselyitizing on this thread. Maybe you should read this thing from the beginning instead of jumping in at the end.
[/rant]
Did I forget anything? Oh yeah, STFU n00b! (not to be taken seriously.)
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funnelator
Oct 4, 2007, 3:43 PM
Post #103 of 202
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The Canadian thing is an atrocity. But tolerance must be practiced. It's kind of like EB (expedition behavior). In close quarters, with people you may not know very well, under trying circumstances, you have to give people the benefit of the doubt, and compromise, and relax, rather than allow yourself to become intolerant.
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jgloporto
Oct 4, 2007, 3:48 PM
Post #104 of 202
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funnelator wrote: The Canadian thing is an atrocity. But tolerance must be practiced. It's kind of like EB (expedition behavior). In close quarters, with people you may not know very well, under trying circumstances, you have to give people the benefit of the doubt, and compromise, and relax, rather than allow yourself to become intolerant.
Yeah, but we are not talking about the South Col on Everest.
If we all have to share space, we have to insist on common courtesy, not chaos.
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funnelator
Oct 4, 2007, 3:57 PM
Post #105 of 202
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Your idea of common courtesy might be entirely differrent from someone else's though. That's why tolerance is just as appropriate here as it is on an expedition.
I'm off to look for a few discourteous (in my view anyway) Jerseyites up on the ridge, to feed through the chipper. Zero tolerance of intolerant self righteous Jerseyites practiced here.
Have fun Joe. I'm just messin' with you now.
Peace Out.
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jgloporto
Oct 4, 2007, 4:12 PM
Post #106 of 202
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funnelator wrote: Your idea of common courtesy might be entirely differrent from someone else's though. That's why tolerance is just as appropriate here as it is on an expedition. I'm off to look for a few discourteous (in my view anyway) Jerseyites up on the ridge, to feed through the chipper. Zero tolerance of intolerant self righteous Jerseyites practiced here. Have fun Joe. I'm just messin' with you now. Peace Out.
Ah, ethical relativism... Maybe we can please 'em all.
I'll be on the ridge, smoking, cursing and wearing my 'I Heart NJ' tee shirt... You couldn't possibly miss me.
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core
Oct 4, 2007, 4:51 PM
Post #107 of 202
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mmmm, that reminds me...
When are we going to talk about smoking belayers? I love them!
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jgloporto
Oct 4, 2007, 5:07 PM
Post #108 of 202
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core wrote: mmmm, that reminds me... When are we going to talk about smoking belayers? I love them!
Guilty as charged.
I've never left a butt or any other garbage anywhere in the Preserve.
You don't like it? Go to China you communist.
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core
Oct 4, 2007, 5:18 PM
Post #109 of 202
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I guess we're drifting...downwind...
I don't smoke and I don't appreciate the smell of it. I do, however appreciate smokers that (when asked) stop smoking or move somewhere else. Smoker don't always seem that responsive AND it seems that you always have to bring it to their attention.
Do smokers usually assume that others want to smell their cigarettes? It doest' make a lot of sense to me when the dude on the belay ledge just upwind of me lights up and neither of us can move from our anchor...
I don't know what it is, but my last few Gunks visits have been stained by cigarette stench.
sniiiiiiiiiiiff...ahhhhhhhhh...cough
(This post was edited by core on Oct 4, 2007, 5:22 PM)
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jgloporto
Oct 4, 2007, 5:29 PM
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core wrote: I guess we're drifting...downwind... I don't smoke and I don't appreciate the smell of it. I do, however appreciate smokers that (when asked) stop smoking or move somewhere else. It doesn't always happen AND it seems that you always have to bring it to their attention. Do smokers usually assume that others want to smell their cigarettes? It doest' make a lot of sense to me when the dude on the belay ledge just upwind of me lights up and neither of us can move from our anchor... I don't know what it is, but my last few Gunks visits have been stained by cigarette stench. sniiiiiiiiiiiff...ahhhhhhhhh...cough
Most smokers assume that they are not allowed to smoke anywhere these days... I think at this point the law is that you are only allowed to smoke in your house, under a blanket with the lights out.
I actually don't smoke near the cliffs, though the parking lot is fair game in my opinion. Maybe it's because I'm a smoker, but I have never noticed the smell of smoke outside of occassionally on the undercliff trail.
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retr2327
Oct 4, 2007, 5:43 PM
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Yes, it's because you're a smoker. Smokers are definitely less sensitive to the smell. As a non-smoker, hardly a weekend day at the Gunks goes by without my noticing cigarette smoke. And I'm not a fan (of cig smoke), but I think funnelator has the right idea: within reasonable limits, try to live and let live.
Back to the thread: the best way to enjoy the Gunks nowadays is to reconcile yourself to the fact that it's just not going to be a wilderness experience. Be prepared to be friendly and sociable, and try to enjoy your fellow climbers, rather than being constantly irritated by the fact that it's not like it used to be. Usually, being cooperative and willing to get along works out well for all.
That said, there are definitely some assholes, like the group that the Canadian ran into. If sweet reason doesn't work, and the victim does not, for whatever reason, believe force is the best option, what other options exist? Would a ranger back up the accepted ethic as quoted in Dick Williams' book? Any official preserve policy on this?
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rgold
Oct 4, 2007, 5:47 PM
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What I really hate is smoking topropers who leave their vicious dogs tied up at the base of the climb, spreading their gear over half an acre of othewise pristine forest real estate, who cover the climb itself with tickmarks, trundle holds they consider loose and therefore dangerous, and leave their ropes hanging for a fortnight or more.
I don't know why, these guys just rub me the wrong way.
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shockabuku
Oct 4, 2007, 5:48 PM
Post #113 of 202
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core wrote: I guess we're drifting...downwind... I don't smoke and I don't appreciate the smell of it. I do, however appreciate smokers that (when asked) stop smoking or move somewhere else. Smoker don't always seem that responsive AND it seems that you always have to bring it to their attention. Do smokers usually assume that others want to smell their cigarettes? It doest' make a lot of sense to me when the dude on the belay ledge just upwind of me lights up and neither of us can move from our anchor... I don't know what it is, but my last few Gunks visits have been stained by cigarette stench. sniiiiiiiiiiiff...ahhhhhhhhh...cough
Fart back.
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core
Oct 4, 2007, 5:53 PM
Post #114 of 202
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rgold wrote: What I really hate is smoking topropers who leave their vicious dogs tied up at the base of the climb, spreading their gear over half an acre of othewise pristine forest real estate, who cover the climb itself with tickmarks, trundle holds they consider loose and therefore dangerous, and leave their ropes hanging for a fortnight or more. I don't know why, these guys just rub me the wrong way.
Oh? and chippers and bolters are ok? Must they be chipping on lead?
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jgloporto
Oct 4, 2007, 5:57 PM
Post #115 of 202
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rgold wrote: What I really hate is smoking topropers who leave their vicious dogs tied up at the base of the climb, spreading their gear over half an acre of othewise pristine forest real estate, who cover the climb itself with tickmarks, trundle holds they consider loose and therefore dangerous, and leave their ropes hanging for a fortnight or more. I don't know why, these guys just rub me the wrong way.
Ummm... "rub me the wrong way" is just not the expression that comes to mind here. Cluttering the undercliff trail, taking over lines for excessive periods of time, tickmarks etc., and crag dogs are just unacceptable (sorry happiegirl, some crag dogging is okay but there has to be a limit. Leave the rotweiler at home).
Rich,
Help me sort this out. Not withstanding the Dick Williams quote cited earlier, I always understood that topropers needed to yield to lead climbers. I have no problem with people toproping but the nature of toproping clogs lines up. Since when is this 'first come, first serve' thing the rule? I could see that being the rule for lead climbers competing for the same line...
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jgloporto
Oct 4, 2007, 5:59 PM
Post #116 of 202
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core wrote: rgold wrote: What I really hate is smoking topropers who leave their vicious dogs tied up at the base of the climb, spreading their gear over half an acre of othewise pristine forest real estate, who cover the climb itself with tickmarks, trundle holds they consider loose and therefore dangerous, and leave their ropes hanging for a fortnight or more. I don't know why, these guys just rub me the wrong way. Oh? and chippers and bolters are ok? Must they be chipping on lead?
Huh?? Who the hell is chipping and bolting in the Gunks?
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core
Oct 4, 2007, 6:29 PM
Post #117 of 202
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jgloporto wrote: core wrote: rgold wrote: What I really hate is smoking topropers who leave their vicious dogs tied up at the base of the climb, spreading their gear over half an acre of othewise pristine forest real estate, who cover the climb itself with tickmarks, trundle holds they consider loose and therefore dangerous, and leave their ropes hanging for a fortnight or more. I don't know why, these guys just rub me the wrong way. Oh? and chippers and bolters are ok? Must they be chipping on lead? Huh?? Who the hell is chipping and bolting in the Gunks?
sigh...Weren't you were just talking yourself up as the guy from jersey with a sense of humor?
So....Top roping! I'm setting up a TR on Traverse of the Clods for some n00bs this weekend (from the cliff top).
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jgloporto
Oct 4, 2007, 6:38 PM
Post #118 of 202
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core wrote: jgloporto wrote: core wrote: rgold wrote: What I really hate is smoking topropers who leave their vicious dogs tied up at the base of the climb, spreading their gear over half an acre of othewise pristine forest real estate, who cover the climb itself with tickmarks, trundle holds they consider loose and therefore dangerous, and leave their ropes hanging for a fortnight or more. I don't know why, these guys just rub me the wrong way. Oh? and chippers and bolters are ok? Must they be chipping on lead? Huh?? Who the hell is chipping and bolting in the Gunks? sigh...Weren't you were just talking yourself up as the guy from jersey with a sense of humor? So....Top roping! I'm setting up a TR on Traverse of the Clods for some n00bs this weekend (from the cliff top).
I didn't say it was a very good sense of humor...
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curt
Oct 5, 2007, 4:17 AM
Post #119 of 202
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piton wrote: curt wrote: funnelator wrote: piton wrote: funnelator wrote: Someone mentioned there are many well protected climbs here at grades up to 12. Wind that back down to 10 and it's right on. There are very few well protected 11s here at the Gunks if you exclude Skytop, which is closed. Even fewer 12s. i think there are many also. 11s and up, here at the Gunks, are what most consider "necky". People leading trad at that grade here will sort it out for themselves no matter our disagreement. I'm getting sweaty palms just thinking about some of the 11s. More power to you Piton if you think they are well protected. funnelator, Piton likes to pretend he's a hard man. Rich Goldstone, I am quite certain, will agree with you--since he and I have had that exact discussion before. Curt curt maybe for a 10 climber like you the 11 and 12's are scary w/ busting 10 R moves. go back to drinking your whiskey you bitter old ass here are 4 well protected 11's just at the slime wall alone: April showers, Golden showers (5.8 if you are 6'1" or taller), Comedy 3 acts, and Rich Goldstone's route The Stand. do i need to continue btw i far from a hard man. there are days i like to top rope
I'm a bitter old ass? Please stop sending me PMs like this, OK?
piton wrote: you shut the fuck up asshole you have no fucking clue do you. grow a sack you stupid shit for brains
My comment must have hit a little too close to home, eh? Fucking anonymous wannabe. Sounds like you have a screw or two loose.
Curt
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pmyche
Oct 5, 2007, 2:53 PM
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BradP
Oct 5, 2007, 3:05 PM
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pmyche wrote: So, stop toproping, but... BradP wrote: Most of all climb safe. Fabulous = D
Are we now unable to lead safely having lost our lead mentality on account of too much top roping?
I haven't.
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wanderlustmd
Oct 5, 2007, 3:14 PM
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BradP wrote: pmyche wrote: So, stop toproping, but... BradP wrote: Most of all climb safe. Fabulous = D Are we now unable to lead safely having lost our lead mentality on account of too much top roping? I haven't.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...the%20gunks;#1589317
By no means meant to be a generalization, but this guy probably should have been TRing.
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Dillbag
Oct 5, 2007, 3:17 PM
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Or... Perhaps following... Or... Maybe just climbing something easier with nice stances to place gear... The gunks after all is famous for those sorts of climbs!
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rgold
Oct 5, 2007, 4:09 PM
Post #124 of 202
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In reply to: Help me sort this out. Not withstanding the Dick Williams quote cited earlier, I always understood that topropers needed to yield to lead climbers. I have no problem with people toproping but the nature of toproping clogs lines up. Since when is this 'first come, first serve' thing the rule? I could see that being the rule for lead climbers competing for the same line...
In the absence of any laws, there is what should be and what is. And what is is what we have to live with. The world is full of self-centered inconsiderate people who think only of their own immediate gratification, and some of them have taken up climbing. When they clog routes with ropes they aren't even using, or leave ropes hanging and continually invite new arrivals to use them, they violate standards of common decency and deserve to be chastised.
Lets not forget that there are plenty of amicable top-rope/leader interactions in which both parties reach an arrangement that leaves no one pissed off.
And lets not forget too that a party trying to lead a route in traditional style can use up every bit as much time as a party of top-ropers, even more.
When it comes to top-ropers yielding to leaders, this is less a matter of common decency than a vision of what climbing is supposed to be about, and it is pretty obvious that not everyone shares this vision. Although I applaud Dick for the comments in his introduction that attempt to communicate previously shared values to a new generation of climbers, I can see little reason or hope, in a crowded environment now populated by many climbers with no sense of, interest in, or respect for tradition, that such principles as "leader priority" would carry any weight whatsoever.
On the other hand, first-come first-served is pretty basic, and even someone fresh from the gym understands it. It may not be in the best tradition, but it is about all we can expect.
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freezorburn
Oct 5, 2007, 4:39 PM
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wanderlustmd wrote: There is nothing wrong with TRing a route....hogging them is one thing. But a person can climb in whatever style they choose, as long as they aren't altering the rock, etc.
Ditto!
WTF who cares? Just don't hog the route! And I believe you should offer your top rope set up to anyone who wants to try it.
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