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dingus
Dec 7, 2007, 3:52 AM
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Hexes played a role in the development of sport climbing in America.
Consider:
Ron Kauk discovered the Separate Reality Crack
after doing the FA of Tales of Power, which he led using passive pro.
Seperate Reality presented a challenge - how to hang out long enough to either bang pins or place hexes in the hand crack out the roof. The game was clean climbing so I doubt pins were seriously considered.
The roof isn't thick and the crack splits it to the top. So Kauk laid down on the slab and preplaced a couple hexes with long slings that hung down from above through the roof crack to hang out the bottom. He then went back down and led it through for the FA. Bachar and others said the lead was tainted.
Jardine was next and Kauk once told a tale about watching Jardine on an attempt at a bottom up lead of Separate Reality with these new fangled secret devices he'd used to slay Crimson Cringe.
Jardine led out, placing cams as he went. He eventualy sagged onto a piece, ushering in the new wave concept of working a route, a well developed sport climbing tactic.
Kauk was amazed at both the cams and the hang doggin. He was put off by the non-trad ways of Jardine but clearly he evolved considering his subsequent sport climbing achievements.
But back in the late 70s hexes were the state of the art and the limitations of the gear itself were an obstacle to progressively harder routes.
Friends changed all that and changed it fast.
Its not so much being able to place them without thought. Personally I think cams take a lot of thought. Mine seem to anyway.
But they can be fast, and they fit in places where nuts don't.
Anyway, interesting conjunction of events there on Separate Reality and a good name for the route. Hexes, cams, hang dogging, working a route, ground up, top down, trad climber sends some of the hardest sport routes on the planet, Jardine gave up climbing because it no longer challenged him.
Weird. Maybe there was a hex on them all?
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Dec 7, 2007, 4:01 AM)
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alpinerockfiend
Dec 7, 2007, 4:11 AM
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That little bit of history about Tales of Power was unknown to me and the most interesting thing I've read on this site in quite some time.
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automated
Dec 7, 2007, 4:59 AM
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i like big hexes cause the are heavy enough to hold all my papers down on my desk. even if there's a fan on or something. and they really don't roll around at all -- cause they're hexagonal. i also once put paper clips in one, which worked great until i forgot it was a hex and picked it up. the paper clips went everywhere. what a mess!
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evanwish
Dec 7, 2007, 6:02 AM
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i llike them because if i'm in a semi-good stance and there's a good placement for the hex i'll use the hex first to save the cams for later at the crux when i need to place-clip-and-go quickly.
i hate that feeling of placing one when all pumped out and thinking i really should have placed the hex first and saved the cam.
pretty much as a rule for me on most of my routes is that the bottom is mainly passive and the top is usually all cams.
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angry
Dec 7, 2007, 7:05 AM
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onceahardman wrote: angry: My highest personal number was old-school trad 11b, on wires, cams, and even a hex. On-sight. (not your "redpoint" poorer style). It was my highest number. But it was not my hardest climb by any stretch.
Not too shabby. Do you really want me to tell you that I've taken to warming up on routes at least that hard because I just can't get the blood moving below that?
Or do you want me to tell you that in the last month I've onsighted (though I don't look down on someone's redpoint) a half dozen trad routes (and yes, I place passive gear if needed) a full number grade harder than your best?
In reply to: If you are really that great
I'm not great, I just don't settle.
In reply to: try a trip to Germany, England, or even New England, and do a 1970's 5.11, using unwired stoppers and hexes for pro, and EB's on your feet. Match the first ascensionist's gear.
I have always wanted to do some gritstone climbing and some barefoot knot wedging. Don't confuse me for someone who wouldn't enjoy such a thing.
In reply to: THEN tell me how you "speak for the advancement of crack climbing." You have advanced nothing. You carry your courage in your rucksack.
If you knew me, you'd know that I have no courage. I'm a pussy (errr scrotum, sorry wallress) I shitz pantz in fear frequently. I shake. I bitch about about gear, I get the rope behind my leg, and I just might sob a little.
I climb hard because I won't accept anything less from myself. It's got nothing to do with some sense of courage I feel from placing gear invented in '78 instead of '70
BTW, I whipped like 4 times today before I figured out an over bolted 35 foot 11a.
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badsanta
Dec 7, 2007, 7:32 AM
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They are the cheapest medium to large sized pro. This statement is made by someone that is in denial: "climbing a route with passive gear is inherently more rewarding than using cams" BS!
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angry
Dec 7, 2007, 7:39 AM
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erick wrote: I think it speaks for the level of personal enjoyment that someone gets out of their climbing though. Some people are bored with popping pro with little or no challenge. Others are bored with routes that have little or no technical challenge for them. It depends which challenge you personally prefer facing and conquering, and neither is more glorious than the other in my opinion.
Erick, you bring up a goddamn excellent point. It is also a point that has never ceased to baffle me.
I could go to the local trad crag and climb the same damn thing over and over. In fact, I can give you the first and last name and phone number of many a climber who does just that. Then there's the all passive ascent. Then the tricam ascent. Then the winter ascent. If we're feeling bold we get the winter passive tricam ascent. It's like wicked and shit.
This doesn't change the fact that they are on the same route over and over. It also doesn't change the fact that within a 10 minute walk in ANY direction there's dozens of route of all sort of grades and styles that they've only heard of. In Amerika, we have the option of climbing a different route now and again.
In the old days, the burnout known as Kalcario would talk about trad climbing having little to no challenge left for him. The answer to this, same as the answer to sport, bouldering, or ice, is to climb harder routes. That is what baffles me. The perpetual 10b climber. Or 12q. It don't matter. The climber who gives himself an arbitrary ceiling and will not even attempt to surpass it. They get so dialed at whatever grade they climb that they are bored.
Whatever. The aesthetics of a route break down in 3 ways. This list is in order.
1) The most important aesthetic is kinethetic. The beauty of the body in space. The movement, the thinking, the creativity of the body and brain in a smooth carnal almost sexual flow. If you haven't experienced this, I pity you.
2) The secondary importance. The visual line. Does it look gorgeous from the ground. Does staring at that line make you drool? Are you both scared and aroused just to see the thing? That's a visually appealing route.
3) Of third place importance. The creativity to place pro and the mental strength to do what needs to be done even if the pro isn't good.
#3 isn't marginal and can add a lot to an otherwise bland route. Don't confuse this with a truly good line folks.
Why add #3 to a route when there's so many routes with so much #1 and #2 to give? (the joke possibilities are endless).
I've placed hexes hundreds of times. I'm probably one of the only ones on this thread who's motherfucking whipped on one (not to be confused with whipped). I've alse ripped them, cracked my head, and swore I believed in a hex shaped god at times. Still I say their time is passed. Let the old things like Dingus and hexes be put down.
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norushnomore
Dec 7, 2007, 11:07 AM
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Angry, so would you call climbing a sport or not?
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dingus
Dec 7, 2007, 1:18 PM
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Hey!!! You may be a good climber but you're still a skinny shit. I could crush you like a big angry.... like a bug.
Cheers motherfucker!
Haha
DNT
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wanderlustmd
Dec 7, 2007, 2:45 PM
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Good comments Angry.
angry wrote: That is what baffles me. The perpetual 10b climber. Or 12q. It don't matter. The climber who gives himself an arbitrary ceiling and will not even attempt to surpass it. They get so dialed at whatever grade they climb that they are bored.
I don't climb hard enough to get philisophical, but I will anyway.
I think it's because some people are afraid of reaching their potential. By staying at a "respectable" level (say solid 5.10), they still have the safe cocoon of knowing they could climb harder, but don't have to. If they pushed it an maxed out at 11b, game over. They've lost the "what's my potential aspect of climbing."
Nevermind that everyone can surpass a given plateau. But you see what I'm getting at.
Others might be a afraid of the mental commitments to climbing harder. Less security, falling more, etc. I was in that category myself for a while. It's a journey. Maybe the folks you speak of will eventually get bored enough to try something harder. You can always get better.
Dingus,
Did Jardine really quit climbing due to lack of challege??! I could be mistaken, but I read somewhere that it came out that he filched the design for friends from the Lowe bros. and caught some flak for it. Any truth?
FWIW, there have been a few times when I think "wow, wish I had a nice big hex for this slot." but not often enough to carry them. I'm a nut/cam/sometimes tricam man.
Good thread!
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dingus
Dec 7, 2007, 3:07 PM
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That story is better told by someone else. But the way I understand it is Greg Lowe showed Jardine a protype of a retractable cam design. Using the idea of SLCD Jardine came up with the initial and refined designs of Friends.
The Lowe clan held a patent on the whole retractable cam idea. They settled out of court for an undisclosed amount, I once read.
DMT
ps. Yes Jardone said in an interview (the one where he proposed a 5.10 'mixed' route up the Nose on El Cap, by mixed he meant adding bolt on holds to make it a 5.10 EVERYMAN'S ROUTE.
Anyway, he said he exhausted the potential climbing held for him and he moved on. Something about always pushing his limits. Anyway, word.
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dingus
Dec 7, 2007, 3:42 PM
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wanderlustmd wrote: I think it's because some people are afraid of reaching their potential. By staying at a "respectable" level (say solid 5.10), they still have the safe cocoon of knowing they could climb harder, but don't have to. If they pushed it an maxed out at 11b, game over. They've lost the "what's my potential aspect of climbing." Nevermind that everyone can surpass a given plateau. But you see what I'm getting at. Others might be a afraid of the mental commitments to climbing harder. Less security, falling more, etc. I was in that category myself for a while. It's a journey. Maybe the folks you speak of will eventually get bored enough to try something harder. You can always get better.
I love thread drift!
I wanted to comment on this line of thinking. At points in my climbing career I've been in this head space. At other times I've rejected it.
I prefectly understand your and angry's points and agree with them to a large extent. But I also encourage you both to take a broader view.
This notion - that the sole measure of success in climbing is to climb ever harder routes? I have come to understand the total BULLSHIT this line of thinking represents.
Who tells us this? Why the folks who push ever harder. In part it is a competitive statement. Pushing ever harder may be about new ground and personal achievement.... and it may be naked lust for competition, or most likely both.
Yes I'm old and I was never any good to begin with. I gotta tell ya... to the scared boy who first backed his quivering ass over a cliff at Underground City at age 13.... to pretty much ANY route I ever did in CA? MAJOR ACHIEVEMENT for old Mr Milktoast. I done good.
One day, in my haste to get ever better, I realized I didn't particularly enjoy ALWAYS pushing like that. In fact I came to understand I detested what for me was mindless pushing. Why are you throwing yourself at that route Dingus? Why why why I HAVE TO!
You will all eventually get old, get frail, and get worse. Angry too. Will angry or you or any of us eventually get bored and quit? Maybe. Maybe some of us will simply get too scared to continue. Maybe we get fat and start improving all over again, quien sabe?
Is GETTING BETTER always equated to ever harder routes?
Without any doubt in my mind whatsoever the answer is NO. However, by pushing one will get a lot better a lot faster that's for damn sure. And if it weren't for the pushers the sport of technical rock climbing wouldn't exist at all, so don't get me wrong.
But I think of this man
happily repeating and free soloing High E well into his 60s and climbing and loving life into his 80s.
Yes there is the PUSH. The there is the comfort of an old leather chair. Each in its own time eh? Wiessner found a way in his career to do both and I think his later years smiles are the most telling.
As to angry's 3 reasons for climbing... I found I could gain that joy of movement not only on hard sequences, problems and routes but also in comfortably cruising many pitches of moderate trad. In the high Sierra where driving blends into 4wd which morphs into hiking which becomes scrambling which eventually leads to technical rock climbing and perhaps a summit, then reversing all that.... its one continuous flow. Boring to some, enlivening to others.
There is more than one way to skin a cat and there are as many reasont to climb as there are climbers to hold them. There's room for us all in the Garden.
Cheers
DMT
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ja1484
Dec 7, 2007, 4:12 PM
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I use hexes because sometimes they're better than anything else.
Is there really more to discuss than that?
Furthermore, a lot of the items being debated in this thread (grades, pro preferences, Angry's "aesthetics" rules) are pretty much pure poppycock as far as debatable points go. Waste your time if you want to. I'd rather climb.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Dec 7, 2007, 4:47 PM)
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paintrain
Dec 7, 2007, 4:27 PM
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I guess I have to go with Hemingway on this one. "There are but three true sports--bullfighting, mountain climbing, and motor-racing. The rest are merely games." (although it seems if you dig a little that it isn't a true Hemingway quote).
All those things except climbing are GAMES.
I feel sport relies on some fairly high level of risk combined with skill. Thus I wouldn't really consider sky diving a sport as it is almost entirely gear dependent for overcoming the risk.
You still didn't address why you will use old school crampons and not hexes ;-). You are using a double standard here.
PT
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angry
Dec 7, 2007, 4:39 PM
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paintrain wrote: You still didn't address why you will use old school crampons and not hexes ;-). You are using a double standard here. PT
Geez, you'd think CCH made Switchblades the way you're hunting them out.
I'm not convinced that there's anything on the market that will climb ice as well. Mixed, probably, pure ice, nope.
Remember that mine are a rather modified version and I agree with you that a stock set isn't that hot.
I climb on lots of older gear because I fail to see a newer or better alternative. Hexes on the other hand were only useful to get me climbing before I could afford cams.
Anyone wanna have a passive race? Pick the route and we both have to lead it fully passive. First one to the top wins. Anyone?
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cfnubbler
Dec 7, 2007, 5:31 PM
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angry wrote: dingus wrote: Hi Larry I'd chime in with the why-nots but you already know those reasons and last time I volunteered this info I was personally flamed for it. Enjoy your hexes mate! DMT ps. I too feel the call of the nut bro, (to your first point). Sometimes the nut's the nut and sometimes the nut's a nutter. I agree with the point that Dingus wants to make. Hexes are stupid. Other than a potential bail piece in the middle of nowhere, I don't see ever using one again. Should I start a poll among you happy hex proponents as to your hardest trad redpoint? I'm guessing the mean to fall somewhere in the 5.8 range. Maybe an outlier up to 10b. I bring up grades because I think it's important for the people that read these threads to know that you don't speak for progression, the cutting edge, or the advancement of crack climbing. You speak for a bunch of dinks messing around with obsolete gear. Flame me. Just know that I free solo cracks harder than you'll probably ever climb. Bitchez!!
lol...Well, my consistent onsight level (and forget redpointing) falls considerably outside your "outlier" of .10b, but that's hardly relevant. Nobody here is claiming their opinions represent cutting-edge crack climbing. And unless your ascent log is badly in need of an update, neither does yours. Last time I checked, 5.12 cracks (while impressive) are hardly cutting edge, but whatever.
What is relevant, and the point that I think you were trying to make when your spraying interfered, is one I agree with. On truly hard (for me) leads, I don't use hexes. I do use them in the situations described in my earlier post.
-Nubbler
(This post was edited by cfnubbler on Dec 7, 2007, 5:48 PM)
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cchildre
Dec 7, 2007, 5:36 PM
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Excellent read. Fine points by Angry and others.
I guess that I would fall into a moderate's position reguarding this. I gather a specific pleasure from climbing a route using passive gear alone. I am never pushing my limit, as I dial down the grade a little. Second, free soloing a route yeilds another variant of that pleasure, and is on still an even lower grade. If I am pushing my limit, I will reach for cams first and always. I sort of see shades of the whole Boulder/Trad/Sport argument. I personally, enjoy all of it, and respect everyones choice to indulge or ignore any facet of this disipline. I will continue to promote all the forms of climbing, but I will always have my favorite, as everyone should.
Thanks for the good laughs this am - Dingus and Angry (you guys are funny)
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paintrain
Dec 7, 2007, 6:42 PM
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I'm just giving you a hard time.
I agree with you. The leap in function of cams over hexes is huge.
The biggest advancement in crampons in the last 100 years was the front points. Other than than it has been rather incremental.
PT
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tomtom
Dec 7, 2007, 6:52 PM
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angry wrote: Hexes are stupid.
Hexes are just hunks of metal with cord or wire.
You, on the other hand, ...
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biggernhell
Dec 7, 2007, 7:01 PM
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I use em' because I'm poor and sometimes I run out of that size cam.
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curtis_g
Dec 7, 2007, 7:26 PM
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angry wrote: Hexes are stupid. Other than a potential bail piece in the middle of nowhere, I don't see ever using one again. Should I start a poll among you happy hex proponents as to your hardest trad redpoint? I'm guessing the mean to fall somewhere in the 5.8 range. Maybe an outlier up to 10b. I bring up grades because I think it's important for the people that read these threads to know that you don't speak for progression, the cutting edge, or the advancement of crack climbing. You speak for a bunch of dinks messing around with obsolete gear. Flame me. Just know that I free solo cracks harder than you'll probably ever climb. Bitchez!!
this upcoming spring I'll run up an 11a... on hexes, tricams and slung tunnels, and yes, it will be more fun and more challenging and I will feel more accomplished after having done so. Much more so than clipping the bolts...all 4 of them on the 50 ft climb.
I'll get back to you then.
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brutusofwyde
Dec 7, 2007, 7:30 PM
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WHY use hexes?
In reply to: There is an often unrecognized Essential Truth
Spare us your dogma.
In reply to: climbing a route with passive gear is inherently more rewarding than using cams.
Inherently? Nope. if it were, why do so many disagree?
In reply to: There is also a safety benefit to the use of hexes that makes them an excellent complement to a cam rack. Certain placements strongly favor hexes. In an irregular crack, the hex can be perfect where the cam is shaky. In placements involving thin flakes, you can often place good passive gear in a fashion that avoids the strongly multiplied outward forces associated with a cam. In sub-optimal, low-friction conditions, such as wet, icy, or soft rock, the hex may offer the most secure placement. When placements are shallow (e.g. using face features such as Red Rock's varnished plates) the hex will sometimes nestle into a spot where the cam cannot fit.
Discussed ad nauseum when Friends first were introduced comercially. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule that the cam is a better piece. Your point?
In reply to: I normally climb with both hexes and cams. Sometimes I will climb with no cams, but I never climb with no hexes.
goody for you.
Although I agree that there are somple placements that will more readily take a hex than a cam, I run across those situations where I climb so rarely as to invalidate that as a reason for me to carry 'em.
WHY do I carry passive when I do? ONE REASON ONLY:
they (Rockcentrics) are lighter.
I take them when this one fact outweighs (pardon) all their disadvantages. When the type of climb I'm attempting makes the disadvantages less important: in other words, a climb well within my limits, where I can hang around fiddling with pro and not worry about running out of strength. and where my second can do the same.
Even so, the lighter weight is (somewhat) offset by the fact that, when set solidly, the passive pieces are as a general rule harder to clean. = slower climbing. = storm or bivy.
"Hexes" are a tool. In some rare cases, the better tool.
For me.
[Note: d!ck waving, how hard I climb vs how hard you climb, whether I have to climb ever harder routes to find fulfillment in life, and other completely irrelevant thread drift omitted.]
Cheers,
Brutus
(This post was edited by brutusofwyde on Dec 7, 2007, 7:32 PM)
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wanderlustmd
Dec 7, 2007, 8:14 PM
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Brutus, thread drift is the spice of RC.com! 
"dingus wrote: This notion - that the sole measure of success in climbing is to climb ever harder routes? I have come to understand the total BULLSHIT this line of thinking represents. Who tells us this? Why the folks who push ever harder. In part it is a competitive statement. Pushing ever harder may be about new ground and personal achievement.... and it may be naked lust for competition, or most likely both.
Yeah, it probably came across that way, but I don't believe that it's the sole measure of success. But I think Angry made a good point. Not so much about hard routes versus easier routes, but more about self-imposed limitations.
In lots of contexts, I think technically harder routes and what Angry is talking about obviously align, because they force you out of the comfort zone > more ability > accomplishment, etc. Nothing I can say hasn't been said before, but one day in particular, I had a partner push me in that healthy way more so than ever before and I got my hardest send of year because of it (this was several years ago). The feeling of personal accomplishment in not backing off far outweighed the "I just did a 5.X!"
"dingus wrote: Yes I'm old and I was never any good to begin with. I gotta tell ya... to the scared boy who first backed his quivering ass over a cliff at Underground City at age 13.... to pretty much ANY route I ever did in CA? MAJOR ACHIEVEMENT for old Mr Milktoast. I done good. One day, in my haste to get ever better, I realized I didn't particularly enjoy ALWAYS pushing like that. In fact I came to understand I detested what for me was mindless pushing. Why are you throwing yourself at that route Dingus? Why why why I HAVE TO!
I didn't climb for a significant period because I got caught up in that personal competition, and one day I realized I was looking forward to the ride home from climbing more than the ride to it. Self-competition is an easy trap to fall into.
"dingus wrote: You will all eventually get old, get frail, and get worse. Angry too. Will angry or you or any of us eventually get bored and quit? Maybe. Maybe some of us will simply get too scared to continue. Maybe we get fat and start improving all over again, quien sabe? Is GETTING BETTER always equated to ever harder routes?
Nope.
"dingus wrote: Without any doubt in my mind whatsoever the answer is NO. However, by pushing one will get a lot better a lot faster that's for damn sure. And if it weren't for the pushers the sport of technical rock climbing wouldn't exist at all, so don't get me wrong. But I think of this man [img]http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/9/90/Fritz1.jpg[/img] happily repeating and free soloing High E well into his 60s and climbing and loving life into his 80s.
This past weekend I climbed with an older fella. We didn't do anything above 5.7, mostly 5.5 and we had a blast. Just the feeling of moving on the rock, like Angry described, made it a good day.
"dingus wrote: Yes there is the PUSH. The there is the comfort of an old leather chair. Each in its own time eh? Wiessner found a way in his career to do both and I think his later years smiles are the most telling. As to angry's 3 reasons for climbing... I found I could gain that joy of movement not only on hard sequences, problems and routes but also in comfortably cruising many pitches of moderate trad. In the high Sierra where driving blends into 4wd which morphs into hiking which becomes scrambling which eventually leads to technical rock climbing and perhaps a summit, then reversing all that.... its one continuous flow. Boring to some, enlivening to others. There is more than one way to skin a cat and there are as many reasont to climb as there are climbers to hold them. There's room for us all in the Garden. Cheers DMT
Yeah, I think back to the fun it was just to climb, before I knew what a grade was, and that's the reason we all got started into this in one way or another right?
Cheers!
/thread drift
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