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shockabuku
May 6, 2008, 4:11 PM
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oldsalt wrote: Outdoor-oriented people have rules that keep you safe,...
Not really.
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cushman
May 6, 2008, 4:20 PM
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oldsalt wrote: This has been discussed in other threads, but I have to ask, "What the Hell does climbing 5.10 have to do with lead climbing?"
Typically overhanging routes are the safest to fall on.
Typically overhanging routes are 5.10 and up.
Typically fixed draws/bolts in the gym are placed only on overhanging routes.
Because of those reasons, most gyms require you to climb at the level the majority of the lead climbs are set at. How many 5.7 lead routes have you seen in the gym? How many 5.11 routes are set on the lead wall?
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ClimbinGangsta
May 6, 2008, 4:56 PM
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cushman wrote: oldsalt wrote: This has been discussed in other threads, but I have to ask, "What the Hell does climbing 5.10 have to do with lead climbing?"
Typically overhanging routes are 5.10 and up.
Typically fixed draws/bolts in the gym are placed only on overhanging routes.
Because of those reasons, most gyms require you to climb at the level the majority of the lead climbs are set at. How many 5.7 lead routes have you seen in the gym? How many 5.11 routes are set on the lead wall?
I agree with this for sure.
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saxfiend
May 6, 2008, 6:28 PM
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Yet again I find myself coming to Oldsalt's defense since nobody else will.
Requiring a new leader to be able to lead at the 5.10 level is unrealistic and totally arbitrary. By this logic, you wouldn't be allowed to get behind the wheel of a car until you'd learned to ride a motorcycle. The logical and rational way to learn lead skills is at a level well below your TR climbing skills; that way the actual climbing is easy enough that your concentration can be given to the specific skills you don't already have, like clipping, rope management, avoiding backclipping, etc.
As I've said before, I'm glad my local gyms don't have this stupid requirement.
JL
(This post was edited by saxfiend on May 6, 2008, 6:29 PM)
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silascl
May 6, 2008, 6:37 PM
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saxfiend wrote: Yet again I find myself coming to Oldsalt's defense since nobody else will. Requiring a new leader to be able to lead at the 5.10 level is unrealistic and totally arbitrary. By this logic, you wouldn't be allowed to get behind the wheel of a car until you'd learned to ride a motorcycle. The logical and rational way to learn lead skills is at a level well below your TR climbing skills; that way the actual climbing is easy enough that your concentration can be given to the specific skills you don't already have, like clipping, rope management, avoiding backclipping, etc. As I've said before, I'm glad my local gyms don't have this stupid requirement. JL
It's pretty simple to learn all this stuff at a gym without taking the lead test. Just trail a rope and mock lead.
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justroberto
May 6, 2008, 6:41 PM
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Seriously, who waits until he or she is a solid 5.10 climber before learning to lead? Perhaps this is thee case for some people, but you'll find hordes of people who have been leading for several years who won't be solid on 10s.
Off topic: Hey sax, I see you were on Lotta Balls a couple of weeks ago - how'd you like that first fifteen feet of the second pitch? I remember standing up on one particular ball that was sticking wayyyy out just before the first bolt and thinking There is absolutely no way this thing is going to hold my weight... and there's the anchor way down there.
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kriso9tails
May 6, 2008, 6:48 PM
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saxfiend wrote: Yet again I find myself coming to Oldsalt's defense since nobody else will. Requiring a new leader to be able to lead at the 5.10 level is unrealistic and totally arbitrary. By this logic, you wouldn't be allowed to get behind the wheel of a car until you'd learned to ride a motorcycle. The logical and rational way to learn lead skills is at a level well below your TR climbing skills; that way the actual climbing is easy enough that your concentration can be given to the specific skills you don't already have, like clipping, rope management, avoiding backclipping, etc. As I've said before, I'm glad my local gyms don't have this stupid requirement. JL
I know a number of gyms that list this requirement and all of them allow people that are not climbing 5.10 to take the course if they feel that the person has enough climbing experience under their belt. The reason the rule is generally used isn't exactly ideal, but it's practical; it makes it easier for gym owners to filter out people that have just started climbing and barely know how to top rope let alone lead.
The other reason is that it filters out (to a certain degree) people who just scramble wildly up climbs. Admittedly, that's not a habit everyone out grows, but most people have to give it up before they can progress to consistently cleaning 10s. If you can flash 5.10 then you should be able to climb 5.7-9 with enough comfort and control to learn to lead safely and efficiently. Again, I haven't been to a gym that didn't use their discretion on this standard and allow climbers below that grade barrier learn to lead... though I'm sure there are gyms like that out there... somewhere.
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clee03m
May 6, 2008, 6:58 PM
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I actually wish there was a separate lead belay and lead test. That way some people who may not be interested in leading can still lead belay me. Yeah, I really don't agree with 5.10 thing. You can set biggest jugs up a route and make even an over hanging route easier than 5.10 and safe for the lead test.
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MonkeyInTraining
May 6, 2008, 7:06 PM
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In reply to: If you don't like the rules, don't fall.
In reply to: By this logic, you wouldn't be allowed to get behind the wheel of a car until you'd learned to ride a motorcycle.
Good idea! I am all for doing something about the 40,000 deaths on the roads of the United States annualy. I'm serious, driving like an idiot is not in the Bill of Rights damnit 
(This post was edited by MonkeyInTraining on May 6, 2008, 7:09 PM)
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curtis_g
May 6, 2008, 7:09 PM
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time2clmb wrote: They must have told you what you keep fucking up on. If you are consistently failing you might want to consider a different past time.
Yes, a different past time.
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crimpandgo
May 6, 2008, 7:13 PM
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ClimbinGangsta wrote: cushman wrote: oldsalt wrote: This has been discussed in other threads, but I have to ask, "What the Hell does climbing 5.10 have to do with lead climbing?" Typically overhanging routes are the safest to fall on. Typically overhanging routes are 5.10 and up. Typically fixed draws/bolts in the gym are placed only on overhanging routes. Because of those reasons, most gyms require you to climb at the level the majority of the lead climbs are set at. How many 5.7 lead routes have you seen in the gym? How many 5.11 routes are set on the lead wall?
Lots, but I am sure it depends on the climbing gym you go to. some gyms have a special lead climbing area. My experience is they tend to harder but still contain lower level climbs. The gyms that have draws up throughout the gym often have a nice combination of hard and easy climbs.
I can only speak for the two states I have gym climbed in.
(This post was edited by crimpandgo on May 6, 2008, 7:13 PM)
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CaptainPolution
May 6, 2008, 7:25 PM
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many of you are missing the point. old salt got it although im not sure if he was sarcastic...
indoor lead tests have nothing to do with the "real world". It has nothing to do with outside climbing. I work at a gym and I have failed many outsidfe climbers on their lead test.
indoor leading and belaying is not the same as outside. go ahead and lead 5.7 outside but it has nothing to do with leading 5.7 inside. a competent 5.10 leader inside will(should) have the right skills to lead inside. I know outdoor 5.12 climbers that have failed their lead tests. gym climbing is not outside climbing. its the truth and you dumbos need to realize it.
i was givnig a lead test once and I put this guy on a 10a and he said he only leads 8 outside. too bad. it is not the same. you can't have 4 feet of party slack inside and thats what is wrong with most people.
dont like gym rules dont climb there.
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saxfiend
May 6, 2008, 7:39 PM
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justroberto wrote: Off topic: Hey sax, I see you were on Lotta Balls a couple of weeks ago - how'd you like that first fifteen feet of the second pitch?
JL
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saxfiend
May 6, 2008, 7:46 PM
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CaptainPolution wrote: I know outdoor 5.12 climbers that have failed their lead tests. gym climbing is not outside climbing. its the truth and you dumbos need to realize it.
Trading leads on an 11-pitch line at Red Rock: $0
Not having to deal with self-important gym douchebags: priceless
JL
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freeledgeledgy
May 6, 2008, 7:47 PM
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#1 Rule: Don't get sucked into climbing in the gym.
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yokese
May 6, 2008, 7:51 PM
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saxfiend wrote: The logical and rational way to learn lead skills is at a level well below your TR climbing skills;
The point is that they don't want people learning how to lead on their walls. They want competent lead climbers. A climbing gym is not a climbing school. Admittedly, 5.10 is arbitrary, but it's usually hard enough to keep most of the beginners at bay. I have the hunch that it's an insurance related thing.
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shockabuku
May 6, 2008, 7:55 PM
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CaptainPolution wrote: many of you are missing the point. old salt got it although im not sure if he was sarcastic... indoor lead tests have nothing to do with the "real world". It has nothing to do with outside climbing. I work at a gym and I have failed many outsidfe climbers on their lead test. indoor leading and belaying is not the same as outside. go ahead and lead 5.7 outside but it has nothing to do with leading 5.7 inside. a competent 5.10 leader inside will(should) have the right skills to lead inside. I know outdoor 5.12 climbers that have failed their lead tests. gym climbing is not outside climbing. its the truth and you dumbos need to realize it. i was givnig a lead test once and I put this guy on a 10a and he said he only leads 8 outside. too bad. it is not the same. you can't have 4 feet of party slack inside and thats what is wrong with most people. dont like gym rules dont climb there.
You clearly failed to enunciate what those skills for indoor leading (vs. outdoor leading) are, and why they're important. Hence, your post is mostly noise.
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justroberto
May 6, 2008, 7:55 PM
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CaptainPolution wrote: a competent 5.10 leader inside will(should) have the right skills to lead inside.
The key word there is competent. By definition a competent 5.7 leader inside will have the right skills to lead inside. Making the assumption that that skillset only occurs at some arbitrary level is absurd and potentially dangerous for the new climber who thinks that his latest easy 10 tr makes him qualified to lead. I would venture to say that a seasoned 5.9 leader knows how to stay calm or when to back off more so than your fledgeling 5.10 leader.
In reply to: I know outdoor 5.12 climbers that have failed their lead tests.
They probably don't clip all 9 bolts on that 30 foot "5.10", huh?
In reply to: gym climbing is not outside climbing.
Ain't that the truth.
In reply to: dont like gym rules dont climb there.
Most climbers don't.
You realize you misspelled pollution in your screen name, don't you?
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kimsismour
May 6, 2008, 7:56 PM
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I am going to throw out a twist to the conversation. I have been told by many people that learning to climb on top rope is almost stepping backwards because if you fear the fall (which many of us including myself do) then it is harder to progress. Where if you learn to fall from the get go by leading right off the bat, you will inturn become a better climber, faster, Because you already know how to deal with the mental aspect of the sport.
the 5.10 rule blows this idea out of the water.
If you have to be able to lead 5.10 in a gym to pass the test, then the gym is forcing people to stay on top rope, instead of moving to the "next step" of climbing. I can understand that gyms have liability and insurance reasons, but why would you force people with a higher fall potential to climb harder routes. That sounds backwards to me. If you can not learn to lead in a somewhat controled environment, then what is the point of going to the gym. IMHO I use the gym to train for outdoors, If I can't train there, physically and mentally, then I just wasted the gas to get there.
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justroberto
May 6, 2008, 8:11 PM
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I pm'd you.
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macblaze
May 6, 2008, 8:58 PM
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Just as a matter of interest, no one here ever mentioned that 5.10 was a "rule" in any particular gym. There was just a bunch of "rule of thumb" mentions about 5.10 as a standard.
So...are there many actual gyms that REQUIRE 5.10 climbing before you can take a test? Do you have to take a lead test on the 5.10 itself. Because I agree, it pretty much blows as a rule. "Rules-of-thumb" are meant to broken, "rules" just mean some 15 year old is going to explain why his boss said, so sorry charlie, but no can do etc.
signed
King of the 5.7 lead climbers!
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kriso9tails
May 6, 2008, 9:22 PM
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Poorly written rules, but somewhat amusing all the same.
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silascl
May 6, 2008, 9:28 PM
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kriso9tails wrote: Poorly written rules, but somewhat amusing all the same.
Do you mean poorly written as in poorly worded or do you disagree with them?
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macblaze
May 6, 2008, 9:58 PM
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silascl wrote: kriso9tails wrote: Poorly written rules, but somewhat amusing all the same. Do you mean poorly written as in poorly worded or do you disagree with them?
I'd say both:
In reply to: Belayer must belay immediately underneath the first clip until climber has clipped at least the 4th quickdraw.
So if the climber does a ground fall on the 2nd clip it will be right on the belayer? This really goes to show how different each gym treats the idea of "what's safe"...
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