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cantbuymefriends
May 8, 2009, 2:24 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: I don't understand why you guys are saying it's safer to lower than it is to rap? Yea you go off belay but it's not like your hanging on a shitty anchor... if that were the case then the whole thing would be unsafe no matter how you came down. . If you simply clip and lower, then you're not taking yourself off-belay and anchoring yourself in. It's not about the quality of the anchor, but the additional steps that need to be taken to rap. Sure, it's probably easy and safe to rap, but why add links to the sytem when they are unecessary? 
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rsmillbern
May 8, 2009, 2:28 PM
Post #27 of 60
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csproul wrote: Chinchen wrote: And if the last one is my kid who doesnt know how to be cleaning anchors and weighs 45 pounds? (Which was the senario) Then get off your lazy ass and climb it after your kid so you can clean the anchors.
Agreed and agreed! I guess if you are the one apying for and taking the time to replace the gear then you should do what you want, but if your not shelling out the cash and sacrificing the time to replace the gear you should respect the local ethic.
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rsmillbern
May 8, 2009, 2:32 PM
Post #28 of 60
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retr2327 wrote: I get the theory, but I have my doubts about the practice. Sure, top-roping through aluminum rap rings involves significant wear (and eventually, significant risk), but I'd think that most shuts are a) much beefier; and b) made of much tougher metal. Will there be some wear? Sure, eventually. But will the wear occur faster than degradation of the bolt-hole, etc.? Not so clear. No anchor is good forever. It seems like it's a good idea to use your own gear b/c it's generally a good practice under other circumstances (especially in trad areas, where anchors may be used for multiple routes or rappels), but I can't see getting worked up about some group not doing it.
I can't disagree with this, except perhaps in high use areas (like popular routes at the New), but I think it comes down to respecting what the people who put the effort into the crag want to some degree.
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kennoyce
May 8, 2009, 2:58 PM
Post #29 of 60
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In reply to: I get the theory, but I have my doubts about the practice. Sure, top-roping through aluminum rap rings involves significant wear (and eventually, significant risk), but I'd think that most shuts are a) much beefier; and b) made of much tougher metal. Will there be some wear? Sure, eventually. But will the wear occur faster than degradation of the bolt-hole, etc.?
I see plenty of routes that have to have the big 1/2" thick quick links replaced yearly. Quick links are steel not aluminum and while they may not bee quite as wear resistant as fixe shuts, I know that an popular routes that are regularly toproped through the shuts, they will wear out long before the bolt or bolt hole.
This is really just a question of respect. Unless you want to shell out the cash and the time to replace the shuts then TR off of your own gear.
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rtwilli4
May 8, 2009, 3:07 PM
Post #30 of 60
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Once you have been the one to shell out the money and take the time to replace anchors... you'll get it. IMHO if there are two bomber anchors and you even lower off of them saying it's safer than rapping, then you are either being lazy, or you need to learn some more safety skills. Sure going off belay and rapping is more complicated than lowering, but it's not hard, it's not unsafe, and if you think it is than you should find another sport.
Having said that... sometimes I am lazy, and I lower. But I always try to rap off unless it is a steep route. TRing is another story. TRing on anchors is just plain unethical. Bring your own gear, period.
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fitzontherocks
May 8, 2009, 3:10 PM
Post #31 of 60
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Can anybody document the "wear and tear" a rope incurs on anchors? I find it hard to believe that it's that significant, especially compared with the metal-to-metal contact on anchors when someone clips in.
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lodi5onu
May 8, 2009, 3:18 PM
Post #33 of 60
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I have shelled out the money, and I guess I still "don't get it" because I often lower off anchors. Lowering doesn't significantly wear the anchors, TRing does. Big Difference. There's no reason to go off belay when there's no reason to go off belay.
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rtwilli4
May 8, 2009, 3:20 PM
Post #34 of 60
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lodi5onu wrote: I have shelled out the money, and I guess I still "don't get it" because I often lower off anchors. Lowering doesn't significantly wear the anchors, TRing does. Big Difference. There's no reason to go off belay when there's no reason to go off belay.
TRing is certainly a lot more abusive, but I still think it's proper to rap when it's safe. To each his own.
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kennoyce
May 8, 2009, 3:59 PM
Post #36 of 60
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In reply to: Can anybody document the "wear and tear" a rope incurs on anchors?
Wow, All I have to say is wow. I wonder it this guy has ever even climbed before.
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Gmburns2000
May 8, 2009, 4:01 PM
Post #37 of 60
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retr2327 wrote: I get the theory, but I have my doubts about the practice. Sure, top-roping through aluminum rap rings involves significant wear (and eventually, significant risk), but I'd think that most shuts are a) much beefier; and b) made of much tougher metal. Will there be some wear? Sure, eventually. But will the wear occur faster than degradation of the bolt-hole, etc.? Not so clear. No anchor is good forever. It seems like it's a good idea to use your own gear b/c it's generally a good practice under other circumstances (especially in trad areas, where anchors may be used for multiple routes or rappels), but I can't see getting worked up about some group not doing it.
I wasn't advocating TR'ing. I always add my own draws when setting up a TR. I was only suggesting that lowering is probably slightly safer than rapping because it requires fewer steps in this instance.
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kennoyce
May 8, 2009, 4:05 PM
Post #38 of 60
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In reply to: Once you have been the one to shell out the money and take the time to replace anchors... you'll get it.
I have shelled out the money and taken the time to replace anchors, and I do get it. This is why i have been telling everyone to use their own gear. Are you sure that you were replying to my post?
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jt512
May 8, 2009, 4:09 PM
Post #39 of 60
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docburner wrote: Generally if someone puts up an anchor that you can clip into it is intended to be lowered off of. The reasoning is that this is much safer then setting up to rap, you don't even go off belay or anything, and less people will die at the cost of wearing some community gear. If you decide to donate to the crag use Fish's Mussy hooks, they are probaby cheaper ($5) and will last longer:  http://www.fishproducts.com
I hate those things. Look at the size of the nose. The only time I almost became inadvertently unclipped from an anchor it was from those mussy hooks. Plus, they are hard to clip. So you have the worst of both worlds: hard to clip, easy to unclip.
Jay
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retr2327
May 8, 2009, 4:16 PM
Post #40 of 60
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"I see plenty of routes that have to have the big 1/2" thick quick links replaced yearly."
That sounds pretty convincing to me. I'm surprised, but if that's the case, then people should definitely try to avoid it, at least as a general rule.
That said, I'd still be inclined to make exceptions in those cases where -- for some at least minimally valid reason -- the climber at issue was either relatively inexperienced (raising safety issues) or a 45 pound child (making the wear issue much less important, as well as raising safety issues).
But it's rarely going to be necessary or a good idea to have such a climber be the last one on the route.
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marc801
May 8, 2009, 4:28 PM
Post #41 of 60
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Gmburns2000 wrote: I was only suggesting that lowering is probably slightly safer than rapping because it requires fewer steps in this instance.
If you only have 3/8" chain links (or something similar that's small enough to make passing a bight of rope through it difficult or impossible) at the anchor, there are only two additional steps in rapping: 1) feeding the rope after threading the anchor so both ends are on the ground and 2) threading the rap device.
I don't have any numbers, yet empirically I recall reading about a lot more lowering accidents - miscommunication, end of rope going through belay device, thought they were still on belay while belayer thought the climber was going to rappel (actually saw this one happen - 50' fall from the anchors on a 70' route) - than accidents from rapping a sport route.
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theguy
May 8, 2009, 4:30 PM
Post #42 of 60
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lodi5onu wrote: Lowering doesn't significantly wear the anchors, TRing does
Ah right... that would be because when you're TR'ing, the only weight on the anchor is the weight of the rope (unless you're hang-dogging), whereas when you're lowering, your weight plus your belayer's weight is being held by the anchor, and friction is inversely proportional to the normal force...
Try again...
Gmburns2000 wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: I don't understand why you guys are saying it's safer to lower than it is to rap? I think it's the transition people are talking about.
Woody would agree, if he were still alive.
[Edited for hyperlinking error]
(This post was edited by theguy on May 8, 2009, 4:32 PM)
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rtwilli4
May 8, 2009, 4:39 PM
Post #43 of 60
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Na I was just speaking to everyone. Sorry for the confusion.
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kennoyce
May 8, 2009, 4:43 PM
Post #44 of 60
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Ok, sorry, I was just confused.
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granite_grrl
May 8, 2009, 4:58 PM
Post #45 of 60
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marc801 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: I was only suggesting that lowering is probably slightly safer than rapping because it requires fewer steps in this instance. If you only have 3/8" chain links (or something similar that's small enough to make passing a bight of rope through it difficult or impossible) at the anchor, there are only two additional steps in rapping: 1) feeding the rope after threading the anchor so both ends are on the ground and 2) threading the rap device. I don't have any numbers, yet empirically I recall reading about a lot more lowering accidents - miscommunication, end of rope going through belay device, thought they were still on belay while belayer thought the climber was going to rappel (actually saw this one happen - 50' fall from the anchors on a 70' route) - than accidents from rapping a sport route.
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fitzontherocks
May 8, 2009, 5:38 PM
Post #46 of 60
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cracklover wrote: You're kidding, right? Do a search. Or are you too lazy for that, too? GO
Not lazy. Time-poor. And thanks for the documentation pics, acorneau.
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Gmburns2000
May 8, 2009, 6:02 PM
Post #47 of 60
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marc801 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: I was only suggesting that lowering is probably slightly safer than rapping because it requires fewer steps in this instance. If you only have 3/8" chain links (or something similar that's small enough to make passing a bight of rope through it difficult or impossible) at the anchor, there are only two additional steps in rapping: 1) feeding the rope after threading the anchor so both ends are on the ground and 2) threading the rap device. I don't have any numbers, yet empirically I recall reading about a lot more lowering accidents - miscommunication, end of rope going through belay device, thought they were still on belay while belayer thought the climber was going to rappel (actually saw this one happen - 50' fall from the anchors on a 70' route) - than accidents from rapping a sport route.
Sorry, I thought we were talking about the clip-in anchors. The ones where a bight isn't necessary.
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marc801
May 8, 2009, 7:20 PM
Post #49 of 60
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Gmburns2000 wrote: Sorry, I thought we were talking about the clip-in anchors. The ones where a bight isn't necessary.
There are...
open cold shuts
closed cold shuts
Fixe clip-in shuts
Mussey hooks
3/8" chain links
mallion/quick links of varying size
steel biners
bolts with Metolious rap hangers
Fixe hanger-and-ring anchors
What would be best - lowering vs rapping - can vary depending on:
the experience of the climber
are they cleaning the route?
are they cleaning the anchor?
how overhung is the route?
Like everything else, there isn't a single answer, and, as always....
YMMV
You can do everything right and still die - or at least catch shit from someone.
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Terry2124
May 9, 2009, 3:39 AM
Post #50 of 60
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acorneau wrote: fitzontherocks wrote: Can anybody document the "wear and tear" a rope incurs on anchors? I find it hard to believe that it's that significant, especially compared with the metal-to-metal contact on anchors when someone clips in. Here are some Fixe SS sport anchors that were replaced after only 3 years of use: [image]http://www.erockonline.com/forum/upload/uploads/monthly_12_2006/post-2-1165970858.jpg[/image] [image]http://www.erockonline.com/forum/upload/uploads/monthly_12_2006/post-2-1165970881.jpg[/image] [image]http://www.erockonline.com/forum/upload/uploads/monthly_12_2006/post-2-1165973693.jpg[/image] Here are some other random pictures of rope-wear on hardware: [image]http://www.erockonline.com/forum/upload/uploads/monthly_12_2006/post-33-1165937131.jpg[/image] [image]http://www.erockonline.com/forum/upload/uploads/monthly_12_2006/post-33-1165937161.jpg[/image] [image]http://www.erockonline.com/forum/upload/uploads/monthly_12_2006/post-33-1165937191.jpg[/image] [image]http://www.erockonline.com/forum/upload/uploads/monthly_12_2006/post-33-1165937210.jpg[/image] Still skeptical?
Nice pics, I can't believe they got that bad before they were replaced.
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