If you are jugging a vertical rope (no traversing) with biners in the top of both jumars, is it still necessary to tie backup knots for safety? If so, why?

This question came up while jugging to Sickle ledge. I left the bottom of the line I was jugging tied to the bolts so it wouldn't blow away from the bolts (so my partner following me could get the rope). But the tied rope made the slack available for safety knots very short, requiring frequent untieing / re-tieing of the safety knots, which really slowed progress.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance for any helpful replies.

I'll answer your question with a question:
Why do you tie back-up knots at all?

You tie them so that if your ascender fails, you'll stop on the knot and not just go flying off the end of the rope. If the end of your rope is already anchored to bolts down below, then you're not going to fall off the end of the rope anyway.

However, tying back-up knots frequently means that not only do you not fall off the end of the rope, but you get stopped only a few feet from the point where your ascender failed, and not all the way at the bottom of the rope (which could be hundreds of feet below).

in my personal opinion, two ascenders each attached to my harness with the rope end tied off at the bottom would be enough redundancy for me to not tie back-up knots. but you're free to decide how safe or dangerous you want to be and what exactly that means for you. it's all situational.

When jugging, you don't tie stopper knots like you are suggesting here. Which is similar to what you do on the end of the rope when rappelling. You tie a figure eight or overhand knot and clip that to your harness. That way if your jugs fail, you are still tied in to the rope.

in my opinion, while a fall all the way to bolts at the bottom of the rope would be heinous, at least you're not going to go flying off the end.

No you don't fly off the end. You come to a static stop/splat when you hit the bolts (as opposed to yo-yo-ing when you come to your last clipped knot).

People have twisted off their jugs even when jugging a straight vertical rope. Maybe not the most common way to do it (jugs coming off is usually when traversing or coming over a lip of a roof). The grigri backup while far from fail proof, is some added safety with almost no added hassle.

Safety is a matter of tradeoffs and personal opinion. Is any climbing/jugging safe?

But as a suggestion as to what I would do, I would connect my grigri below the jugs and call it good to go.

I jumar many hundreds of feet on a regular basis and have never found knots to be necessary, and a gri-gri below the jumars would be an incredible pain in the ass. Just make sure you're daisyed in and go.

I jumar many hundreds of feet on a regular basis and have never found knots to be necessary

People have twisted off their jugs even when jugging a straight vertical rope. Maybe not the most common way to do it (jugs coming off is usually when traversing or coming over a lip of a roof).

Do you have a source for this?

I can't visualize how ascenders can twist or otherwise come off the rope while jugging if the ascenders have biners at the top holding them on to the rope. Can you describe how this happens? (I'm assuming the ascenders are attached to the climber with daisy chains.)

The biggest risk I can picture is one of the ascender cams getting locked open, so the ascender slides down the rope.

Hhmm. I thought I had read of accidents of this sort. In particular, I had thought there was at least one on ElCap (late 80's?, early 90's?) where someone jugging a clean line (not cleaning pro) and no obvious roofs was killed. But if this really sounds like news to someone with your level of experience, I'll reconsider the confidence of my memories (or browse through old archives if I get really motivated).

But while you are here, what's your suggestion for the OP?

If you are jugging a vertical rope (no traversing) with biners in the top of both jumars, is it still necessary to tie backup knots for safety? If so, why?

This question came up while jugging to Sickle ledge. I left the bottom of the line I was jugging tied to the bolts so it wouldn't blow away from the bolts (so my partner following me could get the rope). But the tied rope made the slack available for safety knots very short, requiring frequent untieing / re-tieing of the safety knots, which really slowed progress.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance for any helpful replies.

... and even came completely partially unthreaded

"Completely partially"?

Just use the gri-gri. You don't have to F with all that rope while cleaning, if your on a fixed line (and can't tie in) its right there and makes moving over a knot or around anchors easy and safe. JMO

[IMG]http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/918/screenhunter01apr131139.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/4540/screenhunter02apr131140.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2417/screenhunter03apr131142.jpg[/IMG]

Adding the gri gri seems like a pretty good idea, but would you ever just put a prussik above the jugs and let them push it up as you go? Would that even work or would the prussik just get entangled in the jugs?

There is a rather easy method of ascending with a GriGri that can be done on one rope or two (two if the top anchor allows the rope to move through). This method uses a Cinch or GriGri with one ascender, a sling or PAS as a backup, a foot strap and a Mini-Traction.

[img]http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2013/31481863.png[/img]

Basically you step on the foot strap and pull down on the free end of the rope simultaneously to feel slack in. Then you push the ascender back up and repeat. Its redundancy comes from the ascender if the GriGri were to slip. You can use a pulley instead of the Mini-Traxion but I use the Traxion as it provides even more redundancy for the locking cam generally engages if the rope starts to slip through too fast. If you decide you want to rap the fixed line, all you need to do is disconnect the ascender and you’re ready to go.


Edit: Yes I know backup is a compound word.

Bingo. This is the Better Way.

I like the grigri approach especially for cleaning traverses. You can pull tight with the grigri, then move both jugs above the last piece, then weight the jugs by releasing the grigri, and then clean the piece.

(Sorry for the thread drift. We were talking about jugging fixed lines ...)

So what is system made of ? is it, ascender, mini-traxion, Gri Gri or pulley?

I hope you never become an instructor cause there will a triage of dead climbers rolling out of your class.

Try taking a whipper on an ascender and see what happens... Take the same on a GriGri and you may live to tell about it. An ascender will strip a 10.5 mm rope with about 4 kN and cut it in half with about 5.5 kN. A GriGri won’t even slip at 4 kN... This method was taught to me by multiple expert climbers that jugg more feet of rope in a month then you have in your lifetime...

You weight the GriGri well jugging and use the ascender as a backup and to pull down on. Look this method up. It’s not something I created myself…

Does this expert dude has a name?

There is a rather easy method of ascending with a GriGri that can be done on one rope or two (two if the top anchor allows the rope to move through). This method uses a Cinch or GriGri with one ascender, a sling or PAS as a backup, a foot strap and a Mini-Traction.

[img]http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2013/31481863.png[/img]

Basically you step on the foot strap and pull down on the free end of the rope simultaneously to feel slack in. Then you push the ascender back up and repeat. Its redundancy comes from the ascender if the GriGri were to slip. You can use a pulley instead of the Mini-Traxion but I use the Traxion as it provides even more redundancy for the locking cam generally engages if the rope starts to slip through too fast. If you decide you want to rap the fixed line, all you need to do is disconnect the ascender and you’re ready to go.

Mini trax IS a pully.

You can use a pulley instead of the Mini-Traxion but I use the Traxion as it provides even more redundancy for the locking cam generally engages if the rope starts to slip through too fast.

Well, duh. But it's can also be a rope grab. Explain this to me:


How does the locking cam engage if it is only being used as a 'pully'?

Oh good god....

What is the purpose of the mini-traxion? If the traxion is used as a rope grab, then how do you push the blue ascender up the rope while hanging on the Grigri?

Well, duh. But it's can also be a rope grab. Explain this to me:


How does the locking cam engage if it is only being used as a 'pully'?

In normal operation the locking cam will always remain disengaged. However it is not hard to get the cam to engage for it takes very little pressure to snap the cam down on the rope ... .

But in reality if you had to do a lot of ascending I wouldn’t use a Traxon for a pulley. It’s really easy to engage the cam on the Traxon and thus accordingly I often find the cam engaging inadvertently well jugging.

The Mini-Traxon is used solely as a pulley in the above example. You can replace the Traxon with a standard pulley if you want. In normal operation the locking cam will always remain disengaged. However it is not hard to get the cam to engage for it takes very little pressure to snap the cam down on the rope. Accordingly if for some reason the GriGri started to slip, the huge increase in rope feed speed may catch the teeth of the Traxon. If this happens it will lock down and stop you instantly. However I do not use the Traxon as a backup. A sling connected from my harness to the ascender is the backup. You can think of the Traxon as a tertiary backup if for some reason your sling or the connecting biner fails. But in reality if you had to do a lot of ascending I wouldn’t use a Traxon for a pulley. It’s really easy to engage the cam on the Traxon and thus accordingly I often find the cam engaging inadvertently well jugging. In part, I use the Traxon because it’s the best pulley I have. My other pulleys suck and since I have a Traxon I don’t find much of a need to buy another pully.