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camhead
Apr 14, 2009, 5:31 PM
Post #26 of 39
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I really don't think that crack climbing is sandbagged per se. The bottom line is (ok, traddies, get ready to lynch me) that, if you can actually get your fingers into something, it will by definition not be much harder than .13.
Sport climbing takes a LOT more techniques than crack climbing, and when elite sport climbers who have 5.14 crimping endurance get their rudimentary jamming skills down, a 5.13 crack probably feels about like a 5.13 sport route. I know of quite a few sport climbers who have made short work of Ruby's Cafe at Indian Creek.
In my own limited (and not sending) experience, the difficulty of 13a cracks, whether enduro, bouldery, or technical, is roughly correspondent to that of enduro, bouldery, or technical sport climbs of the same grade. This is only in terms of movement, not in terms of strenuous gear placements or anything.
Since once you get less than tips size it is basically a face climb anyway, as you said, the only way for a pure crack climb to get into the 5.14 range is for it to either be steep, powerful (long distances between locks), or a combination of both. Cracks like this are rare, obviously. So, I don't think that there is any inherent sandbagging going on with cracks, it's just that there is a much smaller pool of candidates to draw from.
Not sure if that all makes sense.
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sspssp
Apr 14, 2009, 6:13 PM
Post #27 of 39
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petsfed wrote: I dunno, that flared-too-big-for-stacks size chewed my ass for breakfast on a 10c last fall, so maybe it just *feels* harder. I have to say that baggy fingers in a corner feels not so bad to me, although there has to be good footholds or pods present.... Again, it seems to be the availability of footholds on cracks to small to easily jam that make all the difference.
To compare sizes in a meaningful way, I would think you need to compare splitters that don't have other footholds. I mean, that blank seam in the corner is a breeze as long as I get a 5.7 stem...
OW are tough for the grade because people don't climb them as much. If climbers spent as much time on OW stacks as hand jams, a 10c would feel like a 10c. But flared cracks also change things.
And to modify my original post: for an Indian Creek splitter with no pods, not other feet, I would list off fingers first and then I would actually say finger locks are second, just because you end up with so little weight on your feet. Third would probably be the 1.5" ringlock size where you start to get a meaningful toe jam.
And if you go narrower than fingerlocks, well, I would say the blank, polished granite face is the hardest.
Edited to add: But even if feet are not taken into consideration, I can still grip, pull out harder on a 1.5" ringlock than I can on loose fingers.
(This post was edited by sspssp on Apr 14, 2009, 7:18 PM)
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petsfed
Apr 14, 2009, 6:18 PM
Post #28 of 39
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What was horrifying about that 10c was that after I got back to the ground, they guy who showed it to me said that he didn't get it until he'd done several harder offwidths, including one that is a notorious sandbag, one that I've seen one of the strongest crack climbers on this site fail on.
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cracklover
Apr 14, 2009, 6:28 PM
Post #29 of 39
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petsfed wrote: cracklover wrote: Coyne Crack Simulator is simply way way WAY easier than Coyne Crack. That's all there is to it. There's absolutely no need for a single ringlock/off-fingers on CCS. I disagree. I could never get the tight hands jam to feel secure enough to place gear off of. I've got the gobies to prove it. My hand size is such that two ringlocks for the pitch were necessary. Jesus, I'm arguing about the difficulty of a second rate, 40 foot, mostly hand-crack. How did it come to this?
Have you done Coyne Crack? Did you find it comparable to CCS?
GO
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petsfed
Apr 14, 2009, 6:37 PM
Post #31 of 39
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camhead wrote: petsfed wrote: What was horrifying about that 10c was that after I got back to the ground, they guy who showed it to me said that he didn't get it until he'd done several harder offwidths, including one that is a notorious sandbag, one that I've seen one of the strongest crack climbers on this site fail on. you're talking about Wounded Knee still, right?
No, I'm talking about Jay's Solo at Vedauwoo. Edl told me that he had to do Big Pink, which is sandbag 11b, before he could get up that thing. I've watched angry flail and curse and thrutch and otherwise make zero progress on Big Pink, so it kind of put it in perspective.
It felt like the tight hands section before the knee jam on Wounded Knee was the crux, but honestly, the offwidth part of Wounded Knee felt like 5.8.
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camhead
Apr 14, 2009, 9:32 PM
Post #32 of 39
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petsfed wrote: camhead wrote: petsfed wrote: What was horrifying about that 10c was that after I got back to the ground, they guy who showed it to me said that he didn't get it until he'd done several harder offwidths, including one that is a notorious sandbag, one that I've seen one of the strongest crack climbers on this site fail on. you're talking about Wounded Knee still, right? No, I'm talking about Jay's Solo at Vedauwoo. Edl told me that he had to do Big Pink, which is sandbag 11b, before he could get up that thing. I've watched angry flail and curse and thrutch and otherwise make zero progress on Big Pink, so it kind of put it in perspective. It felt like the tight hands section before the knee jam on Wounded Knee was the crux, but honestly, the offwidth part of Wounded Knee felt like 5.8.
oh, ok, cuz I was about to spray that I remember absolutely nothing remarkable or hard about Wounded Knee.
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petsfed
Apr 15, 2009, 3:23 AM
Post #33 of 39
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camhead wrote: petsfed wrote: camhead wrote: petsfed wrote: What was horrifying about that 10c was that after I got back to the ground, they guy who showed it to me said that he didn't get it until he'd done several harder offwidths, including one that is a notorious sandbag, one that I've seen one of the strongest crack climbers on this site fail on. you're talking about Wounded Knee still, right? No, I'm talking about Jay's Solo at Vedauwoo. Edl told me that he had to do Big Pink, which is sandbag 11b, before he could get up that thing. I've watched angry flail and curse and thrutch and otherwise make zero progress on Big Pink, so it kind of put it in perspective. It felt like the tight hands section before the knee jam on Wounded Knee was the crux, but honestly, the offwidth part of Wounded Knee felt like 5.8. oh, ok, cuz I was about to spray that I remember absolutely nothing remarkable or hard about Wounded Knee.
You should see the comment thread on Mountain Project. To hear them tell it, its quite the sandbag.
As for Coyne Crack itself, the last time I was at Supercrack Buttress was 5 years ago. As I was walking past, I stopped to sink my mitts into it, and rightly realized that it was beyond me at the time. I've not been back since to find out if its still beyond me. Smart money says yes.
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cracklover
Apr 15, 2009, 4:45 PM
Post #34 of 39
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Okay, then just to clarify, when you said:
petsfed wrote: cracklover wrote: Coyne Crack Simulator is simply way way WAY easier than Coyne Crack. That's all there is to it. There's absolutely no need for a single ringlock/off-fingers on CCS. I disagree. I could never get the tight hands jam to feel secure enough to place gear off of. I've got the gobies to prove it. My hand size is such that two ringlocks for the pitch were necessary.
You don't actually disagree that Coyne Crack is way way harder than CCS, right? Because that was the point I was making way back when. If CCS for your hand size has a ringlock or two, I don't think that changes it much.
GO
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camhead
Apr 15, 2009, 4:55 PM
Post #35 of 39
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I don't think that anyone would say that Coyne Crack Simulator has very little to do with Coyne Crack. It ireally is an unfortunate name. I think that, hell, Scarface is a lot more of a Coyne Crack Simulator than CCS is.
This is a fun thread, by the way.
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cracklover
Apr 15, 2009, 5:27 PM
Post #36 of 39
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camhead wrote: I don't think that anyone would say that Coyne Crack Simulator has very little to do with Coyne Crack. It ireally is an unfortunate name. I think that, hell, Scarface is a lot more of a Coyne Crack Simulator than CCS is.
I think you have an extra negative in there? ^^^
So I *think* I agree. CC and CCS are totally different, and CCS is in no way good training, or even a good warmup, for CC.
In reply to: This is a fun thread, by the way.
Yep. When Angry gets back from Moab, no doubt he'll have plenty to say.
GO
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petsfed
Apr 15, 2009, 7:11 PM
Post #37 of 39
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cracklover wrote: Okay, then just to clarify, when you said: petsfed wrote: cracklover wrote: Coyne Crack Simulator is simply way way WAY easier than Coyne Crack. That's all there is to it. There's absolutely no need for a single ringlock/off-fingers on CCS. I disagree. I could never get the tight hands jam to feel secure enough to place gear off of. I've got the gobies to prove it. My hand size is such that two ringlocks for the pitch were necessary. You don't actually disagree that Coyne Crack is way way harder than CCS, right? Because that was the point I was making way back when. If CCS for your hand size has a ringlock or two, I don't think that changes it much. GO
I can't really say about the difficulty of Coyne Crack, but I'm willing to bet that it is noticably harder than Coyne Crack Simulator, which has foot holds and a much, much shorter section that takes .75 camalots. I think those two points would conspire to make CCS much easier than CC itself.
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angry
Apr 20, 2009, 7:27 AM
Post #38 of 39
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petsfed wrote: I have to say that baggy fingers in a corner feels not so bad to me, although there has to be good footholds or pods present. I don't really want to think about overhanging baggy fingers, or a baggy fingers splitter. That sounds just heinous. Ringlocks are starting to feel easier for me, although I've been doing mostly ringlocks in offsets. Coyne Crack Simulator, for instance, felt pretty casual, but it is really short. Again, it seems to be the availability of footholds on cracks to small to easily jam that make all the difference.
Last week I got on a route that is baggy fingers pure splitter, for 40 of its 140 feet. I actually flashed it on TR and thought I had a chance. The next day when I tried to lead it, guess who couldn't stop to place pro. I didn't have a chance. The slightest irregularity, dimple, or jog in the crack would have changed everything. Since this thing was basically laser cut through the crux, I didn't stand a chance.
The Angry Inch is another one that size and is also overhanging. It's like 40ft long with only 20ft of hard climbing and it shut me down in every possible way.
.5 in a corner are really easy. Rarely over 12a and not that bad.
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